Original Posted By: Ben Charvet
Wow... these darn snow days are becoming very educational. I didn't want to hijackDouwe's discussion on the cost of covering, but since the topic is beingdiscussed, I have a few questions. I honestly haven't done much research on covering materials. I've made commentsto others like "I'm going to use the Stewart System and latex paint", but Ireally don't know what I'm talking about where these materials or processes areconcerned. Polyfiber, Ceconite and Dacron are all fabrics, right? Are theremore? I have heard that MEK is nasty stuff, which is a key ingredient in atleast one of the processes. I know there is also a need for a respirator withsome of this stuff, so I've been leaning towards the Stewart System since I'vegot a 6 year old hanging around me most of the time. Same goes for latex paint,I've heard that it is not only cheaper, but easier to apply and people havegot good mileage from using it. Someone on here has had a panel hanging ona fence post for several years, right? The only information I've got on covering is the Stewart System DVDs, which arenicely done and make the process seem very straightforward. There is an outfitin Arkansas (Aircraft Fabric & Finishes I believe) that came to our EAA hangarfor a covering workshop a few years ago, but I missed it. Some were talkingabout having them back... perhaps we'll be able to arrange that this year...you listening Mr. Markle? Perhaps someone can point me (and others) to a more comprehensive comparison ofthese products and processes. I know that the search feature is available, butnot knowing the difference between a fabric or a process it becomes difficultto make sense of the different topics that might be found. Having a littlebetter base of information would probably go a long way in understanding someof these covering discussions. Perhaps there is an "intro to covering" writeup out there that covers the different fabrics and processes for those of usthat have never done this stuff?Thanks!--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 11:51:22 -0500
Pietenpol-List: Covering Processes
> Pietenpol-List: Covering Processes
Original Posted By:> hangar10(at)cox.net
We are going to do the fabric very soon. We got the price from Aircraft Spruce for the materials then took those prices to a local supplier at our local air port. I asked them if they could be competitive price wise item for item. They bid the materials at a lower price than Aircraft Spruce and they pick up the shipping. The shipping on hazardous materials like paint is a real consideration. You might try your local guys. > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Covering Processes
We are going to do the fabric very soon. We got the price from Aircraft Spruce for the materials then took those prices to a local supplier at our local air port. I asked them if they could be competitive price wise item for item. They bid the materials at a lower price than Aircraft Spruce and they pick up the shipping. The shipping on hazardous materials like paint is a real consideration. You might try your local guys. > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Covering Processes
Original Posted By: "Charles Campbell"
5 years? Awesome! Kevin Purtee offered me a quick lesson on covering offline. I was confusing thematerials and processes with trade names and visa versa. I'm sure there isstill plenty to figure out, but that helps me to understand some of the termsthat I hear and read about.--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
5 years? Awesome! Kevin Purtee offered me a quick lesson on covering offline. I was confusing thematerials and processes with trade names and visa versa. I'm sure there isstill plenty to figure out, but that helps me to understand some of the termsthat I hear and read about.--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: keeping costs down, and NX799B progress
Original Posted By: Kenneth Bickers
I don't know where you're buying your hardware store stuff, but you can't do it here. I thought I'd try that route and the hardware store charged more than A/S. I do my experimenting with the real thing. ----- Original Message -----
I don't know where you're buying your hardware store stuff, but you can't do it here. I thought I'd try that route and the hardware store charged more than A/S. I do my experimenting with the real thing. ----- Original Message -----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
Original Posted By: TOM MICHELLE BRANT
I have used the Stewart System and think its great.I used Ceconite fabric and allthe rest is Stewart.All of it has cost about 2200.The difference is about 1100in paint.The reason I didn't go with housepaint is I plan on keeping the planefor a long time and there is not much uv protection in housepaint Stewartshas 100% protection and if done right will never need a recover even if leftoutside.As to the other systems I've used them all and would like to hang on to the 3 brain cells I have left.dave--------Covering PietRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
