Original Posted By: Randy Stockberger
I haven't used T-88 but I know it isn't approved for certified aircraft.All the modern epoxies that I know of won't hold up at high temps. If yourplane will be inside and light colored to reflect the heat you may be OK.A lot of people have used it and I haven't heard of complaints.I know the inside of the wings on my Howard will reach over 200' F if leftout in the summer. Casein, Plastic Resin and Resorcinol are the only FAAApproved glues on certified aircraft. My wings are 55 years old and theglue is still holding good. My structural repair manual calls out Caseinglue but I'm not sure if that is what was used in the manufacture of mywings. If I were building a wood airplane, I'd use Resorcinol.With any glue or any chemical for that matter, Don't buy more than you aregoing to use in a couple months. I don't care what the manufacturers say,they will go bad over time. I remember covering a wing some time back andused old nitrate dope. After a few landings, the finish shattered likeglass. Back to the drawing board! The moral is use fresh materials if youwant a job that will stand the test of time.Paris Wilcox wrote:> Many thanks for all the info on the "poplar Piet" I intend to give the> builder a call tonight...will be happy to share info with any> interested persons....now if somebody could just answer my suppy> question-how much glue(T-88) Nails(is 1/4" a/c brass,concrete coated)> and what kind(specifically)of plywood do I need to get atarted an my> rib gusssetts? I'd really love to know- I'd like to be able to get> started the day the plans get here as time is the limiting factor for> me.(i wish i had started a year ago- too bad we can't all find our> true dreams of a lifetime earlier!)> Many thanks again for all the help- the support here on the net- this> list,BPA page, R Decosta's page, G mclaren's-is INVALUABLE!>> --David B.Schober, CPEInstructor, Aviation MaintenanceFairmont State CollegeNational Aerospace Education CenterRt. 3 Box 13Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503(304) 842-8300________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re:T-88
Pietenpol-List: Re:
Original Posted By: steve(at)byu.edu
>Boil the capstrips 20-30 minutes, NO LONGER, to soften them up.Don't boil them, steam them. I traced the outline of the nose of the uppercap strip on a piece of 2x4 about 14" long and used a band saw to cut thecurve. I boil water in a 12" fry pan, set 3 cap strips across the top andput a large pan lid over the whole mess. I gently steam them for at leasthalf an hour. I clamp them in the jig and let them dry overnight. Thisgives me 3 dry, pre-bent upper cap strips ready to put in the rib jig.I tried boiling them, but the wood got too punky and I wasn't sure what thewet wood would do to the glue.The other trick I use: I was having the devil's own time gluing ribs. Eachrib would get glued in (and to) the jig. When I took the rib out I would dosome damage both to the rib and the jig, so I was spending time repairingthe jig and wasn't very happy with the quality of the ribs. Now, I line thejig with saran wrap. I drape it in with a lot of slack so I can put all thelittle pieces where they belong without stretching it. I have done 4 ribswith the first piece and it is getting a bit rough.I spent a day pre-fabbing all the wood pieces. Now I can build a rib inabout 45 minutes and they are all exactly the same. If I were in a hurry, Icould get up early, do a rib before work, then do another in the evening.Given enough clamps, you could even be building other wood stuff during therest of the evening.Randy Stockbergerstockberger(at)proaxis.com________________________________________________________________________________
>Boil the capstrips 20-30 minutes, NO LONGER, to soften them up.Don't boil them, steam them. I traced the outline of the nose of the uppercap strip on a piece of 2x4 about 14" long and used a band saw to cut thecurve. I boil water in a 12" fry pan, set 3 cap strips across the top andput a large pan lid over the whole mess. I gently steam them for at leasthalf an hour. I clamp them in the jig and let them dry overnight. Thisgives me 3 dry, pre-bent upper cap strips ready to put in the rib jig.I tried boiling them, but the wood got too punky and I wasn't sure what thewet wood would do to the glue.The other trick I use: I was having the devil's own time gluing ribs. Eachrib would get glued in (and to) the jig. When I took the rib out I would dosome damage both to the rib and the jig, so I was spending time repairingthe jig and wasn't very happy with the quality of the ribs. Now, I line thejig with saran wrap. I drape it in with a lot of slack so I can put all thelittle pieces where they belong without stretching it. I have done 4 ribswith the first piece and it is getting a bit rough.I spent a day pre-fabbing all the wood pieces. Now I can build a rib inabout 45 minutes and they are all exactly the same. If I were in a hurry, Icould get up early, do a rib before work, then do another in the evening.Given enough clamps, you could even be building other wood stuff during therest of the evening.Randy Stockbergerstockberger(at)proaxis.com________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re:
Original Posted By: steve(at)byu.edu
Another trick I used to keep ribs from sticking is coat the whole jig inwax. It worked great. I just used a lit candle over the glue points todrip wax on then used a hot air gun to thin and spread it out. I recoatedonce or twice during my 30 copies.Stevee-----Original Message-----Randy StockbergerSent: Monday, May 18, 1998 1:34 PMSubject: Pietenpol-List: Re:>Boil the capstrips 20-30 minutes, NO LONGER, to soften them up.Don't boil them, steam them. I traced the outline of the nose of the uppercap strip on a piece of 2x4 about 14" long and used a band saw to cut thecurve. I boil water in a 12" fry pan, set 3 cap strips across the top andput a large pan lid over the whole mess. I gently steam them for at leasthalf an hour. I clamp them in the jig and let them dry overnight. Thisgives me 3 dry, pre-bent upper cap strips ready to put in the rib jig.I tried boiling them, but the wood got too punky and I wasn't sure what thewet wood would do to the glue.The other trick I use: I was having the devil's own time gluing ribs. Eachrib would get glued in (and to) the jig. When I took the rib out I would dosome damage both to the rib and the jig, so I was spending time repairingthe jig and wasn't very happy with the quality of the ribs. Now, I line thejig with saran wrap. I drape it in with a lot of slack so I can put all thelittle pieces where they belong without stretching it. I have done 4 ribswith the first piece and it is getting a bit rough.I spent a day pre-fabbing all the wood pieces. Now I can build a rib inabout 45 minutes and they are all exactly the same. If I were in a hurry, Icould get up early, do a rib before work, then do another in the evening.Given enough clamps, you could even be building other wood stuff during therest of the evening.Randy Stockbergerstockberger(at)proaxis.com________________________________________________________________________________
