Original Posted By: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
I'm at the point now in the project where I need to build the center wingsection and bolt it up to my cabanes.I'm building the GN-1 variant which has a slightly different method ofattaching the wing than a Piet. It uses .065" 4130 steel plates that boltto both sides of the center section spar and also to the wing spar. Theplates stick out past the spars and have a hole in them where you slip abolt through to join the center section and wing plates.My problem is in cutting these plates. I do not have a slow speed metalband saw and I'm not sure even if I did I'd want to cut the 4130 myself. SoI drew up the plates in a CAD format and was going to have a laser cuttingshop cut them out for me.I just got the quote from a couple places today. Anywhere from $25 to $35 apiece. There are 16 pieces total. That's $400 to $560 for wing sparplates!!?*WAY too much if you ask me. So I got to thinking. What's the problem if Iuse .19" (3/16) 7075 T6 aluminum? I can use my carbide wood cuttingequipment to mill them out myself. I did a bit of research and found thatif I tripled the thickness, 7075 T6 aluminum would be equal to or stongerthan 4130 in tensile and shear strength.If I do it in aluminum I save myself about $350. I can sure use that extra$$ to get a carb (seehttp://www.aeroconversions.com/images/Aero_Carb_032701.jpg ) for my Corvair.I'll go 4130 steel, but I need a better(cheaper) solution to cutting them...otherwise it's 7075 T6.Gimme some feedback on this...DJ VeghN74DVimagedv.com/aircamperMesa, AZThis email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by HalfPrice Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more informationon an anti-virus email solution, visit .________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: substituting 7075 T6 aluminum for 4130 steel
Re: Pietenpol-List: substituting 7075 T6 aluminum for 4130 steel
Original Posted By: "DJ Vegh"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: substituting 7075 T6 aluminum for 4130 steelD J Sir, First, where did you get your 4130 plate? Check with them and see if they will cut your strips for you. I buy ALL my structual stuff from Wicks. I tell them how many 1 in pieces of 9 inches etc. and what thickness. They figured all my fitting steel and sizes, and CUT it to dimensions for a small shop fee. That's the route I would suggest. If the place you bought your steel will not serve you tell the net and we will put the big Pietenpol hiss on them. One Mayor Daley is enough, really tooooooo much.Corky in La where politics are NEVER discussedI chose Wicks because the saleslady was so much nicer than those California cats.________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: substituting 7075 T6 aluminum for 4130 steelD J Sir, First, where did you get your 4130 plate? Check with them and see if they will cut your strips for you. I buy ALL my structual stuff from Wicks. I tell them how many 1 in pieces of 9 inches etc. and what thickness. They figured all my fitting steel and sizes, and CUT it to dimensions for a small shop fee. That's the route I would suggest. If the place you bought your steel will not serve you tell the net and we will put the big Pietenpol hiss on them. One Mayor Daley is enough, really tooooooo much.Corky in La where politics are NEVER discussedI chose Wicks because the saleslady was so much nicer than those California cats.________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: substituting 7075 T6 aluminum for 4130 steel
Original Posted By:
Corky,if it were just cutting 4130 strips to size that would be no problem. Thething that makes it difficult is the parts I need cut are very specific inshape. see picture of a fitting here:www.imagedv.com/aircamper/center-wing-f ... gifcutting these from 4130 is a pain in the rear.DJ----- Original Message -----
Corky,if it were just cutting 4130 strips to size that would be no problem. Thething that makes it difficult is the parts I need cut are very specific inshape. see picture of a fitting here:www.imagedv.com/aircamper/center-wing-f ... gifcutting these from 4130 is a pain in the rear.DJ----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: substituting 7075 T6 aluminum for 4130 steel
Original Posted By: "DJ Vegh"
DJWith about 14 years in the aircraft structures, I think you will be morethan safe with the 7075 - T6 at 3/16. My piet will have all aluminum partswith comparative strengths and size. (I have a bunch of titanium bolts Iam going to use as well.)Just watch the ED and corner radius. and most important make sure you dosome VERY good Corrosion treating prevention.My piet model has covering on it. waiting for the wheels checkout my pageJohn----- Original Message -----
