Original Posted By: Nahuel Garavaglia
Nahuel,I have some info as soon as i get time I'll dig it out of my collection andemail to you. Also us your search engineto look things up, theres a lot of infoon the ea-81, ea-71 and the bigger oneEA-92 (16 LBS. heavier few more hp.on the internet however if you planon using a ea-81 in a PietenpolI would plan on a reduction drive. do search on +EA-81 SUBARUyou'll find more info than you can imagine. -----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Subaru engine
Pietenpol-List: Subaru engine
Original Posted By: Graham Hansen
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Subaru engine>Hi!, >Did anybody have information about mounting a subaru ea65 engine on a>piet?>>And anybody have plans to build a reduction for a subaru ea81?>>thanks>>>===>Nahuel Garavaglia>>ngarav(at)yahoo.com>>________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Subaru engine>Hi!, >Did anybody have information about mounting a subaru ea65 engine on a>piet?>>And anybody have plans to build a reduction for a subaru ea81?>>thanks>>>===>Nahuel Garavaglia>>ngarav(at)yahoo.com>>________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Subaru engine
Original Posted By: Nahuel Garavaglia
Hi!, Did anybody have information about mounting a subaru ea65 engine on apiet?And anybody have plans to build a reduction for a subaru ea81?thanks===Nahuel Garavagliangarav(at)yahoo.com________________________________________________________________________________
Hi!, Did anybody have information about mounting a subaru ea65 engine on apiet?And anybody have plans to build a reduction for a subaru ea81?thanks===Nahuel Garavagliangarav(at)yahoo.com________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Subaru engine
Original Posted By: "twinboom"
Fisherman,Don't believe the guy that said an EA81 engine came out of a 1995 car! Subaru only put this model engine in cars up to about 1984.EA81, doesn't refer to any year car, the designation is only that of themodel engine. It is a pushrod operated overhead cam engine withhorizonally opposed cylinders, (four cylinders) and displaces 1800 cc. About 109 cu. inches. Are you a member of an EAA chapter? Maybe the Tech Advisor (if thechapter has one) could help you with many of the questions you haveabout building your Pietenpol. They are good guys with a lot ofexperience and well worth getting aquainted with.Cheers,John DilatushSalida, Colorado________________________________________________________________________________
Fisherman,Don't believe the guy that said an EA81 engine came out of a 1995 car! Subaru only put this model engine in cars up to about 1984.EA81, doesn't refer to any year car, the designation is only that of themodel engine. It is a pushrod operated overhead cam engine withhorizonally opposed cylinders, (four cylinders) and displaces 1800 cc. About 109 cu. inches. Are you a member of an EAA chapter? Maybe the Tech Advisor (if thechapter has one) could help you with many of the questions you haveabout building your Pietenpol. They are good guys with a lot ofexperience and well worth getting aquainted with.Cheers,John DilatushSalida, Colorado________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Subaru engine
Original Posted By: Kip & Beth Gardner
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Subaru engine
Original Posted By:> Fisherman Caye
> [Original Message]
> [Original Message]
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Subaru engine
Original Posted By: Fisherman Caye
"Fisherman" wrote: The only real attraction for me, for these 40 year old motors, like theCorvair, Continental and such; is the massive amount of experience, partsand technical detail on the aircraft conversions. You can find out things.For a dummy like me, trying to convert a modern engine, which I have nodoubt has to be better than an old Corvair, means a higher technical skillthan I possess and not much in the way of tools either. But metallurgy haschanged a lot. I would guess that the old farts that got their expertise in40 year old engines dominate the Experimental homebuilding category. Thenew younger guys won't become popular and build a backlog of experience andtechnical data for some years yet in today's model engines. Sort of a catch 22 situtation. I think some of these later model enginesjust have to be better with 16 valves and all. But building a reductiongear for one, and doing all you have to do, with my non-knowledge is fraughtwith difficulty. I need a good mechanic friend, is what I think?Don't scoff too much at 40 year old aircraft engines. Remember that untilsolid-state electronics developed in the early 60's, "high tech" generallymeant aviation or space technology. Aircraft engines have had such thingsas liquid sodium filled valves (to allow higher temperature operation) sincethe 1930's, possibly earlier (I can't remember if the Wright Whirlwinds hadthem or if Pratt & Whitney developed them).I frequently have discussions with a neighbor of mine who is into dragracing. He generally scoffs at the low horsepower per displacement ofaircraft engines, particularly when compared to an auto engine modified fordrag racing. He gets over 600 horsepower from a 350 cubic inch engine, heclaims, yet a 360 cubic inch Lycoming only gets at most 200 horsepower.What he doesn't realize, and a lot of people looking at auto engineconversions for aircraft also ignore, is that an automobile engine isdesigned to