Original Posted By: "John Ford"
With all this talk of airfoils, and of all the stuff I thought I knew, now I seeall the stuff I don't know. I thought if I could fly/land a Cub, I could landa Piet. But some of the landings in the Piet are weird, and some are "whew".Up till now I've become most comfortable with the wheel landings.Now is the time where I'm not ashamed to ask for any and all input. Maybe I'mdoing something basically wrong.I Pull the power to 1500 rpm (A65) and set the glide for 70 mph all the way downto a wheel landing. Is that too fast? Any slower and I PoGo down the runway.Three point are my weakest, someone give me approach speeds and tips on them.Guess I'm doing the whole thing too fast, but I don't know.Can anyone who wants to, post a normal wheel and three point landing procedureas it goes thru there mind on final?Now that I can't fly,,,I can learn.thankswalt evansNX140DLPS 6 below in the am________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 21:40:19 -0500
Pietenpol-List: with all this talk of airfoils,,,I need input
Re: Pietenpol-List: with all this talk of airfoils,,,I need input
Original Posted By: w b evans
Walt,To do a perfect three pointer, you MUST touch down at minimum speed. This meansthe stick MUST be at the aft stop as you hit the ground or slightly before youhit the ground. And then the stick STAYS there until you are stopped. Youmay move it left or right for crosswinds but the stick MUST stay back all theway. That is why the pogo.If you land tailwheel first, which is ok, it will force a nose down rotation withthe tailwheel being the pivot point. As the nose abruptly drops as the tailwheelhits, it will instantly change the angle of attack of the wing, increasingit, and forcing a more complete stall. Then your mains will hit and a tonof energy will be stored by the tires and shock cords. If you have the splitaxle gear, the gear will splay out and this action will dissipate or absorb alot of energy. If you have the straight axle gear, then there is no splayingout of the wheels, so all the energy will be stored by the shock cord, and thenreleased by the shock cord, which can actually launch your mains back intothe air. But if you hold the stick back, she's not gonna fly.I hope this helps.Chris BobkaCFI ----- Original Message -----
Walt,To do a perfect three pointer, you MUST touch down at minimum speed. This meansthe stick MUST be at the aft stop as you hit the ground or slightly before youhit the ground. And then the stick STAYS there until you are stopped. Youmay move it left or right for crosswinds but the stick MUST stay back all theway. That is why the pogo.If you land tailwheel first, which is ok, it will force a nose down rotation withthe tailwheel being the pivot point. As the nose abruptly drops as the tailwheelhits, it will instantly change the angle of attack of the wing, increasingit, and forcing a more complete stall. Then your mains will hit and a tonof energy will be stored by the tires and shock cords. If you have the splitaxle gear, the gear will splay out and this action will dissipate or absorb alot of energy. If you have the straight axle gear, then there is no splayingout of the wheels, so all the energy will be stored by the shock cord, and thenreleased by the shock cord, which can actually launch your mains back intothe air. But if you hold the stick back, she's not gonna fly.I hope this helps.Chris BobkaCFI ----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: with all this talk of airfoils,,,I need input
Original Posted By: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: with all this talk of airfoils,,,I need inputIn a message dated 1/10/04 5:54:45 PM Central Standard Time, wbeevans(at)verizon.net writes:>Walt,For me, landings are always the most challenging part of the flight. I much prefer landing on grass than hard surface...it's much more forgiving. When Ifirst started flying the Piet, I would drag it in with power on final (maybe I just didn't trust that ol' Model A engine - it quit 2 times on short final),and wheel landings were the way I usually did one. I didn't want to do an approach stall, so I kept the approach speed too high, and did quite a few bouncy PoGo landings, till I learned to stab the stick forward at the split secondthe mains touched. I now do full stall landings most of the time. I usuallykeep my downwind in pretty close, in case I loose the engine I'll still make the field, which makes turns to base and final pretty steep. On downwind, whenabeam the landing spot, I pull power on the Cont. A65 engine to 1500 rpm, and the nose drops, and I keep the speed from 70 to 60 indicated, turn base keeping the ball in the middle, level the wing very briefly for a last check forrunway condition, 30 or more bank to final (which blocks out the view of the runway), and on final I like to be pretty high, so I pull power to just above the idle stop, and put 'er in a slip down to maybe 50 to 80 feet agl, straightenout and maintain a minimum of 50 mph indicated till I make the numbers. Pull power off to the stop which quickly dissipates the speed, because I'm pulling the nose up now for the roundout. 50 to 55 mph on short final seems to maintain enough energy for the roundout and flair. The ground is really closenow, maybe a couple of feet. That's the hardest part - keeping the ground about 6 to 8 inches below the tires. Nose is coming up, and forward view is blocked. Perifial vision out the left side shows how far away it is. Speed is rapidly dissipating. Quick glance at the ASI - about 40 mph indicated now. Groundeffect is kicking in...Hold it off...ease the stick back, keep the nose straight with the rudder in the direction of flight...hold it off...nose comingup and causing a lot of induced drag...hold it off...controls are very mushy now,but the ailerons are still very effective...hold it off...gentle ground rumble, and short roll out !! YEEE HAAAAWWW !!! Boy that feels good !! Tryas I may, my landings are always different. From round out to touchdown is a matter of maybe 5 or 6 seconds. Quite often my tail touches first, but just