I have used the Stewart System and think its great.I used Ceconite fabric and allthe rest is Stewart.All of it has cost about 2200.The difference is about 1100in paint.The reason I didn't go with housepaint is I plan on keeping the planefor a long time and there is not much uv protection in housepaint Stewartshas 100% protection and if done right will never need a recover even if leftoutside.As to the other systems I've used them all and would like to hang on to the 3 brain cells I have left.dave--------Covering PietRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
Original Posted By: "Dangerous Dave"
Hi Dave, I believe the Dulux weathershield house paint I'm using has very good UV protection, the test sample I put outside 2 years ago shows no sign of fabric deterioration.regards Mike T.----- Original Message -----
Hi Dave, I believe the Dulux weathershield house paint I'm using has very good UV protection, the test sample I put outside 2 years ago shows no sign of fabric deterioration.regards Mike T.----- Original Message -----
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Not so fast, Dave! Your work is definitely exceptional, but I question thestatement that "... there is not much uv protection in housepaint...".Almost all paints contain Titanium Dioxide...the same Titanium Dioxide usedin sun block. House paints would have to block UV if they were to protectwood. Benjamin Moore Exterior Aura brand paints describe their UV protectionas "Extreme."Rhetorical question - How long should one leave the fabric on a wood framedairplane, no matter what dope/paint is used? Gary Boothe-----Original Message-----
Not so fast, Dave! Your work is definitely exceptional, but I question thestatement that "... there is not much uv protection in housepaint...".Almost all paints contain Titanium Dioxide...the same Titanium Dioxide usedin sun block. House paints would have to block UV if they were to protectwood. Benjamin Moore Exterior Aura brand paints describe their UV protectionas "Extreme."Rhetorical question - How long should one leave the fabric on a wood framedairplane, no matter what dope/paint is used? Gary Boothe-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
Original Posted By: "Gboothe5"
Gary,The point I'm trying to make is that it takes 3 cross coats of Eco Fill togive the fabric full protection,then the 4 coats of paint for a finish.It hasa scientifically proven UV rating.House paint has UV protection also but howmany coats do you need to get to the 100% protection,probably 3 crosscoats thats6 actual coats,does anyone put on that much and what are the weight penalties.Can'thelp it, its the anal A&P in me.The one thing I have noticed with thehouse paint finishes that I have seen is that you can see the weave of the fabricthrough the paint indicating there's only 2 coats.And do you wet the fabricbefore painting to get maximum adhesion?dave--------Covering PietRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Gary,The point I'm trying to make is that it takes 3 cross coats of Eco Fill togive the fabric full protection,then the 4 coats of paint for a finish.It hasa scientifically proven UV rating.House paint has UV protection also but howmany coats do you need to get to the 100% protection,probably 3 crosscoats thats6 actual coats,does anyone put on that much and what are the weight penalties.Can'thelp it, its the anal A&P in me.The one thing I have noticed with thehouse paint finishes that I have seen is that you can see the weave of the fabricthrough the paint indicating there's only 2 coats.And do you wet the fabricbefore painting to get maximum adhesion?dave--------Covering PietRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Certainly apples vs. oranges. As you may have noticed on the Bell Piet, theywent to great length to give the fabric a weave look as in old linen. I havenot investigated Sears Weatherbeater paint, or any other brand other thanBenjamin Moore, as I have locked in on the Aura line from BM, a zero VOCpaint. Their data sheet advertises never more than 2 coats for full coverageand protection, including wind driven rain. As an A&P myself, I fullyrespect your background and perspective, but can't help being intrigued byout-of-the-box thinking...just want to keep the facts straight.Gary-----Original Message-----