Another trick I used to keep ribs from sticking is coat the whole jig inwax. It worked great. I just used a lit candle over the glue points todrip wax on then used a hot air gun to thin and spread it out. I recoatedonce or twice during my 30 copies.Stevee-----Original Message-----Randy StockbergerSent: Monday, May 18, 1998 1:34 PMSubject: Pietenpol-List: Re:>Boil the capstrips 20-30 minutes, NO LONGER, to soften them up.Don't boil them, steam them. I traced the outline of the nose of the uppercap strip on a piece of 2x4 about 14" long and used a band saw to cut thecurve. I boil water in a 12" fry pan, set 3 cap strips across the top andput a large pan lid over the whole mess. I gently steam them for at leasthalf an hour. I clamp them in the jig and let them dry overnight. Thisgives me 3 dry, pre-bent upper cap strips ready to put in the rib jig.I tried boiling them, but the wood got too punky and I wasn't sure what thewet wood would do to the glue.The other trick I use: I was having the devil's own time gluing ribs. Eachrib would get glued in (and to) the jig. When I took the rib out I would dosome damage both to the rib and the jig, so I was spending time repairingthe jig and wasn't very happy with the quality of the ribs. Now, I line thejig with saran wrap. I drape it in with a lot of slack so I can put all thelittle pieces where they belong without stretching it. I have done 4 ribswith the first piece and it is getting a bit rough.I spent a day pre-fabbing all the wood pieces. Now I can build a rib inabout 45 minutes and they are all exactly the same. If I were in a hurry, Icould get up early, do a rib before work, then do another in the evening.Given enough clamps, you could even be building other wood stuff during therest of the evening.Randy Stockbergerstockberger(at)proaxis.com________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: Ian Holland
The last few days in Maine have been very hot & stuffy, with temps in the 90's. I took one of my ribs down from the rack to admire it
and noticed that on days like that the glue feels slightly tacky, and my fingers stick slightly to it. Is this normal behaviour for T-88 in hot, humid weather? Does it have a lot of bearing on the strength of the bond?ThanksRichard DeCostaWeb/CGI Programming - Auto Europe, LLC Web: http://www.autoerope.com Ph: 207-842-2064 Fax: 207-842-2239PERSONAL: http://www.wrld.com/wbuilder___________ ... __________
The last few days in Maine have been very hot & stuffy, with temps in the 90's. I took one of my ribs down from the rack to admire it
and noticed that on days like that the glue feels slightly tacky, and my fingers stick slightly to it. Is this normal behaviour for T-88 in hot, humid weather? Does it have a lot of bearing on the strength of the bond?ThanksRichard DeCostaWeb/CGI Programming - Auto Europe, LLC Web: http://www.autoerope.com Ph: 207-842-2064 Fax: 207-842-2239PERSONAL: http://www.wrld.com/wbuilder___________ ... __________Pietenpol-List: Re: T-88
Original Posted By: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
I did some oven tests about a year ago where I did test strips andheated to about 200 F for 1/2 hour trying to duplicate temperatureswithin the wing. The test strips did not fail on the glue line whensheared, but were very "sticky" and the material that was outside thejoint could be easily penetrated with a thumb nail. Having said that,there are a lot of folks using T-88 with no problem. I elected to useanother type and the " stickiness was only a concern.________________________________________________________________________________
I did some oven tests about a year ago where I did test strips andheated to about 200 F for 1/2 hour trying to duplicate temperatureswithin the wing. The test strips did not fail on the glue line whensheared, but were very "sticky" and the material that was outside thejoint could be easily penetrated with a thumb nail. Having said that,there are a lot of folks using T-88 with no problem. I elected to useanother type and the " stickiness was only a concern.________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: DonanClara(at)aol.com
Howdy, what glue do you use then?Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.ComTim CunninghamDes Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510>What I was trying to say was that t-88 can lay on the wood and notpenetrate.> Working the glue in the joint will help. I have pulled T-88 joints apart>and found that the glue stays one side of the joint. There will be somewood>in the glue that was ripped away, but the glue still pulled off the wood.________________________________________________________________________________
Howdy, what glue do you use then?Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.ComTim CunninghamDes Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510>What I was trying to say was that t-88 can lay on the wood and notpenetrate.> Working the glue in the joint will help. I have pulled T-88 joints apart>and found that the glue stays one side of the joint. There will be somewood>in the glue that was ripped away, but the glue still pulled off the wood.________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: T-88
Original Posted By: Gary Gower
