Original Posted By: Richard Schreiber
Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200
Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200
Original Posted By: "Craig Lawler"
The C-85 will use the same mount. One thing you can do is re-configure thetiming and flatten the prop pitch for more RPM. A-65 red-lines at 2300 for65HP while just running the engine faster at 2600 you get 75HP. The big endof the rods should be drilled for an oil squirt hole but most have beenalready for improved longevity. Since you are running experimental, one canbore the A-65 case for C series cylinders. Might want to use one of thelarger oil tanks. They all fit; even the 0-200. If you use the C-85, youcan effectively stroke the engine by using an O-200 crank. Talk to an oldtime mechanic and check out your options.Cy Galley - Bellanca Champion ClubNewsletter Editor & EAA TCwww.bellanca-championclub.comActively supporting Aeroncas every dayQuarterly newsletters on timeReasonable document reprints1-518-731-6800----- Original Message -----
The C-85 will use the same mount. One thing you can do is re-configure thetiming and flatten the prop pitch for more RPM. A-65 red-lines at 2300 for65HP while just running the engine faster at 2600 you get 75HP. The big endof the rods should be drilled for an oil squirt hole but most have beenalready for improved longevity. Since you are running experimental, one canbore the A-65 case for C series cylinders. Might want to use one of thelarger oil tanks. They all fit; even the 0-200. If you use the C-85, youcan effectively stroke the engine by using an O-200 crank. Talk to an oldtime mechanic and check out your options.Cy Galley - Bellanca Champion ClubNewsletter Editor & EAA TCwww.bellanca-championclub.comActively supporting Aeroncas every dayQuarterly newsletters on timeReasonable document reprints1-518-731-6800----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200
Original Posted By: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200Craig, What prop are you using? How fast are you reving the engine at takoff? You might be amazed how much it helps to have a "climb" prop (one with a flatter pitch) that allows the engine to rev up a little higher. The Sensenich websight (http://www.sensenichprop.com/sen_html/a ... ental.html) shows their model W72CK-40 is optimum for climb pn an A65 powered Pietenpol. This means the pitch is flattened out (40 degrees) to be optimum forthe 2350 max certified rpm of the A65. My prop is a 72CK-44 but I have not flown it yet on the Piet. I don't expect awesome climb performance. It is a "cruiseprop".If you want to bore the case for the larger bore cylinders/pistons, I can assist you with FAA field approval to maintain your engine as a "certified engine. Or you can Just DO IT without having the approval and the engine can beconsidered an experimental. I have the drawing, the 337, and can provide a DERapproval paperwork. Just about any small machine shop can do the machine work. It is a simple change and makes good sense, considering the cost for a rebuilt studded cylinder assembly for the O-200 is WAY less than for an A65. Iam planning to do this to my engine whenever it is time to overhaul. I helped a friend do this on his Luscombe. I estimate it will make 75 brake horsepower at 2350 rpm at sea level or >80 bhp at 2600 RPM. You might tweak 95 to 100 bhpout of it if you also change to the longer stroke crankshaft. These configurations are certifiable by similarity to other TCM configurations, verifiedthrough illustrated parts catalog verification. You wind up with a configurationthat is essentially the same as a C-85. Terry BowdenConsultant DER, Powerplant Installation and Enginesph (254) 715-4773fax (254) 853-3805________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200Craig, What prop are you using? How fast are you reving the engine at takoff? You might be amazed how much it helps to have a "climb" prop (one with a flatter pitch) that allows the engine to rev up a little higher. The Sensenich websight (http://www.sensenichprop.com/sen_html/a ... ental.html) shows their model W72CK-40 is optimum for climb pn an A65 powered Pietenpol. This means the pitch is flattened out (40 degrees) to be optimum forthe 2350 max certified rpm of the A65. My prop is a 72CK-44 but I have not flown it yet on the Piet. I don't expect awesome climb performance. It is a "cruiseprop".If you want to bore the case for the larger bore cylinders/pistons, I can assist you with FAA field approval to maintain your engine as a "certified engine. Or you can Just DO IT without having the approval and the engine can beconsidered an experimental. I have the drawing, the 337, and can provide a DERapproval paperwork. Just about any small machine shop can do the machine work. It is a simple change and makes good sense, considering the cost for a rebuilt studded cylinder assembly for the O-200 is WAY less than for an A65. Iam planning to do this to my engine whenever it is time to overhaul. I helped a friend do this on his Luscombe. I estimate it will make 75 brake horsepower at 2350 rpm at sea level or >80 bhp at 2600 RPM. You might tweak 95 to 100 bhpout of it if you also change to the longer stroke crankshaft. These configurations are certifiable by similarity to other TCM configurations, verifiedthrough illustrated parts catalog verification. You wind up with a configurationthat is essentially the same as a C-85. Terry BowdenConsultant DER, Powerplant Installation and Enginesph (254) 715-4773fax (254) 853-3805________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200