Certainly apples vs. oranges. As you may have noticed on the Bell Piet, theywent to great length to give the fabric a weave look as in old linen. I havenot investigated Sears Weatherbeater paint, or any other brand other thanBenjamin Moore, as I have locked in on the Aura line from BM, a zero VOCpaint. Their data sheet advertises never more than 2 coats for full coverageand protection, including wind driven rain. As an A&P myself, I fullyrespect your background and perspective, but can't help being intrigued byout-of-the-box thinking...just want to keep the facts straight.Gary-----Original Message-----
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
I'm just throwing this out to "stir the pot" and encourage flaming emails...I know there have been some quasi-scientific studies on UV protection fromhouse paint, but has anyone ever compared the weight of fabric finished withhouse-paint versus other finishes? I know whatever the finish, it can't beas heavy as the polyurethane (PolyFiber's Aerothane) that I used.There are (at least) 6 factors to weigh when choosing a finish:1. Durability. Here, nothing can touch polyurethane. The stuff isbulletproof - so much so that the only way to remove it for repair is tosand it off. House paint is a big unknown here, unless you use the sameformulation as is already flying on someone's airplane. It is one thing tobe durable on a house, but fabric flexes and drums in flight and the painmust be able to flex with it. Housepaint in general is not designed to dothis, and static tests such as painting a panel and leaving it out in thesun doesn't necessarily measure this. Dope and PolyTone (and presumably theStewart System) are all designed to be flexible and have good durability.2. Weight. Here I think butyrate dope has the edge, but I have no data toprove this. I know two part paints like polyurethane don't lose much weightas they cure, and I don't think latex does either. It would be interestingto do a test such as this, comparing dope, latex, polyurethane, the Stewartsystem, and PolyTone.3. Final Finish. Polyurethane tops the list here, if you want a shiny, wetlook finish that you can see yourself in. For a duller finish, dope orPolyTone makes a very snice, smooth finish. I have not seen a StewartSystems paint job that I know of. The latex paint jobs I've seen have notimpressed me with the finish.4. Cost. As I understand it, the costs are ranked from cheapest to mostexpensive as follows: Latex, Dope, Stewart, PolyTone, Polyurethane. 5. Ease of Application. Nothing could be easier than rolling on a coat ofhouse paint, but the end result will look like rolled on house paint.Sprayed latex is more trouble, but still doesn't have much in the way ofVOCs. Next is probably the Stewart System, with its water based paint. Thenwould be dope and PolyTone, with polyurethane the most trouble to paint andthe most dangerous, requiring a full face mask with supplied air due to thetoxic gases generated as it cures.6. Ease of Repair. Don't think you won't ever have to repair the fabric onyour Pietenpol. As the saying goes "Feces Occurs". The easiest system torepair is PolyTone, since you can just wipe the repair area with a ragsoaked in MEK and the finish wipes right off. Dope is nearly as easy. Idon't know enough about the Stewart System to know how to repair it. Latexand polyurethane must be sanded off and that is very difficult to do withoutgoing too far and damaging the underlying fabric.Having laid all this out, I can only comment from experience in all six ofthese areas with polyurethane, and my comment there is that I would not useit again. It is very difficult to apply without getting a lot oforange-peel (at least for me), it is EXTREMELY difficult to repair, it isvery expensive and it is very heavy. The only thing good about it is it'sextremely durable and it looks good. Next time I would use the PolyFibersystem with PolyTone paint.Let the flames begin.Jack PhillipsNX899JP "Icarus Plummet"Raleigh, NC-----Original Message-----
I'm just throwing this out to "stir the pot" and encourage flaming emails...I know there have been some quasi-scientific studies on UV protection fromhouse paint, but has anyone ever compared the weight of fabric finished withhouse-paint versus other finishes? I know whatever the finish, it can't beas heavy as the polyurethane (PolyFiber's Aerothane) that I used.There are (at least) 6 factors to weigh when choosing a finish:1. Durability. Here, nothing can touch polyurethane. The stuff isbulletproof - so much so that the only way to remove it for repair is tosand it off. House paint is a big unknown here, unless you use the sameformulation as is already flying on someone's airplane. It is one thing tobe durable on a house, but fabric flexes and drums in flight and the painmust be able to flex with it. Housepaint in general is not designed to dothis, and static tests such as painting a panel and leaving it out in thesun doesn't necessarily measure this. Dope and PolyTone (and presumably theStewart System) are all designed to be flexible and have good durability.2. Weight. Here I think butyrate dope has the edge, but I have no data toprove this. I know two part paints like polyurethane don't lose much weightas they cure, and I don't think latex does either. It would be interestingto do a test such as this, comparing dope, latex, polyurethane, the Stewartsystem, and PolyTone.3. Final Finish. Polyurethane tops the list here, if you want a shiny, wetlook finish that you can see yourself in. For a duller finish, dope orPolyTone makes a very snice, smooth finish. I have not seen a StewartSystems paint job that I know of. The latex paint jobs I've seen have notimpressed me with the finish.4. Cost. As I understand it, the costs are ranked from cheapest to mostexpensive as follows: Latex, Dope, Stewart, PolyTone, Polyurethane. 