Original Posted By: "Gene Rambo"
Subject: Pietenpol-List: ELSA registrationMy cousin just bought a Avid flyer. From all reports he got a great little plane.He intends on getting his Sport Pilot rating. The FAA lists it simply as experimental, not as ELSA. by all the definitions itcould fit in the LSA category. Does he need to get this reregistered as an ELSAor does he simply fly it within the LSA guidelines?Blue Skies,Steve D________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: ELSA registration
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
Original Posted By: vahowdy(at)aol.com
Allright, I post things on here from time to time and sometimes get criticism, most times get ignored, but occasionally get listened to. I do not know everyone's background on here, some of us are A&P's, don't know how many IA's, some are engineers, and some have experience building/maintaining other aircraft. I'll just say that I have been doing this long enough that I deserve to at least be listened to.There are several threads going right now that I would like to express a couple of suggestions abput, but the statement below scares the hell out of me. So, starting with that one, I think that the logic behind this statement leads to a spiral to the bottom. If you make every decision based on the relative strength of the part in question being compared to the strength of what it is connected to, you will end up with an airplane made out of paper. I can certainly see an instance where the stainless steel bolt holding the tail brace wires could fail after hours of vibration (which those wires absolutely do to the fitting/bolt) long before the wood would fail. No tail brace wires, tail folds, you're dead. I stand by my earlier statement that I am not aware of any certified aircraft that uses stainless hardware in a structural application. Yes, there are some exotic materials used in engines, particularly jets, and there may be some in specific military applications, but not in certificated general aviation aircraft. Years ago, we had to fight tooth and nail with the FAA to even get them to allow stainless hardware replacements in cowling/inspection panels, which is the norm today.There is a lot of discussion regarding control stops. I personally do not think the aircraft needs them. There were a lot of aircraft from this era that did not have them, and they do not appear in the plans. That said, I do not question anyone who wishes to install them, it is not a bad idea. I do get concerned, however, with any limitation to control travel that includes some mechanical blockage in the control system other than at one end of the system, either the control surface or at the stick/rudder bar. Next to a total structural failure, the next worse thing that could happen to an aircraft is a control jam, particularly in the elevator system. I would ask any of you to seriously reconsider a physical limitation in the middle of the system, it is typically not allowed. I would also suggest that it be on one end or the other of the system, not at both ends which, again, is not the norm.The last most recent discussion is over wooden control sticks. They can be beautiful, there is nothing necessarily wrong with them, but we should consider a couple of things with the Piet. Because of the design of the system, the bottom of the stick below the cable attachments is a real structural part of the control system. Wood is fine for structural use (I.e. the rest of the airplane) but only if the piece is sufficient size. A 1" diameter piece of wood would probably not be strong enough in this location, it should be much larger. Also consider that the bolt at the cable attachments would be rotating, a definite no-no in wood. It appears that someone has made a steel bottom and put a wooden stick in above that. That may be fine, but is would be a huge stress at the junction point. I know of at least one friend who was killed when a wooden control stick broke off (Waco) and I would not like to have another.Feel free to flame at will, but please at least consider the above suggestions. So much of this airplane lends itself to personalization and/or experimentation, but there are some areas that are tried and proven and should not be altered without serious consideration.Gene Rambo(ducking for cover) ----- Original Message -----
