Original Posted By: jkahn(at)picasso.dehavilland.ca (John Kahn)
A friend (non-networked) would like to hear about the different wayspeople have installed drag/anti-drag wires in the wings. The threemethods we've talked about have been cables, hard-wire and threadedsolid rod.Anyone have particular success or horror stories or maybe yet anothermethod?TIABill Sayre________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: drag wires
Pietenpol-List: Re: drag wires
Original Posted By: "Sayre, William G"
My Starduster Too plans (a big biplane; not building it though) show a set of struts made from 4130 tube to form a drag-anti-drag truss. Possibly heavierthan wires.John Kahn ________________________________________________________________________________
My Starduster Too plans (a big biplane; not building it though) show a set of struts made from 4130 tube to form a drag-anti-drag truss. Possibly heavierthan wires.John Kahn ________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: RE: drag wires
Original Posted By:>
Could those be compression struts instead of drag/anti-drag???Bill> ----------
Could those be compression struts instead of drag/anti-drag???Bill> ----------
Pietenpol-List: RE: drag wires
Original Posted By: Ken Beanlands
The wing has three compression struts with tube diagonals in between to form a truss. Being a biplane wing it is fairly short. I'd have to dredge outthe plans to give you more details...John________________________________________________________________________________
The wing has three compression struts with tube diagonals in between to form a truss. Being a biplane wing it is fairly short. I'd have to dredge outthe plans to give you more details...John________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: drag wires
Original Posted By: Gary Gower
I've had pretty good success using 1/8" multi-strand cable nicopressed on to a turnbuckle on one end and a shackle on the other. The cable and the "bolt-style" nicopress tool are cheap and the turnbuckles and shackles came out to be less that the threaded rod ends suggested in the Christavia MK1 plans. Besides, you'll end up having to buy a die for both left and right hand threads. Very expensive!The Christavia MKIV has a fuel tank in each wing root. To eliminate the need to cross the drad/anti-drag wires inside the tank (very difficult to do) they use a single 4130 tube in the first bay.KenOn Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Sayre, William G wrote:> A friend (non-networked) would like to hear about the different ways> people have installed drag/anti-drag wires in the wings. The three> methods we've talked about have been cables, hard-wire and threaded> solid rod.> > Anyone have particular success or horror stories or maybe yet another> method?> > TIA> > Bill Sayre> > ________________________________________________________________________________
I've had pretty good success using 1/8" multi-strand cable nicopressed on to a turnbuckle on one end and a shackle on the other. The cable and the "bolt-style" nicopress tool are cheap and the turnbuckles and shackles came out to be less that the threaded rod ends suggested in the Christavia MK1 plans. Besides, you'll end up having to buy a die for both left and right hand threads. Very expensive!The Christavia MKIV has a fuel tank in each wing root. To eliminate the need to cross the drad/anti-drag wires inside the tank (very difficult to do) they use a single 4130 tube in the first bay.KenOn Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Sayre, William G wrote:> A friend (non-networked) would like to hear about the different ways> people have installed drag/anti-drag wires in the wings. The three> methods we've talked about have been cables, hard-wire and threaded> solid rod.> > Anyone have particular success or horror stories or maybe yet another> method?> > TIA> > Bill Sayre> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: drag wires
Original Posted By: Randy Stockberger
Hard wire with roll threaded ends would be the best. Cables tend tostretch and threaded rod will be heavier for the same strength. (You haveto use the root diameter not the outside diameter) If the threads are cuton the rod you will have stress concentrations.Sayre, William G wrote:> A friend (non-networked) would like to hear about the different ways> people have installed drag/anti-drag wires in the wings. The three> methods we've talked about have been cables, hard-wire and threaded> solid rod.>> Anyone have particular success or horror stories or maybe yet another> method?>> TIA>> Bill Sayre--David B.Schober, CPEInstructor, Aviation MaintenanceFairmont State CollegeNational Aerospace Education CenterRt. 3 Box 13Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503(304) 842-8300________________________________________________________________________________
Hard wire with roll threaded ends would be the best. Cables tend tostretch and threaded rod will be heavier for the same strength. (You haveto use the root diameter not the outside diameter) If the threads are cuton the rod you will have stress concentrations.Sayre, William G wrote:> A friend (non-networked) would like to hear about the different ways> people have installed drag/anti-drag wires in the wings. The three> methods we've talked about have been cables, hard-wire and threaded> solid rod.>> Anyone have particular success or horror stories or maybe yet another> method?>> TIA>> Bill Sayre--David B.Schober, CPEInstructor, Aviation MaintenanceFairmont State CollegeNational Aerospace Education CenterRt. 3 Box 13Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503(304) 842-8300________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: drag wires