5. Ease of Application. Nothing could be easier than rolling on a coat ofhouse paint, but the end result will look like rolled on house paint.Sprayed latex is more trouble, but still doesn't have much in the way ofVOCs. Next is probably the Stewart System, with its water based paint. Thenwould be dope and PolyTone, with polyurethane the most trouble to paint andthe most dangerous, requiring a full face mask with supplied air due to thetoxic gases generated as it cures.6. Ease of Repair. Don't think you won't ever have to repair the fabric onyour Pietenpol. As the saying goes "Feces Occurs". The easiest system torepair is PolyTone, since you can just wipe the repair area with a ragsoaked in MEK and the finish wipes right off. Dope is nearly as easy. Idon't know enough about the Stewart System to know how to repair it. Latexand polyurethane must be sanded off and that is very difficult to do withoutgoing too far and damaging the underlying fabric.Having laid all this out, I can only comment from experience in all six ofthese areas with polyurethane, and my comment there is that I would not useit again. It is very difficult to apply without getting a lot oforange-peel (at least for me), it is EXTREMELY difficult to repair, it isvery expensive and it is very heavy. The only thing good about it is it'sextremely durable and it looks good. Next time I would use the PolyFibersystem with PolyTone paint.Let the flames begin.Jack PhillipsNX899JP "Icarus Plummet"Raleigh, NC-----Original Message-----
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Jack,Just some thoughts:Durability. Is it possible to have it both ways? You state that nothing cantouch polyurethane, but then continue to point out that Latex (andpolyurethane) must be sanded off. That sounds pretty tough.Weight. Benjamin Moore Aura paints have 46% solids. Not being an educatedperson, that tells me that 54% of the weight will evaporate.Flexibility. Almost all paints are subjected to some sort of flexibilitytest. The BM Aura brand paints are tested to ASTM D522.a conical test thatshows the product's ability to stay bonded to a substrate as the substrateis bent around a cone.No flames here.just facts. Again, I ask the rhetorical question: How long should a fabric and paintapplication last on a wood framed aircraft, before it is removed to merelyinspect the frame? I've been told 10 years is appropriate. Gary
Jack,Just some thoughts:Durability. Is it possible to have it both ways? You state that nothing cantouch polyurethane, but then continue to point out that Latex (andpolyurethane) must be sanded off. That sounds pretty tough.Weight. Benjamin Moore Aura paints have 46% solids. Not being an educatedperson, that tells me that 54% of the weight will evaporate.Flexibility. Almost all paints are subjected to some sort of flexibilitytest. The BM Aura brand paints are tested to ASTM D522.a conical test thatshows the product's ability to stay bonded to a substrate as the substrateis bent around a cone.No flames here.just facts. Again, I ask the rhetorical question: How long should a fabric and paintapplication last on a wood framed aircraft, before it is removed to merelyinspect the frame? I've been told 10 years is appropriate. Gary
Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
Original Posted By: norm
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
Original Posted By: Rick Holland
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
I knew something wasn't right with some of you guys... and it wasn't just the MEK.coevst(at)yahoo.com wrote:> many builders use meth--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
I knew something wasn't right with some of you guys... and it wasn't just the MEK.coevst(at)yahoo.com wrote:> many builders use meth--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
I forgot to add that the 1/4" x 1/4" strips were recessed 1/16" to allow the plywoodsheet to but against the LE and provide a minimal seam. Ran the sandingblock along the edge and it is smooth and straight. It worked well, but I'vegot a no-no that I may have to address... I used 1/4" nails to secure the frontedge and then clamped at the rear. From what I read I probably shouldn't havedone this. I guess I am hoping that the spar varnish and a light felt wrapwill provide adequate protection. --------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