>Howdy, what glue do you use then?Titebond II >Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.Com>Tim Cunningham>Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510>>>What I was trying to say was that t-88 can lay on the wood and not>penetrate.>> Working the glue in the joint will help. I have pulled T-88 joints apart>>and found that the glue stays one side of the joint. There will be some>wood>>in the glue that was ripped away, but the glue still pulled off the wood.>>________________________________________________________________________________
>Howdy, what glue do you use then?Titebond II
>Copinfo(at)ix.Netcom.Com>Tim Cunningham>Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510>>>What I was trying to say was that t-88 can lay on the wood and not>penetrate.>> Working the glue in the joint will help. I have pulled T-88 joints apart>>and found that the glue stays one side of the joint. There will be some>wood>>in the glue that was ripped away, but the glue still pulled off the wood.>>________________________________________________________________________________Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: Kent Hallsten
Gang, one good way of dispensing T-88 is to use the Redi-mix glue gun. The twin cartridges hold the two glues and the mixing tube mixes them precisely when you squeeze the gun. When you're done, just throw away the mixing tube and put a new one on when it's time for the next glue job. There is very little waste, just the residual in the mixing tube. no fuss, no muss. I got mine from Aircraft Spruce. The mixing tubes only cost about $1.50 each.Jeff in beautiful warm Texas________________________________________________________________________________
Gang, one good way of dispensing T-88 is to use the Redi-mix glue gun. The twin cartridges hold the two glues and the mixing tube mixes them precisely when you squeeze the gun. When you're done, just throw away the mixing tube and put a new one on when it's time for the next glue job. There is very little waste, just the residual in the mixing tube. no fuss, no muss. I got mine from Aircraft Spruce. The mixing tubes only cost about $1.50 each.Jeff in beautiful warm Texas________________________________________________________________________________
RE: Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By:> Jeff Hill [mailto:jeff2dogs(at)hotmail.com]
Are the cartridges re fillable? I've been thinking of liberating theWeight Watchers scale from SWMBO, (she doesn't use it, why can't I?) andweighing the T-88 in grams. Should get pretty darn close. I think theratio by weight is something like 1: .83 . > -----Original Message-----
Are the cartridges re fillable? I've been thinking of liberating theWeight Watchers scale from SWMBO, (she doesn't use it, why can't I?) andweighing the T-88 in grams. Should get pretty darn close. I think theratio by weight is something like 1: .83 . > -----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: spar design
Original Posted By: "Ted Brousseau"
this is my first email to this list ive been reading about this box sparfor awile can anybody tell me where i can get plans for one or pictures o.msn.com________________________________________________________________________________
this is my first email to this list ive been reading about this box sparfor awile can anybody tell me where i can get plans for one or pictures o.msn.com________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: photo share- Mr. Sam
Original Posted By: "Michael Brusilow"
Mike,What prop are you running on your 0-200?Ted (working as fast he can to make the 1st annual LA Pietenpol shrimpeating flyin)----- Original Message -----
Mike,What prop are you running on your 0-200?Ted (working as fast he can to make the 1st annual LA Pietenpol shrimpeating flyin)----- Original Message -----
RE: Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By:> "Jeff Hill"
If you need other size syringes, go to a pharmicist and ask about the onesfor giving medicine to babies. They have sizes that might be appropriate.Robert HainesM'boro, IL
If you need other size syringes, go to a pharmicist and ask about the onesfor giving medicine to babies. They have sizes that might be appropriate.Robert HainesM'boro, IL
Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
I am starting my practice project and was wondering a couple of things about T-88.First of all, what is the viscosity of the epoxy after it is mixed in thecorrect ratio. I was using some and it appeared to be thicker than honey. Iwas using a butter knife to spread it in a thin layer to laminate some stocktogether and it took a lot of force to spread into a thin layer. The temp wasabout 60 F so perhaps the cold had something to do with this.To mix in a 50/50 ratio I would lay beads of the epoxy next to one another andmake sure they were the same length and volume.The other question has to do with quality control after joining the parts. Duringthe lamination process, small amounts of the epoxy seeped from between theindividual sticks. After 24 hours these seeps were still slightly tacky. WhenI used my block plane to begin rounding the leading edge, the epoxy was solidand did not cut like it had any elasticity in it. In other words it was notsoft, just slightly sticky on the exposed surface. Is this normal or is thisa sign of an incorrect mixture? If it is an incorrect mixture, any idea ofwhich part had too great of a volume?If you are wondering about my little project, it is a TEAM/ISON/what ever theycall themselves now MiniMax vertical stabilizer. They sell this as a starterkit to allow you to see their plans, constuction techniques and materials. Itcomes with the wood, T-88, plans and some hardware. Not bad for $30. I thoughtthis would be a good way to get my feet wet before jumping in on a Piet.James Nichols________________________________________________________________________________