DJWith about 14 years in the aircraft structures, I think you will be morethan safe with the 7075 - T6 at 3/16. My piet will have all aluminum partswith comparative strengths and size. (I have a bunch of titanium bolts Iam going to use as well.)Just watch the ED and corner radius. and most important make sure you dosome VERY good Corrosion treating prevention.My piet model has covering on it. waiting for the wheels checkout my pageJohn----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: substituting 7075 T6 aluminum for 4130 steel
Original Posted By: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
That is half the fun. If you chuck a piece of hacksaw blade (ground toshape)in a jig saw, you would be surprised at how fast you can cutthem out. A little dressing with a file and you are done. Net costbasically zero if you use old hack saw blades 32 teeth per inch as theends hardly ever get damaged or dulled. Save the $350, as there areother areas where you will need it.-=Ian=-________________________________________________________________________________
That is half the fun. If you chuck a piece of hacksaw blade (ground toshape)in a jig saw, you would be surprised at how fast you can cutthem out. A little dressing with a file and you are done. Net costbasically zero if you use old hack saw blades 32 teeth per inch as theends hardly ever get damaged or dulled. Save the $350, as there areother areas where you will need it.-=Ian=-________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: substituting 7075 T6 aluminum for 4130 steel
Original Posted By: "DJ Vegh"
Bench vise and 24 tooth hacksaw blades work good. Extra benefits are muscletone and saved cash.DickG.----- Original Message -----
Bench vise and 24 tooth hacksaw blades work good. Extra benefits are muscletone and saved cash.DickG.----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: substituting 7075 T6 aluminum for 4130 steel
Original Posted By: "John Carmen"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: substituting 7075 T6 aluminum for 4130 steelD J Sir,Don't forget about a slow 20 per inch 1/4 in metal band saw blade.Corky________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: substituting 7075 T6 aluminum for 4130 steelD J Sir,Don't forget about a slow 20 per inch 1/4 in metal band saw blade.Corky________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: substituting 7075 T6 aluminum for 4130 steel
Original Posted By:
DJlooks like everyone wants you to use steel. I am still going to usealuminum.john----- Original Message -----
DJlooks like everyone wants you to use steel. I am still going to usealuminum.john----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: substituting 7075 T6 aluminum for 4130 steel
Original Posted By: clif
Re: Pietenpol-List: substituting 7075 T6 aluminum for 4130 steel
Original Posted By: clif
Pietenpol-List: Fwd: Propwash (Meigs Field)
Original Posted By: Michael D Cuy
Re: Pietenpol-List: substituting 7075 T6 aluminum for 4130 steel
Original Posted By: "DJ Vegh"
DJ,,, Sounds like you made up your mind on aluminum but I thought I'd throwmy 2 cents in here.If you have a air compressor, you can get a air cut off tool from HarborFreight or Home Depot forcheap ( around 30$) and a couple of packs of 3 inch cutoff disks. Aftercutting, you can use them toshape the metal too. The new disks cut the large pieces and the worn smallerdisks can be used toget in smaller areas. Also, you don't need to cut all the way thru,, scorethe metal down and bend themetal up and down and it will break easy. Using the cut off and benchgrinder ( right angle grinder is handytoo ) you can get any shape you want.Carl----- Original Message -----
DJ,,, Sounds like you made up your mind on aluminum but I thought I'd throwmy 2 cents in here.If you have a air compressor, you can get a air cut off tool from HarborFreight or Home Depot forcheap ( around 30$) and a couple of packs of 3 inch cutoff disks. Aftercutting, you can use them toshape the metal too. The new disks cut the large pieces and the worn smallerdisks can be used toget in smaller areas. Also, you don't need to cut all the way thru,, scorethe metal down and bend themetal up and down and it will break easy. Using the cut off and benchgrinder ( right angle grinder is handytoo ) you can get any shape you want.Carl----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: substituting 7075 T6 aluminum for 4130 steel
Original Posted By: "Carl Loar"
Carl,I like this idea..... I'll get one of those air cut off tools from HomeDepot and try it out. If I don't like it at least I'll have a cut off toolwhich is handy to have anyways.will report back with my progress after I get back from vacation onWednesday.DJ VeghN74DVwww.raptoronline.comMesa, AZ----- Original Message -----
Carl,I like this idea..... I'll get one of those air cut off tools from HomeDepot and try it out. If I don't like it at least I'll have a cut off toolwhich is handy to have anyways.will report back with my progress after I get back from vacation onWednesday.DJ VeghN74DVwww.raptoronline.comMesa, AZ----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: substituting 7075 T6 aluminum for 4130 steel
Original Posted By: Michael D Cuy
Re: Pietenpol-List: Kit planes or Scratch Built ?