I forgot to add that the 1/4" x 1/4" strips were recessed 1/16" to allow the plywoodsheet to but against the LE and provide a minimal seam. Ran the sandingblock along the edge and it is smooth and straight. It worked well, but I'vegot a no-no that I may have to address... I used 1/4" nails to secure the frontedge and then clamped at the rear. From what I read I probably shouldn't havedone this. I guess I am hoping that the spar varnish and a light felt wrapwill provide adequate protection. --------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
Original Posted By: "bamabuilder"
The fact of the matter is that all solvent-based products are becoming less andless common all the time, and in the not-too-distant future, legislation willprobably make products like Butyrate dope and Polytone illegal, or at least highlyregulated. Look how much metal gets powder coated these days, compared towet paint. Because of this movement towards low VOC finishes, fabric coveredaircraft builders will all probably eventually be forced to use other methodsthan the "traditional" finishes.There will be those who will say that they will NEVER be able to stop people finishingwith dope, but I remember not so long ago hearing people saying that therewas no way that they would be able to stop people from smoking in publicplaces. It's just a matter of time.Luckily there are some people out there like Stewart's who have developed new low-VOC,water-based products, and some homebuilders that are experimenting withlatex house paint. Before long we'll have sufficient real-world experience tobe able to determine just how well these alternative finishes work on a fabric-coveredaircraft that gets stored in an open hangar (or not), and is exposedto the actual stresses of flight, over the long term.Unfortunately, I don't think it's a question of IF, but rather WHEN the "normal"finish for a fabric covered aircraft will be water-based.I'm a big fan of "traditional" ways, but I also can appreciate newer or even justdifferent technologies that are safer for us to use. Saving a few brain cellssounds like a good idea to me. I know I will need to use some of mine, fromtime to time, so it's probably best to hang on to the ones I have.Bill C.(stepping off the soap box)Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
The fact of the matter is that all solvent-based products are becoming less andless common all the time, and in the not-too-distant future, legislation willprobably make products like Butyrate dope and Polytone illegal, or at least highlyregulated. Look how much metal gets powder coated these days, compared towet paint. Because of this movement towards low VOC finishes, fabric coveredaircraft builders will all probably eventually be forced to use other methodsthan the "traditional" finishes.There will be those who will say that they will NEVER be able to stop people finishingwith dope, but I remember not so long ago hearing people saying that therewas no way that they would be able to stop people from smoking in publicplaces. It's just a matter of time.Luckily there are some people out there like Stewart's who have developed new low-VOC,water-based products, and some homebuilders that are experimenting withlatex house paint. Before long we'll have sufficient real-world experience tobe able to determine just how well these alternative finishes work on a fabric-coveredaircraft that gets stored in an open hangar (or not), and is exposedto the actual stresses of flight, over the long term.Unfortunately, I don't think it's a question of IF, but rather WHEN the "normal"finish for a fabric covered aircraft will be water-based.I'm a big fan of "traditional" ways, but I also can appreciate newer or even justdifferent technologies that are safer for us to use. Saving a few brain cellssounds like a good idea to me. I know I will need to use some of mine, fromtime to time, so it's probably best to hang on to the ones I have.Bill C.(stepping off the soap box)Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
Original Posted By: "Jack Phillips"
I've been reading the last couple of days that the only way to remove latex orpoly is to sand. I'm no A&P, but that's not totally true. There are a couple ofproducts that can be bought from most big box or mom n pops hardware stores.A good one goes by Klean-Strip Brush Cleaner. The contents are fairly toxic tosay the least. Acetone, Methanol, Methylene Chloride, Toluene, and Xylene. It'smade to clean the crude that builds up in paint brushes. To remove the paintfrom a surface, just soak a rag and wipe away. The paint will begin to softenvery quickly. I can't testify for the covering material on an airplane, butI do know it WILL NOT harm a paint brush. It can be used on all brushes, chinabristle or nylon.By the way new guy/lurker Now, does anyone care to take the spoon?JVRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