I am starting my practice project and was wondering a couple of things about T-88.First of all, what is the viscosity of the epoxy after it is mixed in thecorrect ratio. I was using some and it appeared to be thicker than honey. Iwas using a butter knife to spread it in a thin layer to laminate some stocktogether and it took a lot of force to spread into a thin layer. The temp wasabout 60 F so perhaps the cold had something to do with this.To mix in a 50/50 ratio I would lay beads of the epoxy next to one another andmake sure they were the same length and volume.The other question has to do with quality control after joining the parts. Duringthe lamination process, small amounts of the epoxy seeped from between theindividual sticks. After 24 hours these seeps were still slightly tacky. WhenI used my block plane to begin rounding the leading edge, the epoxy was solidand did not cut like it had any elasticity in it. In other words it was notsoft, just slightly sticky on the exposed surface. Is this normal or is thisa sign of an incorrect mixture? If it is an incorrect mixture, any idea ofwhich part had too great of a volume?If you are wondering about my little project, it is a TEAM/ISON/what ever theycall themselves now MiniMax vertical stabilizer. They sell this as a starterkit to allow you to see their plans, constuction techniques and materials. Itcomes with the wood, T-88, plans and some hardware. Not bad for $30. I thoughtthis would be a good way to get my feet wet before jumping in on a Piet.James Nichols________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: cutting carbon fiber layups
Original Posted By: "Jack Phillips"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: cutting carbon fiber layupsIn a message dated 5/5/04 1:52:44 PM Central Daylight Time, Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov writes:>Mike,I have drilled, and cut, a lot of carbon fiber at work. The Hawker Horizon has a carbon fiber fuselage, and stabilizers. To drill, we use 'com cut' bits(composite cut). They have a small notch at the outer cutting edge of the bit. A regular bit seems to walk, even when you start with a #40 pilot hole. The relief of the bit is a little different, too. A regular bit only lasts about 6 or 7 holes, then it needs re-sharpened. I suggest you step drill it, from#40 bit. Carbon fiber is some Hard stuff !! Our hole saws don't have the normal teeth, but instead are diamond tipped, so they don't wear out so quick.The sabre saw blades are diamond tipped, too. Be very careful about the dust. The fibers it makes are so fine, that they easily get in the pores of yourskin, or lungs. You could use normal cutting tools, if you only have one or two holes to do, but be careful not to walk the bit. If you're building a Carbon Fiber Pietenpol, I'm never going to speak to you again !!Chuck G.________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: cutting carbon fiber layupsIn a message dated 5/5/04 1:52:44 PM Central Daylight Time, Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov writes:>Mike,I have drilled, and cut, a lot of carbon fiber at work. The Hawker Horizon has a carbon fiber fuselage, and stabilizers. To drill, we use 'com cut' bits(composite cut). They have a small notch at the outer cutting edge of the bit. A regular bit seems to walk, even when you start with a #40 pilot hole. The relief of the bit is a little different, too. A regular bit only lasts about 6 or 7 holes, then it needs re-sharpened. I suggest you step drill it, from#40 bit. Carbon fiber is some Hard stuff !! Our hole saws don't have the normal teeth, but instead are diamond tipped, so they don't wear out so quick.The sabre saw blades are diamond tipped, too. Be very careful about the dust. The fibers it makes are so fine, that they easily get in the pores of yourskin, or lungs. You could use normal cutting tools, if you only have one or two holes to do, but be careful not to walk the bit. If you're building a Carbon Fiber Pietenpol, I'm never going to speak to you again !!Chuck G.________________________________________________________________________________
RE: Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Sounds like your T-88 worked about like mine. It is pretty thick, but willflow quite a bit in the 12 hours or so it takes to cure. it is pretty goodglue, and does not make the mess that Resorcinol does, but I still preferresorcinol for structural joints. I used T-88 in places where I didn't havean exact fit, or where the squeezed out glue would show, such as in thecockpit area.Jack PhillipsRaleigh, NC-----Original Message-----
Sounds like your T-88 worked about like mine. It is pretty thick, but willflow quite a bit in the 12 hours or so it takes to cure. it is pretty goodglue, and does not make the mess that Resorcinol does, but I still preferresorcinol for structural joints. I used T-88 in places where I didn't havean exact fit, or where the squeezed out glue would show, such as in thecockpit area.Jack PhillipsRaleigh, NC-----Original Message-----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet ride
Original Posted By: "Richard Navratil"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet rideIn a message dated 5/5/04 6:52:09 PM Central Daylight Time, hjarrett(at)hroads.net writes:>Hank,Actually, I kind of like the bounce. Keeps me alert, and being at one with the wing, she lets me know about every little anomoliy in the wind, and thermals. I can predict the ride up ahead, by the color of the field.Chuck G.________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet rideIn a message dated 5/5/04 6:52:09 PM Central Daylight Time, hjarrett(at)hroads.net writes:>Hank,Actually, I kind of like the bounce. Keeps me alert, and being at one with the wing, she lets me know about every little anomoliy in the wind, and thermals. I can predict the ride up ahead, by the color of the field.Chuck G.________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: Jake Nichols
If you want to make it mix and spread easier, try putting it in the microwave for10 sec or so. Abit of heat makes it quite thin. It will also reduce yourpot life.Dick ----- Original Message -----
If you want to make it mix and spread easier, try putting it in the microwave for10 sec or so. Abit of heat makes it quite thin. It will also reduce yourpot life.Dick ----- Original Message -----
Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: Clif Dawson
Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: "Barry Davis"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88James...When you get to the point where you're mixing up larger batches of the T-88, you might want to consider getting a pair of LARGE (I mean MOLY-SIZED- 60cc) hypodermic syringes ..The kind with graduations on the side. I put resin in one and catalyst in the other. Seals are good enough that I don't havea problem with oozing. I keep the two of them in a little rack I built of wood, with the business ends pointing up. This makes for neat and accurate metering...Carl Vought/Huntsville, AL________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88James...When you get to the point where you're mixing up larger batches of the T-88, you might want to consider getting a pair of LARGE (I mean MOLY-SIZED- 60cc) hypodermic syringes ..The kind with graduations on the side. I put resin in one and catalyst in the other. Seals are good enough that I don't havea problem with oozing. I keep the two of them in a little rack I built of wood, with the business ends pointing up. This makes for neat and accurate metering...Carl Vought/Huntsville, AL________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: "Peter W Johnson"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88James, I think that using t-88 below 70 Degrees is a bad practice. I had a cold workshop and found that t-88 can lay on the surface and not penatrate to the pores of the wood. Some test pieces would seperate at the joint with only a small (10%) amout of wood torn from the opposite piece. I think the manfacturerrecommends thinning for good wetting on some woods.Howdy________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88James, I think that using t-88 below 70 Degrees is a bad practice. I had a cold workshop and found that t-88 can lay on the surface and not penatrate to the pores of the wood. Some test pieces would seperate at the joint with only a small (10%) amout of wood torn from the opposite piece. I think the manfacturerrecommends thinning for good wetting on some woods.Howdy________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: "DJ Vegh" (by way of Matt Dralle )
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88 While we're on this subject, can anyone comment on the tendency of the "white"component of T-88 to crystalize and get VERY viscose. I've bought two kits andafter a time, the same thing has happened to both of them. Can the crystalsbe put back into solution by heating the container in boiling water? ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 22:50:25 -0700
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88 While we're on this subject, can anyone comment on the tendency of the "white"component of T-88 to crystalize and get VERY viscose. I've bought two kits andafter a time, the same thing has happened to both of them. Can the crystalsbe put back into solution by heating the container in boiling water? ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 22:50:25 -0700
Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: "Douwe Blumberg"
Well, here's a subject I can express an opinion on since my "Flying Squirrel" is wood framed and is assembled with T-88 so I have some experience with it. Living in Oregon when I did all the wood construction, my workshop was rarely out of the 50's or 60's and I never had a problem with the T-88 developing full strength and solidifying. As a matter of fact, it was a relief to me to read that this is one of the benefits of T-88 (ability to use effectively at lower temperatures). The first time I mixed some up I used hypodermics to accurately measure quantities, but that was the only time. From then on I mixed it by eye and again, never had any problems with joints developing full strength. The ratio is very important, but not ultra-critical.My recommendations go along with the others already mentioned: don't clamp too tightly, make sure you get squeeze-out to ensure a full joint, make sure your joints are held firmly in place so things don't creep or slide during cure, and when you mix the two parts you should have something the consistency of honey that you spread onto the surfaces to be glued. I use plain, small, Dixie-type cups and plain wood tongue depressors to mix my epoxy. You can pay more for these by ordering them from an aircraft supply, but what for? After buying my first lot from one of the suppliers and then seeing the very same thing in my local Costco store for 30% less cost, I never went back.I've had to "unglue" or remove things that were glued and cured, and I can say with confidence that (with Douglas fir, anyway) my glue joints were stronger than the wood fibers they were bonded to.Oscar ZunigaSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net________________________________________________________________________________
Well, here's a subject I can express an opinion on since my "Flying Squirrel" is wood framed and is assembled with T-88 so I have some experience with it. Living in Oregon when I did all the wood construction, my workshop was rarely out of the 50's or 60's and I never had a problem with the T-88 developing full strength and solidifying. As a matter of fact, it was a relief to me to read that this is one of the benefits of T-88 (ability to use effectively at lower temperatures). The first time I mixed some up I used hypodermics to accurately measure quantities, but that was the only time. From then on I mixed it by eye and again, never had any problems with joints developing full strength. The ratio is very important, but not ultra-critical.My recommendations go along with the others already mentioned: don't clamp too tightly, make sure you get squeeze-out to ensure a full joint, make sure your joints are held firmly in place so things don't creep or slide during cure, and when you mix the two parts you should have something the consistency of honey that you spread onto the surfaces to be glued. I use plain, small, Dixie-type cups and plain wood tongue depressors to mix my epoxy. You can pay more for these by ordering them from an aircraft supply, but what for? After buying my first lot from one of the suppliers and then seeing the very same thing in my local Costco store for 30% less cost, I never went back.I've had to "unglue" or remove things that were glued and cured, and I can say with confidence that (with Douglas fir, anyway) my glue joints were stronger than the wood fibers they were bonded to.Oscar ZunigaSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: "Oscar Zuniga"
One additional note.....do not use waxedDixie cups. Any wax willdegrade T-88's holding power.Greg Cardinal----- Original Message -----