only put out full power for a few seconds at a time. Airplaneengines are designed to deliver full power continuously. The difference ishuge. I asked my drag racing friend how many races he can get out of his600 hp 350 before he has to tear it down and rebuild it. He said he canusually get 10 or 12 races between rebuilds. Then I asked him how manyrevolutions he turns in one race. He figured he turns his engine over maybe600 revolutions per race, with another 400 revolutions idling before andafter. If he is getting 12 races, with 1000 revolutions per race, he isgetting only 12,000 revolutions between overhauls! Compare that to aLycoming's 2000 HOURS between overhauls (which happens to be 300 billionrevolutions at 2500 RPM) and you see that at full power, the aircraft enginehas a useful life 25,000 times greater.As John Dilatush has said, if you really want to use an auto engine, followsomeone else's lead and use something proven, like a corvair. If you wantto break new ground, go ahead but realize that building an airplane isnothing compared to developing an engine. Most modern engines will requirea reduction drive, unless they are so heavy and put out so much power (likethe 350 Chevy direct drive engine in the Sauser P-6E) that they would simplyoverload a light airplane like a Pietenpol. Reduction drives are not simplethings to design. Indeed, they are extremely complex and require a lot ofpretty sophisticated dynamic analysis, to avoid harmonic vibrations betweenthe crankshaft and propeller. Ever thought what happens to the drive gearsif the cruising RPM of the engine happens to deliver a power pulse from oneof the pistons at the same point in the cycle every time? If the resonantfrequency of the drive system, or any component of the drive system happensto be near that point the whole thing can come apart in a hurry. SportAviation had a good article on Fred Geschwender and his gear reductiondrives a couple of years ago, talking about the difficulties of making agood reduction drive.I don't mean to discourage you (well, maybe I do). But I want you torealize what you are undertaking.Jack PhillipsRaleigh, NCVery happy with my 57 year old Continental A-65, and its ability to put out65 reliable horsepower continuously for at least 1500 hours________________________________________________________________________________Date: 2 Feb 2002 15:38:08 -0800
"Fisherman" wrote: The only real attraction for me, for these 40 year old motors, like theCorvair, Continental and such; is the massive amount of experience, partsand technical detail on the aircraft conversions. You can find out things.For a dummy like me, trying to convert a modern engine, which I have nodoubt has to be better than an old Corvair, means a higher technical skillthan I possess and not much in the way of tools either. But metallurgy haschanged a lot. I would guess that the old farts that got their expertise in40 year old engines dominate the Experimental homebuilding category. Thenew younger guys won't become popular and build a backlog of experience andtechnical data for some years yet in today's model engines. Sort of a catch 22 situtation. I think some of these later model enginesjust have to be better with 16 valves and all. But building a reductiongear for one, and doing all you have to do, with my non-knowledge is fraughtwith difficulty. I need a good mechanic friend, is what I think?Don't scoff too much at 40 year old aircraft engines. Remember that untilsolid-state electronics developed in the early 60's, "high tech" generallymeant aviation or space technology. Aircraft engines have had such thingsas liquid sodium filled valves (to allow higher temperature operation) sincethe 1930's, possibly earlier (I can't remember if the Wright Whirlwinds hadthem or if Pratt & Whitney developed them).I frequently have discussions with a neighbor of mine who is into dragracing. He generally scoffs at the low horsepower per displacement ofaircraft engines, particularly when compared to an auto engine modified fordrag racing. He gets over 600 horsepower from a 350 cubic inch engine, heclaims, yet a 360 cubic inch Lycoming only gets at most 200 horsepower.What he doesn't realize, and a lot of people looking at auto engineconversions for aircraft also ignore, is that an automobile engine isdesigned to only put out full power for a few seconds at a time. Airplaneengines are designed to deliver full power continuously. The difference ishuge. I asked my drag racing friend how many races he can get out of his600 hp 350 before he has to tear it down and rebuild it. He said he canusually get 10 or 12 races between rebuilds. Then I asked him how manyrevolutions he turns in one race. He figured he turns his engine over maybe600 revolutions per race, with another 400 revolutions idling before andafter. If he is getting 12 races, with 1000 revolutions per race, he isgetting only 12,000 revolutions between overhauls! Compare that to aLycoming's 2000 HOURS between overhauls (which happens to be 300 billionrevolutions at 2500 RPM) and you see that at full power, the aircraft enginehas a useful life 25,000 times greater.As John Dilatush has said, if you really want to use an auto engine, followsomeone else's lead and use something proven, like a corvair. If you wantto break new ground, go ahead but realize that building an airplane isnothing compared to developing an engine. Most modern engines will requirea reduction drive, unless they