Original Posted By: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200Terry,I appreciated reading your e mail about converting from A 65. Here is my plight:I bought a A 65 locally from a friend, removed the cylinders, had an old time a/c engine rebuilder check them. He took them to bore out +15. After 4 months he had done nil, nothing. I decided to retrieve all my parts and start again elsewhere. Glen Ramsey, El Reno Avn suggested I send them to Sentry in Ft Worth which I did. After several weeks Sentry called saying the cyl had been boredout over +20 and they were rejects but could possibly be chromed so off to Tulsa they went. Next report was two could and two couldn't. Suggested they maybe silvered. So off to San Antonia for that process. Called after a couple of weeks and Sentry was unable to give me any report saying San Antonia was too busy to inform him.That's the way I'm sitting now. Not very comfortable as I know little or nothing about these processes. If the cyl are finally rejected could there be away to use some other cyl which may be more available less expensive than those65's. Sentry has made a point each time I talk with them that they have plentyof rebuilt 65 cyl at 550 each.Can you assit me in anyway?Corky in La________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:10:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200Terry,I appreciated reading your e mail about converting from A 65. Here is my plight:I bought a A 65 locally from a friend, removed the cylinders, had an old time a/c engine rebuilder check them. He took them to bore out +15. After 4 months he had done nil, nothing. I decided to retrieve all my parts and start again elsewhere. Glen Ramsey, El Reno Avn suggested I send them to Sentry in Ft Worth which I did. After several weeks Sentry called saying the cyl had been boredout over +20 and they were rejects but could possibly be chromed so off to Tulsa they went. Next report was two could and two couldn't. Suggested they maybe silvered. So off to San Antonia for that process. Called after a couple of weeks and Sentry was unable to give me any report saying San Antonia was too busy to inform him.That's the way I'm sitting now. Not very comfortable as I know little or nothing about these processes. If the cyl are finally rejected could there be away to use some other cyl which may be more available less expensive than those65's. Sentry has made a point each time I talk with them that they have plentyof rebuilt 65 cyl at 550 each.Can you assit me in anyway?Corky in La________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:10:05 -0400
Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200
Original Posted By:
Corky,You could try my old buddy Dick Lawson. 973-383-7821.Seems whenever I go there, I'm stepping over all types of cylinders.walt evansNX140DL----- Original Message -----
Corky,You could try my old buddy Dick Lawson. 973-383-7821.Seems whenever I go there, I'm stepping over all types of cylinders.walt evansNX140DL----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200
Original Posted By: ""
Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200
Original Posted By: "Craig Lawler"
We have an engine builder in our EAA Chapter. He can work wonders onexperimental engines, like flow-matching the heads, higher compressionpistons, hotter cam, etc. He does a lot of engines for the RV builders. Healso loves the 65,75,85 and O-200 engines. I have one of these engines withabout 300 hours on it now and it is still as smooth as it was new. I'm notadvertising for him, but he has some great ideas for engines, just don'tmention auto fuel. Don Swords email is donsdream1(at)aol.com He has a lot ofgood ideas and it doesn't cost anything to ask.Barry Davis----- Original Message -----
We have an engine builder in our EAA Chapter. He can work wonders onexperimental engines, like flow-matching the heads, higher compressionpistons, hotter cam, etc. He does a lot of engines for the RV builders. Healso loves the 65,75,85 and O-200 engines. I have one of these engines withabout 300 hours on it now and it is still as smooth as it was new. I'm notadvertising for him, but he has some great ideas for engines, just don'tmention auto fuel. Don Swords email is donsdream1(at)aol.com He has a lot ofgood ideas and it doesn't cost anything to ask.Barry Davis----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200
Original Posted By: "Craig Lawler"
We have an engine builder in our EAA Chapter. He can work wonders onexperimental engines, like flow-matching the heads, higher compressionpistons, hotter cam, etc. He does a lot of engines for the RV builders. Healso loves the 65,75,85 and O-200 engines. I have one of these engines withabout 300 hours on it now and it is still as smooth as it was new. I'm notadvertising for him, but he has some great ideas for engines, just don'tmention auto fuel. Don Swords email is donsdream1(at)aol.com He has a lot ofgood ideas and it doesn't cost anything to ask.Barry Davis----- Original Message -----