One additional note.....do not use waxedDixie cups. Any wax willdegrade T-88's holding power.Greg Cardinal----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: "Laurits Larsen"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88While we're on this subject, can anyone comment on the tendency of the "white" component of T-88 to crystalize and get VERY viscose. I've bought two kitsand after a time, the same thing has happened to both of them. Can the crystalsbe put back into solution by heating the container in boiling water?________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88While we're on this subject, can anyone comment on the tendency of the "white" component of T-88 to crystalize and get VERY viscose. I've bought two kitsand after a time, the same thing has happened to both of them. Can the crystalsbe put back into solution by heating the container in boiling water?________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: Carbarvo(at)aol.com
Hi:I experienced the same thing and took the easy way out; just set the plastic bottlein the sun for an afternoon. The problems was solved.Currently welding an intake manifold for my 'A' for my new Solex 'Jeep' downdraftcarburetor.Lou Larsen ----- Original Message -----
Hi:I experienced the same thing and took the easy way out; just set the plastic bottlein the sun for an afternoon. The problems was solved.Currently welding an intake manifold for my 'A' for my new Solex 'Jeep' downdraftcarburetor.Lou Larsen ----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: "Bill Budgell"
The "white" component of T-88 does tend to granulate over time, but this is easilycorrected by placing the container in hot (not boiling) water until it liquifiesonce more. This doesn't seem to produce an adverse effect on its adhesivequalities, and it is a safe method. Hot air would also do the trick, but Ihave found hot water to be quite effective.Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN)________________________________________________________________________________
The "white" component of T-88 does tend to granulate over time, but this is easilycorrected by placing the container in hot (not boiling) water until it liquifiesonce more. This doesn't seem to produce an adverse effect on its adhesivequalities, and it is a safe method. Hot air would also do the trick, but Ihave found hot water to be quite effective.Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN)________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: Carbarvo(at)aol.com
yes -----Original Message-----
yes -----Original Message-----
Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: "Oscar Zuniga"
"I use plain, small, Dixie-type cups" Oscar said.I thought that the T-88 instruction say to NOT use Dixie cups as the wax inthem will screw up the epoxy bonding ability.Chris----- Original Message -----
"I use plain, small, Dixie-type cups" Oscar said.I thought that the T-88 instruction say to NOT use Dixie cups as the wax inthem will screw up the epoxy bonding ability.Chris----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: Fred Weaver
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88
> Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: Clif Dawson
Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: At7000ft(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88I go to a Pharmacy Supply Store and buy little calibrated clear plastic cups...Carl Vought/Huntsville, AL________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88I go to a Pharmacy Supply Store and buy little calibrated clear plastic cups...Carl Vought/Huntsville, AL________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: "DJ Vegh"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88Sorry to be off topic but why would someone need a Dixie cup to brush their teeth?Chris.... The small Dixie cups you use for brushing your teeth don't have the wax.________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88Sorry to be off topic but why would someone need a Dixie cup to brush their teeth?Chris.... The small Dixie cups you use for brushing your teeth don't have the wax.________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: Clif Dawson
Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: "Oscar Zuniga"
I put it in the microwave and that works great to "un-crystallize", with the caution that you don't want to overheat it. If you do, the liquid is so runny that it becomes difficult to meter it out.Oscar ZunigaSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net_________________________________________________________________Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07 ... __________
I put it in the microwave and that works great to "un-crystallize", with the caution that you don't want to overheat it. If you do, the liquid is so runny that it becomes difficult to meter it out.Oscar ZunigaSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net_________________________________________________________________Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07 ... __________
Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: "Graham Hansen"
Harvey; as far as I know, there is no chemical change happening when I microwave the epoxy component that has crystallized. The microwave energy only acts to heat up the material just like it does to a soy burger when you pop it in and beep it.Oscar ZunigaSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net_________________________________________________________________MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. Get expert picks by style, age, and price. Try it! http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ct ... 6,ptnrdata 0601&tcode=wlmtagline________________________________________________________________________________
Harvey; as far as I know, there is no chemical change happening when I microwave the epoxy component that has crystallized. The microwave energy only acts to heat up the material just like it does to a soy burger when you pop it in and beep it.Oscar ZunigaSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net_________________________________________________________________MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. Get expert picks by style, age, and price. Try it! http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ct ... 6,ptnrdata 0601&tcode=wlmtagline________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: shad bell