are so heavy and put out so much power (likethe 350 Chevy direct drive engine in the Sauser P-6E) that they would simplyoverload a light airplane like a Pietenpol. Reduction drives are not simplethings to design. Indeed, they are extremely complex and require a lot ofpretty sophisticated dynamic analysis, to avoid harmonic vibrations betweenthe crankshaft and propeller. Ever thought what happens to the drive gearsif the cruising RPM of the engine happens to deliver a power pulse from oneof the pistons at the same point in the cycle every time? If the resonantfrequency of the drive system, or any component of the drive system happensto be near that point the whole thing can come apart in a hurry. SportAviation had a good article on Fred Geschwender and his gear reductiondrives a couple of years ago, talking about the difficulties of making agood reduction drive.I don't mean to discourage you (well, maybe I do). But I want you torealize what you are undertaking.Jack PhillipsRaleigh, NCVery happy with my 57 year old Continental A-65, and its ability to put out65 reliable horsepower continuously for at least 1500 hours________________________________________________________________________________Date: 2 Feb 2002 15:38:08 -0800
Pietenpol-List: Subaru engine
Original Posted By: "Fisherman Caye"
For those still interested in the Subaru engines -- look up "Airsoob" inyour favorite search engine -- Yahoo has archives back '97 -- Dragonfly guysare running direct drive only because they can (fast cruise & low dragairframe)Suba have been my favorite "commute" -- engine is a long running (150keasy -- longer with good care -- even then the cylinder bore is real good --.005 (??) ridge) Engine dry weight = 180# less radiator (use a VW Rabbitplastic on!) Negatives -- Cam shaft runs in the case without bearings --like the old "Bugs" (before '67 -- don't ask why I know! ;-)Dark thought -- (1) VW may not fly a Piet -- but (2) of them would supplythe same prop disk as a 72" dia prop -- I remember a guy at EAA conventionat Rockford, IL (old days!!) named Lacey that rigged up his plane with (2)VWs with a frame work off the fire wall -- the 2 engines were 2 1/2ft eachside of center line -- he said it flew about as good as with the c-85 ithad the year before (!?)Too bad the old Olds 215cu in V-8 is scarce (what Steve Wittman used in hisO&O Special)-- enough cubes, direct drive, & the look of a "baby Hisso" inyour Piet!!If anyone finds out more about the "Iron Duke" Piet, please let us know --It's a real common engine (like the S-10 & S-15 pickups )Mike C.Pretty Prairie, KS----- Original Message -----
For those still interested in the Subaru engines -- look up "Airsoob" inyour favorite search engine -- Yahoo has archives back '97 -- Dragonfly guysare running direct drive only because they can (fast cruise & low dragairframe)Suba have been my favorite "commute" -- engine is a long running (150keasy -- longer with good care -- even then the cylinder bore is real good --.005 (??) ridge) Engine dry weight = 180# less radiator (use a VW Rabbitplastic on!) Negatives -- Cam shaft runs in the case without bearings --like the old "Bugs" (before '67 -- don't ask why I know! ;-)Dark thought -- (1) VW may not fly a Piet -- but (2) of them would supplythe same prop disk as a 72" dia prop -- I remember a guy at EAA conventionat Rockford, IL (old days!!) named Lacey that rigged up his plane with (2)VWs with a frame work off the fire wall -- the 2 engines were 2 1/2ft eachside of center line -- he said it flew about as good as with the c-85 ithad the year before (!?)Too bad the old Olds 215cu in V-8 is scarce (what Steve Wittman used in hisO&O Special)-- enough cubes, direct drive, & the look of a "baby Hisso" inyour Piet!!If anyone finds out more about the "Iron Duke" Piet, please let us know --It's a real common engine (like the S-10 & S-15 pickups )Mike C.Pretty Prairie, KS----- Original Message -----
RE: Pietenpol-List: Subaru engine
Original Posted By: "Christian Bobka"
-----Original Message-----Subaru Negatives -- Cam shaft runs in the case without bearings --like the old "Bugs" (before '67 -- don't ask why I know!
-Nothing wrong with that, Mike. My Continental A-65 camshaft runs directlyin the case with no bearings. Camshaft journals don't see a lot of load,and the cam in the Continental runs at 1/2 crankshaft speed.Too bad the old Olds 215cu in V-8 is scarce (what Steve Wittman used in hisO&O Special)-- enough cubes, direct drive, & the look of a "baby Hisso" inyour Piet!!I think you're referring to the Buick aluminum block V-8 that they offeredin 1962. It is a very good engine, but GM decided in their infinite wisdomthat no one would want a small V-8, so they sold the whole thing, includingall the tooling, to Rover. What do you think powers all those Land Roverstoday? Same engine. A friend of mine has three of those engines, plus alot of spare parts. I have thought about doing a conversion project on itusing one of his engines, but the same arguments that have already surfacedhave held me back. It would be a lot of trouble to develop something with apower to weight ratio inferior to a certified aircraft engine and withquestionable reliability. It would look cool, though.Jack________________________________________________________________________________
-----Original Message-----Subaru Negatives -- Cam shaft runs in the case without bearings --like the old "Bugs" (before '67 -- don't ask why I know!