Allright, I post things on here from time to time and sometimes get criticism, most times get ignored, but occasionally get listened to. I do not know everyone's background on here, some of us are A&P's, don't know how many IA's, some are engineers, and some have experience building/maintaining other aircraft. I'll just say that I have been doing this long enough that I deserve to at least be listened to.There are several threads going right now that I would like to express a couple of suggestions abput, but the statement below scares the hell out of me. So, starting with that one, I think that the logic behind this statement leads to a spiral to the bottom. If you make every decision based on the relative strength of the part in question being compared to the strength of what it is connected to, you will end up with an airplane made out of paper. I can certainly see an instance where the stainless steel bolt holding the tail brace wires could fail after hours of vibration (which those wires absolutely do to the fitting/bolt) long before the wood would fail. No tail brace wires, tail folds, you're dead. I stand by my earlier statement that I am not aware of any certified aircraft that uses stainless hardware in a structural application. Yes, there are some exotic materials used in engines, particularly jets, and there may be some in specific military applications, but not in certificated general aviation aircraft. Years ago, we had to fight tooth and nail with the FAA to even get them to allow stainless hardware replacements in cowling/inspection panels, which is the norm today.There is a lot of discussion regarding control stops. I personally do not think the aircraft needs them. There were a lot of aircraft from this era that did not have them, and they do not appear in the plans. That said, I do not question anyone who wishes to install them, it is not a bad idea. I do get concerned, however, with any limitation to control travel that includes some mechanical blockage in the control system other than at one end of the system, either the control surface or at the stick/rudder bar. Next to a total structural failure, the next worse thing that could happen to an aircraft is a control jam, particularly in the elevator system. I would ask any of you to seriously reconsider a physical limitation in the middle of the system, it is typically not allowed. I would also suggest that it be on one end or the other of the system, not at both ends which, again, is not the norm.The last most recent discussion is over wooden control sticks. They can be beautiful, there is nothing necessarily wrong with them, but we should consider a couple of things with the Piet. Because of the design of the system, the bottom of the stick below the cable attachments is a real structural part of the control system. Wood is fine for structural use (I.e. the rest of the airplane) but only if the piece is sufficient size. A 1" diameter piece of wood would probably not be strong enough in this location, it should be much larger. Also consider that the bolt at the cable attachments would be rotating, a definite no-no in wood. It appears that someone has made a steel bottom and put a wooden stick in above that. That may be fine, but is would be a huge stress at the junction point. I know of at least one friend who was killed when a wooden control stick broke off (Waco) and I would not like to have another.Feel free to flame at will, but please at least consider the above suggestions. So much of this airplane lends itself to personalization and/or experimentation, but there are some areas that are tried and proven and should not be altered without serious consideration.Gene Rambo(ducking for cover) ----- Original Message -----
Pietenpol-List: ELSA registration
Original Posted By:
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Gene, All of the concerns you've expressed are, in my opinion, dead on.Especially those concerning the control system. Thanks for braving theflames.Mike Hardaway _____
Gene, All of the concerns you've expressed are, in my opinion, dead on.Especially those concerning the control system. Thanks for braving theflames.Mike Hardaway _____
Pietenpol-List: Re: ELSA registration
Original Posted By: Michael Perez
Pietenpol-List: Re: ELSA registration
Original Posted By: Michael Perez
My Piet is just registered as Experimental. Right now I just fly it within theSport Pilot guidelines. Which really means I just fly it without a medical versusflying it with a medical. I really don't know of any advantages to tryingto get the Avid registered as an ELSA. Anyone else know of any benefits?Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 13:04:16 -0800 (PST)
My Piet is just registered as Experimental. Right now I just fly it within theSport Pilot guidelines. Which really means I just fly it without a medical versusflying it with a medical. I really don't know of any advantages to tryingto get the Avid registered as an ELSA. Anyone else know of any benefits?Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 13:04:16 -0800 (PST)
Re: Pietenpol-List: ELSA registration
Original Posted By: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB"
Just fly it.Bryan GreenElgin SC----- Original Message -----
Just fly it.Bryan GreenElgin SC----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: ELSA registration