Original Posted By: John_Duprey(at)vmed.org
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Kit planes or Scratch Built ?Mike,For comments like that, we'd say down south that that's right white of you.Corky, down south________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Kit planes or Scratch Built ?Mike,For comments like that, we'd say down south that that's right white of you.Corky, down south________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Kit planes or Scratch Built ?
Original Posted By: "Carl Loar"
04/04/2003 01:59:36 PMMichael D Cuy (at)matronics.com on 04/04/200312:35:52 PMPlease respond to pietenpol-list(at)matronics.comSent by: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.comcc:Subject: Pietenpol-List: Kit planes or Scratch Built ?Group-- It's raining here at lunchtime so I'm going to ramble some. Youguys out there building, like DJ asking about fabricating metal fittings,are really a unique group. You know how many tinker-toy kit planes youcould have chosen to build that would go together with your regular shoptools more quickly with minimal sweat ? Lots. Anybody choosing tobuild a plane like a Piet and GN-1 and seeing it thru to the finish to mecomes from a different breed--and I think a better breed. You guys deservelots of credit for MAKING your own fittings out of sheet, strip, or barstock. For learning how to weld, braze, cut, drill, countersink, edgeclean, etc. Making those 4130 fittings was really, really tough work butafter it's done you've learned so much more than the kit planebuilder. I'm guilty of buying stuff somebody else made---my fuel tank, myribs, and such, but the blood and guts we built, you built, and youlearned. I can now make up fixtures at work that previously we would havehad to farm out and wait weeks for. When the neighbor's lawnmower neededa bracket welded, I could fix it for them. You get so much more out ofscratch building I think. Sure, I'd love to slap $$$ down for a go-fastcomposite to compliment the low and slow Piet, but most of us don't havethat kind of money. I LOVE RV's like of planes, but how many rows ofthose at Oshkosh do you walk right by. BUT......come upon a Pietenpol ora Dormoy Bathtub, or a Pober Pixie, or Fly-Baby. People stop !! Theyknow there aren't rows of these on the flightline so it draws them. Gladto be in this group with you !Mike C.DITTO...John Duprey________________________________________________________________________________
04/04/2003 01:59:36 PMMichael D Cuy (at)matronics.com on 04/04/200312:35:52 PMPlease respond to pietenpol-list(at)matronics.comSent by: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.comcc:Subject: Pietenpol-List: Kit planes or Scratch Built ?Group-- It's raining here at lunchtime so I'm going to ramble some. Youguys out there building, like DJ asking about fabricating metal fittings,are really a unique group. You know how many tinker-toy kit planes youcould have chosen to build that would go together with your regular shoptools more quickly with minimal sweat ? Lots. Anybody choosing tobuild a plane like a Piet and GN-1 and seeing it thru to the finish to mecomes from a different breed--and I think a better breed. You guys deservelots of credit for MAKING your own fittings out of sheet, strip, or barstock. For learning how to weld, braze, cut, drill, countersink, edgeclean, etc. Making those 4130 fittings was really, really tough work butafter it's done you've learned so much more than the kit planebuilder. I'm guilty of buying stuff somebody else made---my fuel tank, myribs, and such, but the blood and guts we built, you built, and youlearned. I can now make up fixtures at work that previously we would havehad to farm out and wait weeks for. When the neighbor's lawnmower neededa bracket welded, I could fix it for them. You get so much more out ofscratch building I think. Sure, I'd love to slap $$$ down for a go-fastcomposite to compliment the low and slow Piet, but most of us don't havethat kind of money. I LOVE RV's like of planes, but how many rows ofthose at Oshkosh do you walk right by. BUT......come upon a Pietenpol ora Dormoy Bathtub, or a Pober Pixie, or Fly-Baby. People stop !! Theyknow there aren't rows of these on the flightline so it draws them. Gladto be in this group with you !Mike C.DITTO...John Duprey________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Kit planes or Scratch Built ?