We have an engine builder in our EAA Chapter. He can work wonders onexperimental engines, like flow-matching the heads, higher compressionpistons, hotter cam, etc. He does a lot of engines for the RV builders. Healso loves the 65,75,85 and O-200 engines. I have one of these engines withabout 300 hours on it now and it is still as smooth as it was new. I'm notadvertising for him, but he has some great ideas for engines, just don'tmention auto fuel. Don Swords email is donsdream1(at)aol.com He has a lot ofgood ideas and it doesn't cost anything to ask.Barry Davis----- Original Message -----
Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200
Original Posted By: dpilot
Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200
Original Posted By: Craig Lawler
Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200
Original Posted By: "dpilot"
Jim, didn't mean to stir you up. You're preaching to the choir. I've usedautofuel in my 172 and 150 for about 10 years now with no problems. Its allI can get at the grass strip. We are building all six Piets to burn autoalso.I am very interested in the engine building info you have.Barry----- Original Message -----
Jim, didn't mean to stir you up. You're preaching to the choir. I've usedautofuel in my 172 and 150 for about 10 years now with no problems. Its allI can get at the grass strip. We are building all six Piets to burn autoalso.I am very interested in the engine building info you have.Barry----- Original Message -----
> Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200
Original Posted By: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200
Original Posted By: shad bell
Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Reunion this Weekend in Ohio
Original Posted By: Jeff Cours
Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Reunion this Weekend in Ohio
Original Posted By: "Dick and Marge Gillespie"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Reunion this Weekend in OhioHi Shad....about the Piet that's being covered......I'm covering mine now. The Stitts manual describes a method of covering a negative camber wing and I don't like it. They want you to riblace before tauting the fabric. That means before sealing. I plan to glue the fabric to the underside of the ribs when I first put the fabric on, then iron the fabric, then seal with Polybrush, then ribstich. The question is: Is the Stitts Polytack going to be strong enough tohold the fabric in place while it is being tauted. What do you think?________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Reunion this Weekend in OhioHi Shad....about the Piet that's being covered......I'm covering mine now. The Stitts manual describes a method of covering a negative camber wing and I don't like it. They want you to riblace before tauting the fabric. That means before sealing. I plan to glue the fabric to the underside of the ribs when I first put the fabric on, then iron the fabric, then seal with Polybrush, then ribstich. The question is: Is the Stitts Polytack going to be strong enough tohold the fabric in place while it is being tauted. What do you think?________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Reunion this Weekend in Ohio
Original Posted By:
I used the Poly-Fiber process exactly as directed and it worked great.DickG.----- Original Message -----
I used the Poly-Fiber process exactly as directed and it worked great.DickG.----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Reunion this Weekend in Ohio
Original Posted By: Richard Schreiber
Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200
Original Posted By:
Corky,About your cylinders, the ECI prices on the website are not the pricesactually paid. Be patient. Let the pros work..chris----- Original Message -----
Corky,About your cylinders, the ECI prices on the website are not the pricesactually paid. Be patient. Let the pros work..chris----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200
Original Posted By: "Christian Bobka"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200Chris,Thanks for your interest. I am being patient. I have no earthly idea what's going on. In Fort Worth he said the 4 cyls were rejects. He says Tulsa says only two can be chromed. I have no idea what San Antonio is supposed to be doingwith them. Just a little bit of info sure would help. How patient can a guy get?Corky________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200Chris,Thanks for your interest. I am being patient. I have no earthly idea what's going on. In Fort Worth he said the 4 cyls were rejects. He says Tulsa says only two can be chromed. I have no idea what San Antonio is supposed to be doingwith them. Just a little bit of info sure would help. How patient can a guy get?Corky________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200
Original Posted By:
Corky,First they try to see if a honing will do the trick to keep the cylinderstandard size bore. If that is no good then they try to take the cylindersover by .015". Sometimes the cylinder will wear funny so that even aftergoing the .015, there is still an OOR (out of round) condition so this isstill no good. Other times, there is rust. A corrision cell in steel isnarrow and deep unlike aluminum witch is usually wide and shallow. Thisdepth of the corrosion cell in the steel might mean that even with a .015grind, they still can't get to the bottom of the cell and clean metal. Forplating the metal must be perfect. If there is one point that the chromecan't stick to, then it is no dice. I saw at sentry an example of whathappens when you try to plate over this "dead" metal. It doesn't work.The FAA approved plating procedure at some shops allows an overgrind to.020", then plating back to standard bore. the chrome procedure is greatbecause you will most likely never have bad bores again as it is so hard andwon't normally corrode. I have had cylinders brought back from the dead bysaying that they were for an Airboat (lots in LA and close cousin to theexperimetnal airplane). With your experimental (or even under the porposedSport Pilot), certified work is not necessary so why go for the yeallow tag?Tell em it is for an airboat and bring it back from the dead if it is close.Remember that these cylinders, yellow tagged, have to take the strain of anA-80 at higher compression because the FAA can't predict the engine theywill ulitmately be used on, so the certified cylinders are over built forthe 65 hp of the A-65.The reference to silver plating is new to new to me but maybe they meant, assomeone suggested, they were to cerminil the bore. Either way, go with thetechnology.On ebay, I have purchased c-85 up to O-200 cylinders (same cylinder pn forall). One is cerminil, one is cermichrome, one is channel chrome, andanother is steel. I hope to run all four types on the same engine and seehow they fare in comparative use.Final caution. It is imperitive that you use the piston rings that comefrom ECI. Different cylinder surfaces require different ring material andif you use the wrong rings, your cylinders will last 100 hours andeverything in the engine will be toast. I can't stress this enough. Oldpiston ring PNs and the ones in the continental parts books refer to steelbores so you most likely will have to use aftermarket vendors for ringscompatible with chrome, cerminil, etc.I have found that with ECI, it is worth calling them to get the scoop.Hell, don't be patient.I have also found with my Cessna 140 cylinders that were sent to them fouryears ago that they inspected and found cracks (that I could see too) in twoof the cylinders and then proceeded to just red taged the other two ascracked beyond repair without even evidently inspecting them. They wantedto sell more new cylinder assemblies. I ended up with a set of new superiorairparts millenium cylinders so they shot themselves in the foot.Being the cheapass airline pilot I am, I took the other two uninspectedcylinders to the local cylinder shop. No cracks found and they just need ahone job to be back in service with a standard bore so I have them on theshelf for a future project. Go figure. It obviously pays to get manyopinions and bead blast off the red dye penetrant and have someone elserender a second or third opinion.chris bobka(in minneapolis - not sacramento)----- Original Message -----
Corky,First they try to see if a honing will do the trick to keep the cylinderstandard size bore. If that is no good then they try to take the cylindersover by .015". Sometimes the cylinder will wear funny so that even aftergoing the .015, there is still an OOR (out of round) condition so this isstill no good. Other times, there is rust. A corrision cell in steel isnarrow and deep unlike aluminum witch is usually wide and shallow. Thisdepth of the corrosion cell in the steel might mean that even with a .015grind, they still can't get to the bottom of the cell and clean metal. Forplating the metal must be perfect. If there is one point that the chromecan't stick to, then it is no dice. I saw at sentry an example of whathappens when you try to plate over this "dead" metal. It doesn't work.The FAA approved plating procedure at some shops allows an overgrind to.020", then plating back to standard bore. the chrome procedure is greatbecause you will most likely never have bad bores again as it is so hard andwon't normally corrode. I have had cylinders brought back from the dead bysaying that they were for an Airboat (lots in LA and close cousin to theexperimetnal airplane). With your experimental (or even under the porposedSport Pilot), certified work is not necessary so why go for the yeallow tag?Tell em it is for an airboat and bring it back from the dead if it is close.Remember that these cylinders, yellow tagged, have to take the strain of anA-80 at higher compression because the FAA can't predict the engine theywill ulitmately be used on, so the certified cylinders are over built forthe 65 hp of the A-65.The reference to silver plating is new to new to me but maybe they meant, assomeone suggested, they were to cerminil the bore. Either way, go with thetechnology.On ebay, I have purchased c-85 up to O-200 cylinders (same cylinder pn forall). One is cerminil, one is cermichrome, one is channel chrome, andanother is steel. I hope to run all four types on the same engine and seehow they fare in comparative use.Final caution. It is imperitive that you use the piston rings that comefrom ECI. Different cylinder surfaces require different ring material andif you use the wrong rings, your cylinders will last 100 hours andeverything in the engine will be toast. I can't stress this enough. Oldpiston ring PNs and the ones in the continental parts