Original Posted By: "Greg Cardinal"
Re: Pietenpol-List: drag wires
Original Posted By: nle97(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: drag wires
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: drag wires
Re: Pietenpol-List: drag wires
Original Posted By: Christian Bobka
Re: Pietenpol-List: drag wires
Original Posted By: Jack Phillips
Pietenpol-List: drag wires
Original Posted By: "DJ Vegh"
For the drag and anti-drag wires, are most guys using 1/8th, 1 x 19 stainless steel cable?Jeff in windy Texas getting ready to take the 1926 Disappearing Propellor Boat to the boat showin Hot Springs, AR next weekend. I don't think there will be any piets on floats there.http://moneycentral.msn.com/tax/home.as ... __________
For the drag and anti-drag wires, are most guys using 1/8th, 1 x 19 stainless steel cable?Jeff in windy Texas getting ready to take the 1926 Disappearing Propellor Boat to the boat showin Hot Springs, AR next weekend. I don't think there will be any piets on floats there.http://moneycentral.msn.com/tax/home.as ... __________
RE: Pietenpol-List: drag wires
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Hi Jeff,That's what I used.Jack PhillipsSpraying silver now that the weather in Raleigh has gotten warm enough -----Original Message-----
Hi Jeff,That's what I used.Jack PhillipsSpraying silver now that the weather in Raleigh has gotten warm enough -----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: drag wires
Original Posted By: "john s"
How many builders have used3/32" cable instead of 1/8" for the wing drag wires? It would save a lot of weightand the rating of 3/32 is 920 lbs breaking strength (for stainless). Isn'tthis more than adequate?On another topic, why does there seem to be only one company thatmakes cable shackles? ACSS has had them on back order for a year with noend in sight. The only way I can see to get around this is to use swaged forkedcableends and use a clevis pin for attachment to the metal wing tab.Jeff in TX Find the music you love on MSN Music. Start downloading now! ________________________________________________________________________________
How many builders have used3/32" cable instead of 1/8" for the wing drag wires? It would save a lot of weightand the rating of 3/32 is 920 lbs breaking strength (for stainless). Isn'tthis more than adequate?On another topic, why does there seem to be only one company thatmakes cable shackles? ACSS has had them on back order for a year with noend in sight. The only way I can see to get around this is to use swaged forkedcableends and use a clevis pin for attachment to the metal wing tab.Jeff in TX Find the music you love on MSN Music. Start downloading now! ________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: drag wires
Original Posted By: Jeff Hill
you could also use a turnbuckle with fork end. I've had good success with buyingshackles on ebay.DJ ----- Original Message -----
you could also use a turnbuckle with fork end. I've had good success with buyingshackles on ebay.DJ ----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: drag wires
Original Posted By: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: drag wiresJeff in Texass, this is Corky in La,I will probably get much negative feed back from the puristists but this shackle problem was passed on to me from Joe C and it works well. Go to Home Depot, in the cable section and you will find some fairleads packaged on cards.Buy the 1/2 in size. Take home and vice the round part, straighten out the two ears and you have a two perfect schackles for about $1.50. They are stainless steel and strong with 3/16 holes. Try a strength test to convince yourself. Youwill find that you can fly all over Texass without losing a wing.________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: drag wiresJeff in Texass, this is Corky in La,I will probably get much negative feed back from the puristists but this shackle problem was passed on to me from Joe C and it works well. Go to Home Depot, in the cable section and you will find some fairleads packaged on cards.Buy the 1/2 in size. Take home and vice the round part, straighten out the two ears and you have a two perfect schackles for about $1.50. They are stainless steel and strong with 3/16 holes. Try a strength test to convince yourself. Youwill find that you can fly all over Texass without losing a wing.________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: drag wires
Original Posted By: Galen Hutcheson
Re: Pietenpol-List: drag wires
Original Posted By: Jeff Hill
I used 3/32" it does save weight. With all the cross bracing it's plenty.Dick N. ----- Original Message -----
I used 3/32" it does save weight. With all the cross bracing it's plenty.Dick N. ----- Original Message -----
Pietenpol-List: drag wires
Original Posted By: Clif Dawson
Re: Pietenpol-List: drag wires
Original Posted By: Galen Hutcheson
Re: Pietenpol-List: drag wires