Original Posted By: "Michael D Cuy"
Here here Mike,,, what a school this project puts us thru. I would have hada hard time buildinga decent dog house before the piet. And the metal work,,, if someone 10years ago that I would beable to weld a landing gear or motor mount for an aircraft, I would havethought they were nuts.Just think, we move wings and engines to obtain correct weight and balance.When you tell oldtimersthat ,they just scratch their heads. We were all lucky enough to have thisforum for help.Kit planes,,, we don't need no stinkin kits to build planes. We do it theold fashion way.Carl----- Original Message -----
Here here Mike,,, what a school this project puts us thru. I would have hada hard time buildinga decent dog house before the piet. And the metal work,,, if someone 10years ago that I would beable to weld a landing gear or motor mount for an aircraft, I would havethought they were nuts.Just think, we move wings and engines to obtain correct weight and balance.When you tell oldtimersthat ,they just scratch their heads. We were all lucky enough to have thisforum for help.Kit planes,,, we don't need no stinkin kits to build planes. We do it theold fashion way.Carl----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Kit planes or Scratch Built ?
Original Posted By: "Michael D Cuy"
----- Original Message -----
----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Kit planes or Scratch Built ?
Original Posted By: "Michael D Cuy"
Mike,The few sentences that you said summed it all up for me. one can see abeautiful metal or composite plane that someone put their heart and soul,and a lot of money into, And I won't swing wide to look at it, cause thoseplanes don't seem to have a soul. The Piets and others like you named seemto have a soul. Guess thats what it is, I don't know.walt I LOVE RV's like of planes, but how many rows of> those at Oshkosh do you walk right by. BUT......come upon a Pietenpol or> a Dormoy Bathtub, or a Pober Pixie, or Fly-Baby. People stop !! They> know there aren't rows of these on the flightline so it draws them. Glad> to be in this group with you !>> Mike C.----- Original Message -----
Mike,The few sentences that you said summed it all up for me. one can see abeautiful metal or composite plane that someone put their heart and soul,and a lot of money into, And I won't swing wide to look at it, cause thoseplanes don't seem to have a soul. The Piets and others like you named seemto have a soul. Guess thats what it is, I don't know.walt I LOVE RV's like of planes, but how many rows of> those at Oshkosh do you walk right by. BUT......come upon a Pietenpol or> a Dormoy Bathtub, or a Pober Pixie, or Fly-Baby. People stop !! They> know there aren't rows of these on the flightline so it draws them. Glad> to be in this group with you !>> Mike C.----- Original Message -----
RE: Pietenpol-List: plans
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Scott,Just don't buy the plans from Chad Wille. It is pretty tacky that he sellsthem.chris bobka-----Original Message-----
Scott,Just don't buy the plans from Chad Wille. It is pretty tacky that he sellsthem.chris bobka-----Original Message-----
Re: Pietenpol-List: substituting 7075 T6 aluminum for 4130 steel
Original Posted By: "D. Engelkenjohn"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: substituting 7075 T6 aluminum for 4130 steelHi DJ ..... After struggleing through my first fittings I startedcutting everything with a $10.00 10" carborundum metal cutting bladefrom Home Depot mounted in an old table saw. It cuts 4130 like butter,you just have to take it slow so you don't heat the pieces up too much (I'm not sure that really matters) If you're concerned you could alwaysnormallize the pieces afterwards. It dosen't hurt the table saw so I nowwouldn't be afraid to temporarily mount the blade in my good saw to makefittings. Just my two cents.Went to SNF yesterday and met Jack Phillips and Dick Navatril....Great guys and a great fly-in.....EdG.