I've been reading the last couple of days that the only way to remove latex orpoly is to sand. I'm no A&P, but that's not totally true. There are a couple ofproducts that can be bought from most big box or mom n pops hardware stores.A good one goes by Klean-Strip Brush Cleaner. The contents are fairly toxic tosay the least. Acetone, Methanol, Methylene Chloride, Toluene, and Xylene. It'smade to clean the crude that builds up in paint brushes. To remove the paintfrom a surface, just soak a rag and wipe away. The paint will begin to softenvery quickly. I can't testify for the covering material on an airplane, butI do know it WILL NOT harm a paint brush. It can be used on all brushes, chinabristle or nylon.By the way new guy/lurker Now, does anyone care to take the spoon?JVRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Have you tried it on polyurethane? I'd be very surprised if it works. Ihave tried methyl ethyl ketone (MEK), acetone, methylene chloride andtoluene with no result.Normally this is a good thing. I've spilled brake fluid, gasoline, compassfluid and other organic solvents on my paint with no blemish, which wouldcertainly not be true for dope and I doubt if it's true for latex. The onlyproblem with polyurethane comes when trying to remove it. Once you havesanded it down to the silver, MEK works nicely to remove it (dissolving thesilver underneath so the polyurethane comes off in sheets), but the only wayI've found to get down to the silver is sandpaper and elbow grease.Jack PhillipsNX899JP "Icarus Plummet"Raleigh, NC-----Original Message-----
Have you tried it on polyurethane? I'd be very surprised if it works. Ihave tried methyl ethyl ketone (MEK), acetone, methylene chloride andtoluene with no result.Normally this is a good thing. I've spilled brake fluid, gasoline, compassfluid and other organic solvents on my paint with no blemish, which wouldcertainly not be true for dope and I doubt if it's true for latex. The onlyproblem with polyurethane comes when trying to remove it. Once you havesanded it down to the silver, MEK works nicely to remove it (dissolving thesilver underneath so the polyurethane comes off in sheets), but the only wayI've found to get down to the silver is sandpaper and elbow grease.Jack PhillipsNX899JP "Icarus Plummet"Raleigh, NC-----Original Message-----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
Original Posted By: Rick Holland
Welcome Brad! A good bunch of folks here and lots of information. Hey Jack, can you send me that directory again when you get a minute... I meantto save it to my notes and must have forgot. Thanks!--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 13:40:28 -0700Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
Welcome Brad! A good bunch of folks here and lots of information. Hey Jack, can you send me that directory again when you get a minute... I meantto save it to my notes and must have forgot. Thanks!--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 13:40:28 -0700Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
Original Posted By: Ben Charvet
Like this?http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Bro ... 79.jpgBill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 17:12:51 -0500
Like this?http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Bro ... 79.jpgBill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 17:12:51 -0500
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Brad,Co-incidentally, just yesterday I was on a project in Bishop, Ca., which isa desert climate, and saw some tinted stain over wood that was over 3 yearsold. There was no degredation of the finish. I asked about UV protection,but the applicator had no knowledge. Below is a link to the manufacturer(Flood) and an MSDS. Neither address UV, but I notice there is some TitaniumDioxide. I'm sure a simple note, or call, to them would confirm the level ofUV protection.http://www.duspec.com/DuSpec2/document/ ... tId=664597 http://www.duspec.com/DuSpec2/document/ ... tId=664599 Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, Running! Tail done, Fuselage on gear (24 ribs down.) -----Original Message-----
Brad,Co-incidentally, just yesterday I was on a project in Bishop, Ca., which isa desert climate, and saw some tinted stain over wood that was over 3 yearsold. There was no degredation of the finish. I asked about UV protection,but the applicator had no knowledge. Below is a link to the manufacturer(Flood) and an MSDS. Neither address UV, but I notice there is some TitaniumDioxide. I'm sure a simple note, or call, to them would confirm the level ofUV protection.http://www.duspec.com/DuSpec2/document/ ... tId=664597 http://www.duspec.com/DuSpec2/document/ ... tId=664599 Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, Running! Tail done, Fuselage on gear (24 ribs down.) -----Original Message-----