Group,It doesn't seem to affect the T-88 resin (the white stuff)when it is heated to return it to a liquid state. I have some T-88 I bought back in the 1980's, and I have re-heated the resin perhaps ten times since then. For some time I have used it for non-aircraft applications and would not hesitate to use it on aircraft because it has always proved to be reliable when joining both hard and soft woods used in other projects.Granulation of the resin component is very similar to what can happen to honey after a time, and it can be liquified in exactly the same way: by heating the container. (I'd be a bit hesitant about using the microwave for this and have always placed the container in a pot of hot water.)Graham Hansen Pietenpol CF-AUN in Alberta ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 16:46:15 -0800 (PST)
Group,It doesn't seem to affect the T-88 resin (the white stuff)when it is heated to return it to a liquid state. I have some T-88 I bought back in the 1980's, and I have re-heated the resin perhaps ten times since then. For some time I have used it for non-aircraft applications and would not hesitate to use it on aircraft because it has always proved to be reliable when joining both hard and soft woods used in other projects.Granulation of the resin component is very similar to what can happen to honey after a time, and it can be liquified in exactly the same way: by heating the container. (I'd be a bit hesitant about using the microwave for this and have always placed the container in a pot of hot water.)Graham Hansen Pietenpol CF-AUN in Alberta ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 16:46:15 -0800 (PST)
Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: dslane(at)logical.net
Pietenpol-List:
Original Posted By: dslane(at)logical.net
Re: Pietenpol-List: bungee cord
Original Posted By:
DonOrder 25 ft of 1/2" bungee. That will give you more than enough for both sides. You will need 4 wraps and you will have to play with it to give the right tension. Don't cut off the excess till you are really sure it's on for the last time. Having extra cord will save the back of the person doing the pulling.Dick N.----- Original Message -----
DonOrder 25 ft of 1/2" bungee. That will give you more than enough for both sides. You will need 4 wraps and you will have to play with it to give the right tension. Don't cut off the excess till you are really sure it's on for the last time. Having extra cord will save the back of the person doing the pulling.Dick N.----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: Matt Dralle
RE: Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By:
RE: Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By:
RE: Pietenpol-List: bungee cord
Original Posted By: "Phillips, Jack"
Pietenpol-List: bungee cord
Original Posted By: Jeff Boatright
RE: Pietenpol-List: CG-whats the sweet spot
Original Posted By: "Phillips, Jack"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: CG-whats the sweet spotIn a message dated 12/8/2006 9:40:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jboatri(at)emory.edu writes:I believe the mini-max drivers like their CG right near the aft of its>published limit.I remember watching a King(?) video saying that flying with CG at aft limit could make your plane cruise faster and more economically. Something to the effect that it requires less elevator to control pitch..thereby reducing drag....just DON'T GO TOO FAR AFT!!!!Boyce________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: CG-whats the sweet spotDate: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 09:47:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: CG-whats the sweet spotIn a message dated 12/8/2006 9:40:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jboatri(at)emory.edu writes:I believe the mini-max drivers like their CG right near the aft of its>published limit.I remember watching a King(?) video saying that flying with CG at aft limit could make your plane cruise faster and more economically. Something to the effect that it requires less elevator to control pitch..thereby reducing drag....just DON'T GO TOO FAR AFT!!!!Boyce________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: CG-whats the sweet spotDate: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 09:47:04 -0500
RE: Pietenpol-List: CG-whats the sweet spot
Original Posted By: "Phillips, Jack"
Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: Kirk Huizenga
Being through 2 projects using T-88, I think everyone is going off on a tangent with this.Rarely do you have to mix enough glue to have to weigh it.When building my Piet, I used only 1 1/2 of the kits that someone showed a pic of.That's without starving joints, with all the joints up to spec.When I mixed glue for a normal glueing session, I used an old saucer from the cabinet that was a throwaway.Just cut the nozzles at the same length, to get equal bead widths.Simply run two beads along side each other, making sure you don't stretch the beads or pile them up.T-88 is equal amounts per volume. So equal lengths + equal widths = GoodGo to the drug store and buy tongue depressors. Grab the end in your teeth and pull it and split it long ways.Now you have 2 applicators.Make beads 1 1/2" long and you can do a rib or more.Only time I mixed in cups, is when I glued, like the ply to the fuse side.If you need more ,,mix more. Just don't touch either bottle to what's left of the old mix. It'll mess the full bottle.When done,,wipe the plate with a paper towel.After awhile you can chip off the old glue layers with an old wood chisel by hand.Also T-88 is amazing, cause it works just as well on wet wood!Check the specwalt evansNX140DL________________________________________________________________________________