Original Posted By: "David Paulsen"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: drag wiresJeff, For the drag wires, I used 3/32" 7X19 steel cable. I attached the thimble / cable / nicopress right to the fitting. Radius, or camphor the straightcut (drilled) hole in the fitting with a very fine file, to fit the radius of the thimble - no need for the shackle. Pre-fit the length of cable needed, and nicopress before attaching the fitting to the wood. The other end use a turnbuckle with a fork in one end for the fitting, and the other end of the turnbuckle use an eye fitting for cable - not for a pin. (the pin eye for a turnbuckle has a straight cut drilled hole for a pin). The cable eye has the camphor in it to fit the radius of the thimble, similar to what I described earlier. The fitting should be bent so it pulls directly in alignment with the cable. This is a permanent install, but should have an inspection plate in the fabric, at each end of the cable, and should be checked frequently, especiallyduring the flight test period. Check cable tension using the 'Twang' method. I use the 'Twang' method, and have never had the need to re-adjust the drag / anti-drag cable tension, however I still check it at least a couple of times ayear. I have 200 + hours flight time on the airframe. Interesting note about how B.H.P. designed the outboard fittings...they not only locate a point for the drag / anti-drag cables, they secure the wingtip bows, and even if the nuts come off, the fittings will not pull off thestructure, because of how the bolts are at 90 to each other. However, pleaseuse locking nuts, and flat washers against the wood !! I used motorcycle master links (just the half with holes in it) in several locations for flight control cables. Use aircraft #10 bolts (3/16") withthe shank all the way through, and castle nuts with cotter pins.Chuck GantzerNX770CG________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: drag wiresJeff, For the drag wires, I used 3/32" 7X19 steel cable. I attached the thimble / cable / nicopress right to the fitting. Radius, or camphor the straightcut (drilled) hole in the fitting with a very fine file, to fit the radius of the thimble - no need for the shackle. Pre-fit the length of cable needed, and nicopress before attaching the fitting to the wood. The other end use a turnbuckle with a fork in one end for the fitting, and the other end of the turnbuckle use an eye fitting for cable - not for a pin. (the pin eye for a turnbuckle has a straight cut drilled hole for a pin). The cable eye has the camphor in it to fit the radius of the thimble, similar to what I described earlier. The fitting should be bent so it pulls directly in alignment with the cable. This is a permanent install, but should have an inspection plate in the fabric, at each end of the cable, and should be checked frequently, especiallyduring the flight test period. Check cable tension using the 'Twang' method. I use the 'Twang' method, and have never had the need to re-adjust the drag / anti-drag cable tension, however I still check it at least a couple of times ayear. I have 200 + hours flight time on the airframe. Interesting note about how B.H.P. designed the outboard fittings...they not only locate a point for the drag / anti-drag cables, they secure the wingtip bows, and even if the nuts come off, the fittings will not pull off thestructure, because of how the bolts are at 90 to each other. However, pleaseuse locking nuts, and flat washers against the wood !! I used motorcycle master links (just the half with holes in it) in several locations for flight control cables. Use aircraft #10 bolts (3/16") withthe shank all the way through, and castle nuts with cotter pins.Chuck GantzerNX770CG________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: drag wires
Original Posted By: "Dangerous Dave"
Eh. Why bother with plywood on the leading edge at all?The Brown B-2 "Miss Los Angeles" flew at over 230 mph with the only reinforcementto the fabric covering being some false ribs supporting an extra layer of fabricfrom the leading edge to the spar.http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchi ... stream/The second photo shows just barely enough of the wing to reveal the fabric goingall the way to the leading edge. I didn't find any better photos in a quicksearch, but the fabric-only covering is confirmed by an entry in the April, 1935issue of Aero Digest:http://www.wingsofpeace.net/gallery/B/B ... B-2.htmlSo - easier, quicker, and cheaper than fussing with plywood or aluminum leadingedges, and lighter to boot. What say y'all?--------Bill FrankRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: drag wires
Eh. Why bother with plywood on the leading edge at all?The Brown B-2 "Miss Los Angeles" flew at over 230 mph with the only reinforcementto the fabric covering being some false ribs supporting an extra layer of fabricfrom the leading edge to the spar.http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchi ... stream/The second photo shows just barely enough of the wing to reveal the fabric goingall the way to the leading edge. I didn't find any better photos in a quicksearch, but the fabric-only covering is confirmed by an entry in the April, 1935issue of Aero Digest:http://www.wingsofpeace.net/gallery/B/B ... B-2.htmlSo - easier, quicker, and cheaper than fussing with plywood or aluminum leadingedges, and lighter to boot. What say y'all?--------Bill FrankRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: drag wires
Pietenpol-List: Re: From Everett WA....