________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 13:51:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: substituting 7075 T6 aluminum for 4130 steelHi DJ ..... After struggleing through my first fittings I startedcutting everything with a $10.00 10" carborundum metal cutting bladefrom Home Depot mounted in an old table saw. It cuts 4130 like butter,you just have to take it slow so you don't heat the pieces up too much (I'm not sure that really matters) If you're concerned you could alwaysnormallize the pieces afterwards. It dosen't hurt the table saw so I nowwouldn't be afraid to temporarily mount the blade in my good saw to makefittings. Just my two cents.Went to SNF yesterday and met Jack Phillips and Dick Navatril....Great guys and a great fly-in.....EdG.________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 13:51:17 -0500
RE: Pietenpol-List: landing gear questions
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Dennis,Wood gear? Metal gear? Which gear are you using? Which fuselage plans didyou use? 1932, 1933, or the "60s one for the corvair?chris bobka-----Original Message-----
Dennis,Wood gear? Metal gear? Which gear are you using? Which fuselage plans didyou use? 1932, 1933, or the "60s one for the corvair?chris bobka-----Original Message-----
RE: Pietenpol-List: substituting 7075 T6 aluminum for 4130 steel
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
DJ,My two cents worth, rather than paying $400 for the fittings, invest $200 inone of those metal cutting bandsaws the Grizzly advertises in Sport Aviation(check out www.grizzly.com). That was one of the first tools I bought whenstarting on this project and it has been a real time saver. Between thatand a good 9" disc sander, you can cut, shape and dress just about all thesteel parts you will need to make. Since the bandsaw is really a pipecutting saw, it is excellent for cutting all your tubing as well.Again, just my two cents worth, but there are a lot of steel parts to makefor these planes.Jack -----Original Message-----
DJ,My two cents worth, rather than paying $400 for the fittings, invest $200 inone of those metal cutting bandsaws the Grizzly advertises in Sport Aviation(check out www.grizzly.com). That was one of the first tools I bought whenstarting on this project and it has been a real time saver. Between thatand a good 9" disc sander, you can cut, shape and dress just about all thesteel parts you will need to make. Since the bandsaw is really a pipecutting saw, it is excellent for cutting all your tubing as well.Again, just my two cents worth, but there are a lot of steel parts to makefor these planes.Jack -----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: substituting 7075 T6 aluminum for 4130 steel
Original Posted By: "D. Engelkenjohn"
Re: Pietenpol-List: substituting 7075 T6 aluminum for 4130 steel
Original Posted By: "DJ Vegh"
DJSorry to be so late in responding. I volunteered for the week at SnF. Justgot caught up in reading all the messages.I used a plain ole wood bandsaw, at regular speed, with a regular wood blade(3/8 or 1/2). It cuts 4130 like butter. Doesn't do good on curves though.But that is not a problem. Just rough cut it and then finish on a grindingwheel or sanding wheel. Really wasn't a problem and I got some pretty nicelooking metal fittings.Ted BrousseauNaples, FLJust getting back up to speed after missing 10 days.----- Original Message -----
DJSorry to be so late in responding. I volunteered for the week at SnF. Justgot caught up in reading all the messages.I used a plain ole wood bandsaw, at regular speed, with a regular wood blade(3/8 or 1/2). It cuts 4130 like butter. Doesn't do good on curves though.But that is not a problem. Just rough cut it and then finish on a grindingwheel or sanding wheel. Really wasn't a problem and I got some pretty nicelooking metal fittings.Ted BrousseauNaples, FLJust getting back up to speed after missing 10 days.----- Original Message -----