Original Posted By: "Don Emch"
The only advantage would be that you could sign off your own annual after taking the 3 day class.Bryan GreenElgin SC----- Original Message -----
The only advantage would be that you could sign off your own annual after taking the 3 day class.Bryan GreenElgin SC----- Original Message -----
RE: Pietenpol-List: ELSA registration
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
With an ELSA registration, any LSA repairman can work on the plane. As anexperimental, the original builder can work on the plane. I believe it onlytakes a three day course to be an LSA repairman. To answer your original question, he can just fly it within the LSAguidelines.My 2 cents,Jason Holmes-----Original Message-----
With an ELSA registration, any LSA repairman can work on the plane. As anexperimental, the original builder can work on the plane. I believe it onlytakes a three day course to be an LSA repairman. To answer your original question, he can just fly it within the LSAguidelines.My 2 cents,Jason Holmes-----Original Message-----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: ELSA registration
Original Posted By: "Don Emch"
Don, there are no benefits that I see. Even if you didn't build your experimental you can still do all the work on it yourself. You just need a "Conditional Inspection" performed by any A & P, every year. The up side is that an Experimental is much easier to sell than a ELSA. By the way, The Avid is a wonderful airplane.Gene----- Original Message -----
Don, there are no benefits that I see. Even if you didn't build your experimental you can still do all the work on it yourself. You just need a "Conditional Inspection" performed by any A & P, every year. The up side is that an Experimental is much easier to sell than a ELSA. By the way, The Avid is a wonderful airplane.Gene----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
Original Posted By: Michael Perez
at the real risk of ruining what has been a positive response to my earlier tirade, I would like to make one observation about the below, although not nearly as strong as my earlier opinions. I was planning on using the three-pronged nut plates until a friend (who owns an aircraft restoration business and whose opinion I value greatly) pointed out to me one day, he said "look at those prongs, wood is composed of long fibers and when those prongs bite in, they probably cut a good 1/4 of the fibers in the location" The more I thought about it, I think he is right. Most of the prongs I have seen are at least 1/4 inch tall, so in a 1" longeron, we may be reducing the strength at that location by as much as 1/4. I have decided not to use them, although I still wish I could. I am just throwing out the observation for everyone's consideration. (by the way, he has the same objection to using staples on gussets, but I am NOT going there!!)Gene ----- Original Message -----
at the real risk of ruining what has been a positive response to my earlier tirade, I would like to make one observation about the below, although not nearly as strong as my earlier opinions. I was planning on using the three-pronged nut plates until a friend (who owns an aircraft restoration business and whose opinion I value greatly) pointed out to me one day, he said "look at those prongs, wood is composed of long fibers and when those prongs bite in, they probably cut a good 1/4 of the fibers in the location" The more I thought about it, I think he is right. Most of the prongs I have seen are at least 1/4 inch tall, so in a 1" longeron, we may be reducing the strength at that location by as much as 1/4. I have decided not to use them, although I still wish I could. I am just throwing out the observation for everyone's consideration. (by the way, he has the same objection to using staples on gussets, but I am NOT going there!!)Gene ----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
Original Posted By: "Gene Rambo"
Gene,Would it be possible to add a spacer block for the blind nut to sink into, thus preventing damage to the structural member? This may or may not be feasible due to physical space limitations, but it may be with considering. Worst case scenario, you'd have to use a slightly longer bolt.I'm not saying this is a good idea. I've never done this. It's just a suggestion. I'm not an engineer, an A&P, IA, or DAR. I just have ideas sometimes.Wayne Bressler Jr.Taildraggers, Inc.taildraggersinc.comSent from the phone that made the Blackberry obsolete.On Dec 19, 2009, at 6:51 PM, "Gene Rambo" wrote:> at the real risk of ruining what has been a positive response to my > earlier tirade, I would like to make one observation about the > below, although not nearly as strong as my earlier opinions. I was > planning on using the three-pronged nut plates until a friend (who > owns an aircraft restoration business and whose opinion I value > greatly) pointed out to me one day, he said "look at those prongs, > wood is composed of long fibers and when those prongs bite in, they > probably cut a good 1/4 of the fibers in the location" The more I > thought about it, I think he is right. Most of the prongs I have > seen are at least 1/4 inch tall, so in a 1" longeron, we may be > reducing the strength at that location by as much as 1/4. I have > decided not to use them, although I still wish I could. I am just > throwing out the observation for everyone's consideration. (by the > way, he has the same objection to using staples on gussets, but I am > NOT going there!!)