asplit second before the mains. I think sometimes I actually touch down at lessthan 30 mph, although I've never looked at the ASI to verify it. I think my ASI actually reads a little low anyway.Chuck GantzerNX770CG________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: with all this talk of airfoils,,,I need inputIn a message dated 1/10/04 5:54:45 PM Central Standard Time, wbeevans(at)verizon.net writes:>Walt,For me, landings are always the most challenging part of the flight. I much prefer landing on grass than hard surface...it's much more forgiving. When Ifirst started flying the Piet, I would drag it in with power on final (maybe I just didn't trust that ol' Model A engine - it quit 2 times on short final),and wheel landings were the way I usually did one. I didn't want to do an approach stall, so I kept the approach speed too high, and did quite a few bouncy PoGo landings, till I learned to stab the stick forward at the split secondthe mains touched. I now do full stall landings most of the time. I usuallykeep my downwind in pretty close, in case I loose the engine I'll still make the field, which makes turns to base and final pretty steep. On downwind, whenabeam the landing spot, I pull power on the Cont. A65 engine to 1500 rpm, and the nose drops, and I keep the speed from 70 to 60 indicated, turn base keeping the ball in the middle, level the wing very briefly for a last check forrunway condition, 30 or more bank to final (which blocks out the view of the runway), and on final I like to be pretty high, so I pull power to just above the idle stop, and put 'er in a slip down to maybe 50 to 80 feet agl, straightenout and maintain a minimum of 50 mph indicated till I make the numbers. Pull power off to the stop which quickly dissipates the speed, because I'm pulling the nose up now for the roundout. 50 to 55 mph on short final seems to maintain enough energy for the roundout and flair. The ground is really closenow, maybe a couple of feet. That's the hardest part - keeping the ground about 6 to 8 inches below the tires. Nose is coming up, and forward view is blocked. Perifial vision out the left side shows how far away it is. Speed is rapidly dissipating. Quick glance at the ASI - about 40 mph indicated now. Groundeffect is kicking in...Hold it off...ease the stick back, keep the nose straight with the rudder in the direction of flight...hold it off...nose comingup and causing a lot of induced drag...hold it off...controls are very mushy now,but the ailerons are still very effective...hold it off...gentle ground rumble, and short roll out !! YEEE HAAAAWWW !!! Boy that feels good !! Tryas I may, my landings are always different. From round out to touchdown is a matter of maybe 5 or 6 seconds. Quite often my tail touches first, but just asplit second before the mains. I think sometimes I actually touch down at lessthan 30 mph, although I've never looked at the ASI to verify it. I think my ASI actually reads a little low anyway.Chuck GantzerNX770CG________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: with all this talk of airfoils,,,I need input
Original Posted By:
Exellent, Chuck. I am always yelling at the students to "Keep it flying!Don't let it touch! Don't let it touch! Ah, you let it touch...Okay, let'sdo another..."By the way, chuck's method works for nosewheel airplanes too. I buy lunchif the student drags the tiedown at the tail. Makes for nice landings andyou will never bounce and you will never wheelbarrel and break off the nosegear. Ever fly a Cherokee Six?Chris Bobka----- Original Message -----
Exellent, Chuck. I am always yelling at the students to "Keep it flying!Don't let it touch! Don't let it touch! Ah, you let it touch...Okay, let'sdo another..."By the way, chuck's method works for nosewheel airplanes too. I buy lunchif the student drags the tiedown at the tail. Makes for nice landings andyou will never bounce and you will never wheelbarrel and break off the nosegear. Ever fly a Cherokee Six?Chris Bobka----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: with all this talk of airfoils,,,I need input
Original Posted By: "John Dilatush"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: with all this talk of airfoils,,,I need inputOn this discusion on landing I wonder how going from 6:00 6 wheels to 18 inch motorcycle wheels will affect the land problems? It raises the axels about three inches I think. Ken Conrad in cool Iowa________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: with all this talk of airfoils,,,I need inputOn this discusion on landing I wonder how going from 6:00 6 wheels to 18 inch motorcycle wheels will affect the land problems? It raises the axels about three inches I think. Ken Conrad in cool Iowa________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: with all this talk of airfoils,,,I need input
Original Posted By: "Christian Bobka"
----- Original Message -----
----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: with all this talk of airfoils,,,I need input
Original Posted By: Wizzard187(at)aol.com
Having larger wheels will increase the angle of attack in the three point. Thismeans you are at a slightly higher lift and lower speed. How much depends onhow much the angle is increased. If the large wheels put the wing right atstall in three point the smaller wheels would cause you to land tail first orroll out at a higher speed with the wing still lifting. You "could" balloon backinto the air, especially if the wheels have more bounce than the big wheels.I got to look at the drawing of the wing structure and one view of the ribs worriedme a little. There is a diagonal from the bottom of the front spar to thetop leading edge about half way between the very leading edge and the spar.That diagonal would support the leading edge top contour. On the bottom therib drawing doesn't show anything to support the bottom stick to maintain thelower curve between the bottom of the front spar and the leading edge. Thereis a curve shown on the drawing but it would be very easy for that stick to gostraight (and in fact the cut away SHOWS it straight). Taking away the lowercurve would push the leading edge up and decrease the leading edge radius. Neitherof these things is good for landing performance or handling. Sharp leadingedges (in general) have poor stall characteristics and while raising theleading edge may help raise cruise speed (something the Piet design doesn't listas a real priority) it can really HURT landing performance. Are you guys flyingwith the lower front part of the airfoil straight or curved? Variance inthat part of the leading edge could explain a lot of the different landing handlingreports I have been seeing. The airfoil for the Piet doesn't have muchgood data so I am addressing things pretty much in general here. I have a sneakingfeeling that not all Piets have the same airfoil even when built fromthe same plans.Hank (stirring the waters) J ----- Original Message -----