Re: Pietenpol-List: clear doped look
Original Posted By: Rick Holland
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: clear doped look
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: clear doped look
RE: RE: Pietenpol-List: Piet Directory
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Gene and Charles sorry for the hassle. The attached file is a txt document.You should be able to open it then just add your info in the same order andI will cut and paste. You will still have a problem opening the Directoryunless you download www.openoffice.org assuggested. I could send it to you as a PDF but it would be messed up.Thanks,Jack _____
Gene and Charles sorry for the hassle. The attached file is a txt document.You should be able to open it then just add your info in the same order andI will cut and paste. You will still have a problem opening the Directoryunless you download www.openoffice.org assuggested. I could send it to you as a PDF but it would be messed up.Thanks,Jack _____
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet Directory
Original Posted By: "bamabuilder"
Ok! I'm just about computer illiterate. I downloaded openoffice.org, created a folder in folder options in control panel. Now when I click on the link in Jack's E-mail it sends me to a block which still tells me to do what I just told you about. Now what do I do, coach? Chuck----- Original Message -----
Ok! I'm just about computer illiterate. I downloaded openoffice.org, created a folder in folder options in control panel. Now when I click on the link in Jack's E-mail it sends me to a block which still tells me to do what I just told you about. Now what do I do, coach? Chuck----- Original Message -----
Re: RE: Pietenpol-List: Piet Directory
Original Posted By: Jack
Jack, I'm already in the list. Just wanted to get the updated version. I tried the openoffice.org bit but it still doesn't work. Just posted a note about this. If you can tell me what I'm doing wrong I would appreciate it. Thanks, Chuck (Charles) ----- Original Message -----
Jack, I'm already in the list. Just wanted to get the updated version. I tried the openoffice.org bit but it still doesn't work. Just posted a note about this. If you can tell me what I'm doing wrong I would appreciate it. Thanks, Chuck (Charles) ----- Original Message -----
Original Posted By: Charles Campbell
Not sure what doing anything with Folder Options has to do with it. You downloadedthe OpenOffice installation file...did you then run the installer and installthe program? If so it should have given you the choice to associate Exceland other standard Office file formats with the program, or maybe even have doneso automatically. If you really get stumped, let me know. I've got a Gotomeetingaccount, and we could do a one time remote session and I can resolve theissue.Ryan------Original Message------
Not sure what doing anything with Folder Options has to do with it. You downloadedthe OpenOffice installation file...did you then run the installer and installthe program? If so it should have given you the choice to associate Exceland other standard Office file formats with the program, or maybe even have doneso automatically. If you really get stumped, let me know. I've got a Gotomeetingaccount, and we could do a one time remote session and I can resolve theissue.Ryan------Original Message------
Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
Original Posted By: "DOMIT"
That's great to hear Mark. Glad you're climbing back up and getting back on yourPiet. If I don't get to see you before then I hope you can come to the WestCoast Pietenpol Gathering June 4th. (I'll get an info sheet sent out soon). Mike GroahTulare Ca Sent from my iPhoneOn Feb 7, 2011, at 11:21 AM, Mark Roberts wrote:> Hi All!> > Well, in the pursute of building a dream, life happens. I began my> quest of building the Piet a year and a half ago, while I was employed> and enjoying life. 2 months later, a lay off that lasted 1 year and 3> months occurred and I bowed out of the project until it made sence to> buy epoxy and wood over food and toilet paper... (somethings just> can't be postponed, and the Sears catalog isn't autoshipped> anymore...).> > Well, about 6 weeks ago I signed a contract that is beginning to> actually send money to me, and I am able to begin to wave the flame of> the dream back to life. It will be another couple of months before I> can justify the time I need to begin making sawdust, but I had to log> on and let some of the fine folks I have met here know I am coming> back to life...