Original Posted By: "BYD"
You could probably do it but you'd have to investigate what the angles would beand if the rods would make it through the webs on the ribs.The ribs are not spacedall the same,could be a bugger.dave--------Covering PietRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: From Everett WA....
You could probably do it but you'd have to investigate what the angles would beand if the rods would make it through the webs on the ribs.The ribs are not spacedall the same,could be a bugger.dave--------Covering PietRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: From Everett WA....
Original Posted By: Jim Markle
Jake - be sure to research "Markle" in the archives before he visits!Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 14:15:18 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Jake - be sure to research "Markle" in the archives before he visits!Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 14:15:18 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
Re: Pietenpol-List: drag wires
Original Posted By: "bender"
Check B & B Aircraft Supplies. PO Box 37, Gardner, Kansas 66030, Phone (913) 884-5930. I bought all my turnbuckles for $7.50 each.-----Original Message -----
Check B & B Aircraft Supplies. PO Box 37, Gardner, Kansas 66030, Phone (913) 884-5930. I bought all my turnbuckles for $7.50 each.-----Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: From Everett WA....
Original Posted By: gboothe5(at)comcast.net
Worried about the tail hinges (and metal work in general), I looked for and founda privately-owned welding shop about ten miles from my home. I showed oneof the employees the plan for the tail section hinges. He brought me into theshop and made a hinge from scratch in under 30 minutes while I watched (the finalproduct would be a bit more fine-tuned). He told me that he'd be able tobuild them for me if I wanted, but better yet, he told me he'd help me make allthe pieces myself. I'd pay him by the hour to help, but that included allthe tools for cutting, bending, drilling, and TIG welding the pieces. His estimatewas really reasonable.You've just got to love small shops in rural Minnesota.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/tria ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: From Everett WA....
Worried about the tail hinges (and metal work in general), I looked for and founda privately-owned welding shop about ten miles from my home. I showed oneof the employees the plan for the tail section hinges. He brought me into theshop and made a hinge from scratch in under 30 minutes while I watched (the finalproduct would be a bit more fine-tuned). He told me that he'd be able tobuild them for me if I wanted, but better yet, he told me he'd help me make allthe pieces myself. I'd pay him by the hour to help, but that included allthe tools for cutting, bending, drilling, and TIG welding the pieces. His estimatewas really reasonable.You've just got to love small shops in rural Minnesota.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/tria ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: From Everett WA....
Pietenpol-List: Re: Tail Section Hinges
Original Posted By: "echobravo4"
$60 is all Vi Kapler charges for the tail section hinges? What about the othermetal parts? Contact #'s?Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Tail Section Hinges
$60 is all Vi Kapler charges for the tail section hinges? What about the othermetal parts? Contact #'s?Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Tail Section Hinges
Original Posted By: "Gboothe5"
Here is is info-Vitalis Kapler 507-288-33221033 Forest Hills Dr. SWRochester, MN 55902I ordered mine a couple of months ago and they were $70--------Earl BrownI may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where Iintended to be.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Here is is info-Vitalis Kapler 507-288-33221033 Forest Hills Dr. SWRochester, MN 55902I ordered mine a couple of months ago and they were $70--------Earl BrownI may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where Iintended to be.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Tail Section Hinges
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
TJust curious...is there a reason why you cannot do the fittings, or do notwant to? All it takes is band saw with a metal cutting blade and a gaswelding set up (well, and a few other items). I know welding soundsdaunting, but, believe me, it's one of the most rewarding parts of the wholeproject!Gary Boothe-----Original Message-----
TJust curious...is there a reason why you cannot do the fittings, or do notwant to? All it takes is band saw with a metal cutting blade and a gaswelding set up (well, and a few other items). I know welding soundsdaunting, but, believe me, it's one of the most rewarding parts of the wholeproject!Gary Boothe-----Original Message-----