Having larger wheels will increase the angle of attack in the three point. Thismeans you are at a slightly higher lift and lower speed. How much depends onhow much the angle is increased. If the large wheels put the wing right atstall in three point the smaller wheels would cause you to land tail first orroll out at a higher speed with the wing still lifting. You "could" balloon backinto the air, especially if the wheels have more bounce than the big wheels.I got to look at the drawing of the wing structure and one view of the ribs worriedme a little. There is a diagonal from the bottom of the front spar to thetop leading edge about half way between the very leading edge and the spar.That diagonal would support the leading edge top contour. On the bottom therib drawing doesn't show anything to support the bottom stick to maintain thelower curve between the bottom of the front spar and the leading edge. Thereis a curve shown on the drawing but it would be very easy for that stick to gostraight (and in fact the cut away SHOWS it straight). Taking away the lowercurve would push the leading edge up and decrease the leading edge radius. Neitherof these things is good for landing performance or handling. Sharp leadingedges (in general) have poor stall characteristics and while raising theleading edge may help raise cruise speed (something the Piet design doesn't listas a real priority) it can really HURT landing performance. Are you guys flyingwith the lower front part of the airfoil straight or curved? Variance inthat part of the leading edge could explain a lot of the different landing handlingreports I have been seeing. The airfoil for the Piet doesn't have muchgood data so I am addressing things pretty much in general here. I have a sneakingfeeling that not all Piets have the same airfoil even when built fromthe same plans.Hank (stirring the waters) J ----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: with all this talk of airfoils,,,I need input
Original Posted By: "w b evans"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: with all this talk of airfoils,,,I need inputTalk about noseheavy, how about one of those 8 cylinder Cherokees?By the way, chuck's method works for nosewheel airplanes too. I buy lunchif the student drags the tiedown at the tail. Makes for nice landings andyou will never bounce and you will never wheelbarrel and break off the nosegear. Ever fly a Cherokee Six?________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: with all this talk of airfoils,,,I need inputTalk about noseheavy, how about one of those 8 cylinder Cherokees?By the way, chuck's method works for nosewheel airplanes too. I buy lunchif the student drags the tiedown at the tail. Makes for nice landings andyou will never bounce and you will never wheelbarrel and break off the nosegear. Ever fly a Cherokee Six?________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: with all this talk of airfoils,,,I need input
Original Posted By: "John Dilatush"
Thanks to all who responded. Lots of good input from guys with lots ofhours/experience.Kind of got a handle on how I'll change my ways. The wheel landings areeasier for me, where I can see everything going on, and this is withapproach speeds of 65/70.got to slow things down for the 3 point. My Piet stalls @ 37 IAS so it'spretty sure bet I'm comming over the numbers way too fast.walt evansNX140DL----- Original Message -----
Thanks to all who responded. Lots of good input from guys with lots ofhours/experience.Kind of got a handle on how I'll change my ways. The wheel landings areeasier for me, where I can see everything going on, and this is withapproach speeds of 65/70.got to slow things down for the 3 point. My Piet stalls @ 37 IAS so it'spretty sure bet I'm comming over the numbers way too fast.walt evansNX140DL----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: with all this talk of airfoils,,,I need input
Original Posted By: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Walt,As Larry Williams said in his post, read STICK AND RUDDER byWolfgang Langewiesche, ISBN: 07-036240-8, about the art of flying.First published in 1944, it remains the best analysis of what ishappening when you fly an airplane: old or new, big or small.I first read it back in 1951 when I got my Private Pilot License, andI am convinced that it has kept me out of a lot of trouble. Over theyears I have periodically re-read parts of it and continue to marvelat the author's insight.Cheers,Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN)________________________________________________________________________________
Walt,As Larry Williams said in his post, read STICK AND RUDDER byWolfgang Langewiesche, ISBN: 07-036240-8, about the art of flying.First published in 1944, it remains the best analysis of what ishappening when you fly an airplane: old or new, big or small.I first read it back in 1951 when I got my Private Pilot License, andI am convinced that it has kept me out of a lot of trouble. Over theyears I have periodically re-read parts of it and continue to marvelat the author's insight.Cheers,Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN)________________________________________________________________________________