books refer to steelbores so you most likely will have to use aftermarket vendors for ringscompatible with chrome, cerminil, etc.I have found that with ECI, it is worth calling them to get the scoop.Hell, don't be patient.I have also found with my Cessna 140 cylinders that were sent to them fouryears ago that they inspected and found cracks (that I could see too) in twoof the cylinders and then proceeded to just red taged the other two ascracked beyond repair without even evidently inspecting them. They wantedto sell more new cylinder assemblies. I ended up with a set of new superiorairparts millenium cylinders so they shot themselves in the foot.Being the cheapass airline pilot I am, I took the other two uninspectedcylinders to the local cylinder shop. No cracks found and they just need ahone job to be back in service with a standard bore so I have them on theshelf for a future project. Go figure. It obviously pays to get manyopinions and bead blast off the red dye penetrant and have someone elserender a second or third opinion.chris bobka(in minneapolis - not sacramento)----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200
Original Posted By: "Christian Bobka"
Corky,Just a strange note to throw in. We use chrome plating in our line of workand if you haven't run into it, You'll expect to see shiney chrome like onyou're old '56 buick bumper. Chrome itself is clear, and it doesn't looklike much if you have it done. I understand there are they're own set ofproblems getting the rings to seal properly to the super hard chrome. Socheck with the pros.walt evansNX140DL----- Original Message -----
Corky,Just a strange note to throw in. We use chrome plating in our line of workand if you haven't run into it, You'll expect to see shiney chrome like onyou're old '56 buick bumper. Chrome itself is clear, and it doesn't looklike much if you have it done. I understand there are they're own set ofproblems getting the rings to seal properly to the super hard chrome. Socheck with the pros.walt evansNX140DL----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200
Original Posted By: "w b evans"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200Chris,Thanks for the explanations, I wish I knew enough about it to fully understand. Each to his own speciality. I don't think I told Sentry specificallythat these were to be for an experimental. I'll call them again Tuesday.In the meantime, I have 1200 in this engine to begin with, another 400+ in the everhauled mags. Now I'm bidding on an A-65 on Ebay and a 0-145 Lyc on Ebay.Wish I could cancel the Lyc bid but can't. Thought that by getting another 65 I might be able to get one good one from the two. Also could get another dud. Frankly I think maybe I'll just let this engine sit until I hear from Sentry.Thanks again for you comments and expertise.Is there anything to the subject recently on this net about boring a 65 case to use other cyls ?. I could get some 0-200 cyl from Mr Harvey.Corky________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200Chris,Thanks for the explanations, I wish I knew enough about it to fully understand. Each to his own speciality. I don't think I told Sentry specificallythat these were to be for an experimental. I'll call them again Tuesday.In the meantime, I have 1200 in this engine to begin with, another 400+ in the everhauled mags. Now I'm bidding on an A-65 on Ebay and a 0-145 Lyc on Ebay.Wish I could cancel the Lyc bid but can't. Thought that by getting another 65 I might be able to get one good one from the two. Also could get another dud. Frankly I think maybe I'll just let this engine sit until I hear from Sentry.Thanks again for you comments and expertise.Is there anything to the subject recently on this net about boring a 65 case to use other cyls ?. I could get some 0-200 cyl from Mr Harvey.Corky________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200
Original Posted By: "Christian Bobka"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200Call ECI and ask for Jimmy Tubbs. He's then head of engineering and a good friend of mine. He is sometimes hard to get hold of, but a good guy that willtry to help. If nothing else, he'll put you in contact with the right person in their shop. Terry Bowdenph (254) 715-4773fax (254) 853-3805________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200Call ECI and ask for Jimmy Tubbs. He's then head of engineering and a good friend of mine. He is sometimes hard to get hold of, but a good guy that willtry to help. If nothing else, he'll put you in contact with the right person in their shop. Terry Bowdenph (254) 715-4773fax (254) 853-3805________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200
Original Posted By: "dpilot"
Good point. Part of the cylinder inspection should include a pressure testof the cylinder to ensure that the threads are not leaking and they areholding properly. Of course, this pales in comparison to the punishmentwhen in service...chris----- Original Message -----
Good point. Part of the cylinder inspection should include a pressure testof the cylinder to ensure that the threads are not leaking and they areholding properly. Of course, this pales in comparison to the punishmentwhen in service...chris----- Original Message -----
> Re: Pietenpol-List: C-90 or O-200
Original Posted By: chris gomez