Being through 2 projects using T-88, I think everyone is going off on a tangent with this.Rarely do you have to mix enough glue to have to weigh it.When building my Piet, I used only 1 1/2 of the kits that someone showed a pic of.That's without starving joints, with all the joints up to spec.When I mixed glue for a normal glueing session, I used an old saucer from the cabinet that was a throwaway.Just cut the nozzles at the same length, to get equal bead widths.Simply run two beads along side each other, making sure you don't stretch the beads or pile them up.T-88 is equal amounts per volume. So equal lengths + equal widths = GoodGo to the drug store and buy tongue depressors. Grab the end in your teeth and pull it and split it long ways.Now you have 2 applicators.Make beads 1 1/2" long and you can do a rib or more.Only time I mixed in cups, is when I glued, like the ply to the fuse side.If you need more ,,mix more. Just don't touch either bottle to what's left of the old mix. It'll mess the full bottle.When done,,wipe the plate with a paper towel.After awhile you can chip off the old glue layers with an old wood chisel by hand.Also T-88 is amazing, cause it works just as well on wet wood!Check the specwalt evansNX140DL________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
You may be right Walt. For what it is worth, it is equal amounts by volume, but if you do weigh it is 100/83 Resin to Hardener (at least it was when I called System Three a number of years ago)Just an FYI for us with scales that sometimes mix up bigger batches and like spreadsheetsKirkOn Apr 21, 2009, at 2:47 PM, walt wrote:> Being through 2 projects using T-88, I think everyone is going off > on a tangent with this.> Rarely do you have to mix enough glue to have to weigh it.> When building my Piet, I used only 1 1/2 of the kits that someone > showed a pic of.> That's without starving joints, with all the joints up to spec.> When I mixed glue for a normal glueing session, I used an old saucer > from the cabinet that was a throwaway.> Just cut the nozzles at the same length, to get equal bead widths.> Simply run two beads along side each other, making sure you don't > stretch the beads or pile them up.> T-88 is equal amounts per volume. So equal lengths + equal widths = > Good> Go to the drug store and buy tongue depressors. Grab the end in > your teeth and pull it and split it long ways.> Now you have 2 applicators.> Make beads 1 1/2" long and you can do a rib or more.>> Only time I mixed in cups, is when I glued, like the ply to the fuse > side.>> If you need more ,,mix more. Just don't touch either bottle to > what's left of the old mix. It'll mess the full bottle.>> When done,,wipe the plate with a paper towel.> After awhile you can chip off the old glue layers with an old wood > chisel by hand.>> Also T-88 is amazing, cause it works just as well on wet wood!> Check the spec>> walt evans> NX140DL>>________________________________________________________________________________
You may be right Walt. For what it is worth, it is equal amounts by volume, but if you do weigh it is 100/83 Resin to Hardener (at least it was when I called System Three a number of years ago)Just an FYI for us with scales that sometimes mix up bigger batches and like spreadsheetsKirkOn Apr 21, 2009, at 2:47 PM, walt wrote:> Being through 2 projects using T-88, I think everyone is going off > on a tangent with this.> Rarely do you have to mix enough glue to have to weigh it.> When building my Piet, I used only 1 1/2 of the kits that someone > showed a pic of.> That's without starving joints, with all the joints up to spec.> When I mixed glue for a normal glueing session, I used an old saucer > from the cabinet that was a throwaway.> Just cut the nozzles at the same length, to get equal bead widths.> Simply run two beads along side each other, making sure you don't > stretch the beads or pile them up.> T-88 is equal amounts per volume. So equal lengths + equal widths = > Good> Go to the drug store and buy tongue depressors. Grab the end in > your teeth and pull it and split it long ways.> Now you have 2 applicators.> Make beads 1 1/2" long and you can do a rib or more.>> Only time I mixed in cups, is when I glued, like the ply to the fuse > side.>> If you need more ,,mix more. Just don't touch either bottle to > what's left of the old mix. It'll mess the full bottle.>> When done,,wipe the plate with a paper towel.> After awhile you can chip off the old glue layers with an old wood > chisel by hand.>> Also T-88 is amazing, cause it works just as well on wet wood!> Check the spec>> walt evans> NX140DL>>________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: "walt"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88you guys are killing me here with all that measuring I count rather than scale. I use west systems epoxy from west marine great stuff and the mix is simple one pump of resin and one pump of hardner into my little black plastic Quiznos cup, get the wooded coffee stirrer from the local 7-11 or equivalent convenience store and get out the flux brush for some serious gluing. I make up a batch and use it all up at a couple of different sites sonone of it goes to waste. Now that's gluin, life is good!John **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DAprilfooter421NO62)________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88you guys are killing me here with all that measuring I count rather than scale. I use west systems epoxy from west marine great stuff and the mix is simple one pump of resin and one pump of hardner into my little black plastic Quiznos cup, get the wooded coffee stirrer from the local 7-11 or equivalent convenience store and get out the flux brush for some serious gluing. I make up a batch and use it all up at a couple of different sites sonone of it goes to waste. Now that's gluin, life is good!John **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DAprilfooter421NO62)________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88
Original Posted By: Kirk Huizenga
Kirk,Don't get me wrong.You are absolutly right in your figuring.On my first project, I got all the cups and things.But then realized,,,you don't need that much!So much is wasted in a cup.That's way I wrote what I wrotewalt evansNX140DL ----- Original Message -----
Kirk,Don't get me wrong.You are absolutly right in your figuring.On my first project, I got all the cups and things.But then realized,,,you don't need that much!So much is wasted in a cup.That's way I wrote what I wrotewalt evansNX140DL ----- Original Message -----