>> Gene________________________________________________________________________________
Gene,Would it be possible to add a spacer block for the blind nut to sink into, thus preventing damage to the structural member? This may or may not be feasible due to physical space limitations, but it may be with considering. Worst case scenario, you'd have to use a slightly longer bolt.I'm not saying this is a good idea. I've never done this. It's just a suggestion. I'm not an engineer, an A&P, IA, or DAR. I just have ideas sometimes.Wayne Bressler Jr.Taildraggers, Inc.taildraggersinc.comSent from the phone that made the Blackberry obsolete.On Dec 19, 2009, at 6:51 PM, "Gene Rambo" wrote:> at the real risk of ruining what has been a positive response to my > earlier tirade, I would like to make one observation about the > below, although not nearly as strong as my earlier opinions. I was > planning on using the three-pronged nut plates until a friend (who > owns an aircraft restoration business and whose opinion I value > greatly) pointed out to me one day, he said "look at those prongs, > wood is composed of long fibers and when those prongs bite in, they > probably cut a good 1/4 of the fibers in the location" The more I > thought about it, I think he is right. Most of the prongs I have > seen are at least 1/4 inch tall, so in a 1" longeron, we may be > reducing the strength at that location by as much as 1/4. I have > decided not to use them, although I still wish I could. I am just > throwing out the observation for everyone's consideration. (by the > way, he has the same objection to using staples on gussets, but I am > NOT going there!!)>> Gene________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
Original Posted By: Wayne Bressler
sure, that would be a great alternative. Like I said, I only offered the observation for consideration. Another reason I am not using the pronged nutplates is that when I drilled the bolts through the main spar and longerons, the hole comes out behind a gusset very close to a joint, so I cannot get to the back side to back-drill for the nutplate (which is a larger diameter than the bolt size)not that anyone else might want to do this, but my plan is to drill a large hole in the outboard gusset (3/4 or so) and because the fabric is tight against the side of the fuselage in that area, just glueing the fabric to the gusset and then cutting out the hole. Than I can use one of those round pronged hole covers (or even a small aluminum cover and screws) to hide the hole. That way, I can put nuts on after the fuselage is covered.Gene ----- Original Message -----
sure, that would be a great alternative. Like I said, I only offered the observation for consideration. Another reason I am not using the pronged nutplates is that when I drilled the bolts through the main spar and longerons, the hole comes out behind a gusset very close to a joint, so I cannot get to the back side to back-drill for the nutplate (which is a larger diameter than the bolt size)not that anyone else might want to do this, but my plan is to drill a large hole in the outboard gusset (3/4 or so) and because the fabric is tight against the side of the fuselage in that area, just glueing the fabric to the gusset and then cutting out the hole. Than I can use one of those round pronged hole covers (or even a small aluminum cover and screws) to hide the hole. That way, I can put nuts on after the fuselage is covered.Gene ----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage
Original Posted By: Ben Charvet
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: ELSA registration
Original Posted By: Ryan Mueller
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: ELSA registration
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: ELSA registration
Re: Pietenpol-List: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
Original Posted By: Michael Perez