-Nothing wrong with that, Mike. My Continental A-65 camshaft runs directlyin the case with no bearings. Camshaft journals don't see a lot of load,and the cam in the Continental runs at 1/2 crankshaft speed.Too bad the old Olds 215cu in V-8 is scarce (what Steve Wittman used in hisO&O Special)-- enough cubes, direct drive, & the look of a "baby Hisso" inyour Piet!!I think you're referring to the Buick aluminum block V-8 that they offeredin 1962. It is a very good engine, but GM decided in their infinite wisdomthat no one would want a small V-8, so they sold the whole thing, includingall the tooling, to Rover. What do you think powers all those Land Roverstoday? Same engine. A friend of mine has three of those engines, plus alot of spare parts. I have thought about doing a conversion project on itusing one of his engines, but the same arguments that have already surfacedhave held me back. It would be a lot of trouble to develop something with apower to weight ratio inferior to a certified aircraft engine and withquestionable reliability. It would look cool, though.Jack________________________________________________________________________________RE: Pietenpol-List: Subaru engine
Original Posted By: Larry Neal
Original Posted By: "Oscar Zuniga"
>Unfortunately, I do not know much about engines, outside of small marine>diesels.Ray,There are a couple groups doing research on diesel engines for aircraft use.What can you tell us about small marine diesels:Weight?Power output?What RPM the power is made at?Pietenpols can use relatively heavy engines and look good with a radiator.Skip, an almost old fart(53) Corvair guy.________________________________________________________________________________
>Unfortunately, I do not know much about engines, outside of small marine>diesels.Ray,There are a couple groups doing research on diesel engines for aircraft use.What can you tell us about small marine diesels:Weight?Power output?What RPM the power is made at?Pietenpols can use relatively heavy engines and look good with a radiator.Skip, an almost old fart(53) Corvair guy.________________________________________________________________________________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Subaru engine
Original Posted By: del magsam
> >Unfortunately, I do not know much about engines, outside of small marine> >diesels.> > Ray,> There are a couple groups doing research on diesel engines for aircraft use.> What can you tell us about small marine diesels:> Weight?> Power output?> What RPM the power is made at?> > Pietenpols can use relatively heavy engines and look good with a radiator.> Skip, an almost old fart(53) Corvair guy.> > FindLaw - Free Case Law, Jobs, Library, Communityhttp://www.FindLaw.comGet your FREE @JUSTICE.COM email!http://mail.Justice.com________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 16:41:59 -0800 (PST)
> >Unfortunately, I do not know much about engines, outside of small marine> >diesels.> > Ray,> There are a couple groups doing research on diesel engines for aircraft use.> What can you tell us about small marine diesels:> Weight?> Power output?> What RPM the power is made at?> > Pietenpols can use relatively heavy engines and look good with a radiator.> Skip, an almost old fart(53) Corvair guy.> > FindLaw - Free Case Law, Jobs, Library, Communityhttp://www.FindLaw.comGet your FREE @JUSTICE.COM email!http://mail.Justice.com________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 16:41:59 -0800 (PST)
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Subaru engine
Original Posted By: "Jack Phillips"
> > >Unfortunately, I do not know much about engines, outside of smallmarine> > >diesels.> >> > Ray,> > There are a couple groups doing research on diesel engines for aircraftuse.> > What can you tell us about small marine diesels:> > Weight?> > Power output?> > What RPM the power is made at?> >> > Pietenpols can use relatively heavy engines and look good with aradiator.> > Skip, an almost old fart(53) Corvair guy.> >> >>>> FindLaw - Free Case Law, Jobs, Library, Community> http://www.FindLaw.com> Get your FREE @JUSTICE.COM email!> http://mail.Justice.com>>________________________________________________________________________________
> > >Unfortunately, I do not know much about engines, outside of smallmarine> > >diesels.> >> > Ray,> > There are a couple groups doing research on diesel engines for aircraftuse.> > What can you tell us about small marine diesels:> > Weight?> > Power output?> > What RPM the power is made at?> >> > Pietenpols can use relatively heavy engines and look good with aradiator.> > Skip, an almost old fart(53) Corvair guy.> >> >>>> FindLaw - Free Case Law, Jobs, Library, Community> http://www.FindLaw.com> Get your FREE @JUSTICE.COM email!> http://mail.Justice.com>>________________________________________________________________________________