Gene,-Your-tirade-has now gone too far, and needs some reining-in. If those 1/4"prongs are bad, I guess I am in trouble with the small screws I used to hold the nut plates to the longeron. But I am willing to bet I can fly that airplane for a thousand-hours without that longeron breaking there. -I can just see the NTSB report now, as the investigators drive away from the smoldering hole: "normal flight was unable to me maintained when after 1000+ hours, catastrophic failure occurred simultaneously in both the top 1" x 1" spruce longerons due to the two tiny wood screws that were used to hold on the nutplates used to secure the AN-3 bolts that held down the horizontal stabilizer"- NOTDan HelsperPoplar Grove, IL.-________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:50:10 -0800 (PST)
Gene,-Your-tirade-has now gone too far, and needs some reining-in. If those 1/4"prongs are bad, I guess I am in trouble with the small screws I used to hold the nut plates to the longeron. But I am willing to bet I can fly that airplane for a thousand-hours without that longeron breaking there. -I can just see the NTSB report now, as the investigators drive away from the smoldering hole: "normal flight was unable to me maintained when after 1000+ hours, catastrophic failure occurred simultaneously in both the top 1" x 1" spruce longerons due to the two tiny wood screws that were used to hold on the nutplates used to secure the AN-3 bolts that held down the horizontal stabilizer"- NOTDan HelsperPoplar Grove, IL.-________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:50:10 -0800 (PST)
Re: Pietenpol-List: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
Original Posted By: helspersew(at)aol.com
Dan, I think that the prongs are way different from a screw or nail.- A screw pushes fibers aside and goes between them.- the prongs are sharp and cut the fibers.- Also, there are three prongs so that as it digs in, they are pretty much cutting all of the fibers in that area.- Some of the nutplates I have seen have prongs that may be longer than 1/4, and they are arranged so that they overlap each other (viewed edge on).- If the nutplate is, say, a half inch in diameter, it might be almost like having a 1/2" bolt hole in the spar, or at least 1/4" deep.-I didn't say not to use the pronged nutplates, just offered an observation made by someone else-that I think is valid and should be at least considered.- I am not saying that using one will cause you to crash, I might still use them myself, but-I think the suggestion someone had about glueing on a small plywood plate for the nutplate to bite into is a great idea!-Gene----- Original Message -----
Dan, I think that the prongs are way different from a screw or nail.- A screw pushes fibers aside and goes between them.- the prongs are sharp and cut the fibers.- Also, there are three prongs so that as it digs in, they are pretty much cutting all of the fibers in that area.- Some of the nutplates I have seen have prongs that may be longer than 1/4, and they are arranged so that they overlap each other (viewed edge on).- If the nutplate is, say, a half inch in diameter, it might be almost like having a 1/2" bolt hole in the spar, or at least 1/4" deep.-I didn't say not to use the pronged nutplates, just offered an observation made by someone else-that I think is valid and should be at least considered.- I am not saying that using one will cause you to crash, I might still use them myself, but-I think the suggestion someone had about glueing on a small plywood plate for the nutplate to bite into is a great idea!-Gene----- Original Message -----
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
I for one am very dissappointed in the lack of flames over this topic. Whathas this list degenerated to? Here a person of experience and integrityoffers real wisdom based on fact, and spouts opinions that fly in the faceof desire, and no one takes him to task?Good post, Gene. Jack PhillipsNX899JPRaleigh, NC _____
I for one am very dissappointed in the lack of flames over this topic. Whathas this list degenerated to? Here a person of experience and integrityoffers real wisdom based on fact, and spouts opinions that fly in the faceof desire, and no one takes him to task?Good post, Gene. Jack PhillipsNX899JPRaleigh, NC _____
Re: Pietenpol-List: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
Original Posted By: helspersew(at)aol.com
Re: Pietenpol-List: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
Original Posted By: helspersew(at)aol.com
Dan, I think that the prongs are way different from a screw or nail. A screw pushes fibers aside and goes between them. the prongs are sharp and cut the fibers. Also, there are three prongs so that as it digs in, they are pretty much cutting all of the fibers in that area. Some of the nutplates I have seen have prongs that may be longer than 1/4, and they are arranged so that they overlap each other (viewed edge on). If the nutplate is, say, a half inch in diameter, it might be almost like having a 1/2" bolt hole in the spar, or at least 1/4" deep.I didn't say not to use the pronged nutplates, just offered an observation made by someone else that I think is valid and should be at least considered. I am not saying that using one will cause you to crash, I might still use them myself, but I think the suggestion someone had about glueing on a small plywood plate for the nutplate to bite into is a great idea!Gene ----- Original Message -----
Dan, I think that the prongs are way different from a screw or nail. A screw pushes fibers aside and goes between them. the prongs are sharp and cut the fibers. Also, there are three prongs so that as it digs in, they are pretty much cutting all of the fibers in that area. Some of the nutplates I have seen have prongs that may be longer than 1/4, and they are arranged so that they overlap each other (viewed edge on). If the nutplate is, say, a half inch in diameter, it might be almost like having a 1/2" bolt hole in the spar, or at least 1/4" deep.I didn't say not to use the pronged nutplates, just offered an observation made by someone else that I think is valid and should be at least considered. I am not saying that using one will cause you to crash, I might still use them myself, but I think the suggestion someone had about glueing on a small plywood plate for the nutplate to bite into is a great idea!Gene ----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
Original Posted By: Michael Perez
Do to a popular desire for flames, I will make this comment:If you're replacing hardware on a certified aircraft, be certain that it meets the same specification. Don't just assume it's a 125 ksi steel bolt, go look up the parts breakdown for that plane and be sure of what you're installing.Happy holidays, folks!David Paule I stand by my earlier statement that I am not aware of any certified aircraft that uses stainless hardware in a structural application. ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:44:04 -0800 (PST)
Do to a popular desire for flames, I will make this comment:If you're replacing hardware on a certified aircraft, be certain that it meets the same specification. Don't just assume it's a 125 ksi steel bolt, go look up the parts breakdown for that plane and be sure of what you're installing.Happy holidays, folks!David Paule I stand by my earlier statement that I am not aware of any certified aircraft that uses stainless hardware in a structural application. ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:44:04 -0800 (PST)
Re: Pietenpol-List: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
Original Posted By: airlion
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: ELSA registration
Original Posted By: "Gary Boothe"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: ELSA registrationThank, all o y'all (that is the plural, plural of y'all.) for the answer on E-LSAvs E Amature built on a totally different aircraft. It appears that the onlydifference is if he can do the "annual" or if he needs and A&P to do it. I havesent him this info and he is thinking about leaving it as E-amature built.He kind of likes the idea of a second set of eyes looking over his work everyyear. Blue Skies and Merry Christmas,Steve D ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: ELSA registrationThank, all o y'all (that is the plural, plural of y'all.) for the answer on E-LSAvs E Amature built on a totally different aircraft. It appears that the onlydifference is if he can do the "annual" or if he needs and A&P to do it. I havesent him this info and he is thinking about leaving it as E-amature built.He kind of likes the idea of a second set of eyes looking over his work everyyear. Blue Skies and Merry Christmas,Steve D ________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: ELSA registration
Original Posted By: "Gene & Tammy"
Gene,Some believe that an ELSA is easier to sell than an EAB. The buyer of an ELSA only needs to take a 3 day course and he/she may then do the "Condition Inspection" and sign it off. The buyer of an EAB will always have to have an A&P, IA do the inspection; unless the former owner will do it for you.That is one reason I have my Waiex certified as ELSA,,, and it was easy to do.Thanks,Ray KrauseN51YX, Waiex, TD, Jab 3300 (1197), AeroCarb, Sensinich 54X62 wood prop, Dynon D-180, Garmin SL-30, 327, 296, 167 hrs.----- Original Message -----
Gene,Some believe that an ELSA is easier to sell than an EAB. The buyer of an ELSA only needs to take a 3 day course and he/she may then do the "Condition Inspection" and sign it off. The buyer of an EAB will always have to have an A&P, IA do the inspection; unless the former owner will do it for you.That is one reason I have my Waiex certified as ELSA,,, and it was easy to do.Thanks,Ray KrauseN51YX, Waiex, TD, Jab 3300 (1197), AeroCarb, Sensinich 54X62 wood prop, Dynon D-180, Garmin SL-30, 327, 296, 167 hrs.----- Original Message -----
> Pietenpol-List: Re: ELSA registration
Original Posted By: Jim