)> > To that end, I HAVE to share where we'll be moving this week... First,> the readers digest version of what's up: No income=no house> payment=lose house=need to rent (and celebrate, as I HATED our current> house... Gated community, no privacy, not big enough to build plane> comfortably)=gotta move.... Got new job JUST in time (who rent's to> unemployed no-income for a year and 3 months family?)=cash flow=look> for perfect house=found one (the only one that actually called me back> in earnest)=UNREAL side benefit....> > OK, now that that's over, here's the cool stuff I've wanted to share> with those that know me on the list... The place comes with a BARN> that has a concrete floor and is 2 stories tall! (Pictures attached).> I have full access to the barn, and it is big enough to build 2 planes> at once... This is no animal critter barn, but an airplane building> barn! When I saw it, I tried not to let it effect my decision to move> there. If the rest wasn't right, the deal would be over... BUT, it all> fell into place perfectly, and this week we move to 'the country'> where I will begin to help mulch my wife's garden with Spruce and> Poplar sawdust!> > More as I finally develop a web-log to build my Build History (any> suggestion greatly appreciated...) and pictures will be forthcoming.> > Here's the pic's I took of the Barn when I took my wife out to show> her the house for the first time... Woo Hoo! (Oh, and solar panels on> the house feed the meter here BACKWARDS so I have no electrical> expense... Life is good...! )> > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
That's great to hear Mark. Glad you're climbing back up and getting back on yourPiet. If I don't get to see you before then I hope you can come to the WestCoast Pietenpol Gathering June 4th. (I'll get an info sheet sent out soon). Mike GroahTulare Ca Sent from my iPhoneOn Feb 7, 2011, at 11:21 AM, Mark Roberts wrote:> Hi All!> > Well, in the pursute of building a dream, life happens. I began my> quest of building the Piet a year and a half ago, while I was employed> and enjoying life. 2 months later, a lay off that lasted 1 year and 3> months occurred and I bowed out of the project until it made sence to> buy epoxy and wood over food and toilet paper... (somethings just> can't be postponed, and the Sears catalog isn't autoshipped> anymore...).> > Well, about 6 weeks ago I signed a contract that is beginning to> actually send money to me, and I am able to begin to wave the flame of> the dream back to life. It will be another couple of months before I> can justify the time I need to begin making sawdust, but I had to log> on and let some of the fine folks I have met here know I am coming> back to life...
)> > To that end, I HAVE to share where we'll be moving this week... First,> the readers digest version of what's up: No income=no house> payment=lose house=need to rent (and celebrate, as I HATED our current> house... Gated community, no privacy, not big enough to build plane> comfortably)=gotta move.... Got new job JUST in time (who rent's to> unemployed no-income for a year and 3 months family?)=cash flow=look> for perfect house=found one (the only one that actually called me back> in earnest)=UNREAL side benefit....> > OK, now that that's over, here's the cool stuff I've wanted to share> with those that know me on the list... The place comes with a BARN> that has a concrete floor and is 2 stories tall! (Pictures attached).> I have full access to the barn, and it is big enough to build 2 planes> at once... This is no animal critter barn, but an airplane building> barn! When I saw it, I tried not to let it effect my decision to move> there. If the rest wasn't right, the deal would be over... BUT, it all> fell into place perfectly, and this week we move to 'the country'> where I will begin to help mulch my wife's garden with Spruce and> Poplar sawdust!> > More as I finally develop a web-log to build my Build History (any> suggestion greatly appreciated...) and pictures will be forthcoming.> > Here's the pic's I took of the Barn when I took my wife out to show> her the house for the first time... Woo Hoo! (Oh, and solar panels on> the house feed the meter here BACKWARDS so I have no electrical> expense... Life is good...! )> > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering ProcessesOriginal Posted By: V Groah
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com> > > Wow... these darn snow days are becoming very educational. I didn't want to hijack Douwe's discussion on the cost of covering=2C but since the topic is being discussed=2C I have a few questions. > > I honestly haven't done much research on covering materials. I've made comments to others like "I'm going to use the Stewart System and latex paint"=2C but I really don't know what I'm talking about where these materials or processes are concerned. Polyfiber=2C Ceconite and Dacron are all fabrics=2C right? Are there more? I have heard that MEK is nasty stuff=2C which is a key ingredient in at least one of the processes. I know there is also a need for a respirator with some of this stuff=2C so I've been leaning towards the Stewart System since I've got a 6 year old hanging around me most of the time. Same goes for latex paint=2C I've heard that it is not only cheaper=2C but easier to apply and people have got good mileage from using it. Someone on here has had a panel hanging on a fence post for several years=2C right? > > The only information I've got on covering is the Stewart System DVDs=2C which are nicely done and make the process seem very straightforward. There is an outfit in Arkansas (Aircraft Fabric & Finishes I believe) that came to our EAA hangar for a covering workshop a few years ago=2C but I missed it. Some were talking about having them back... perhaps we'll be able to arrange that this year... you listening Mr. Markle? > > Perhaps someone can point me (and others) to a more comprehensive comparison of these products and processes. I know that the search feature is available=2C but not knowing the difference between a fabric or a process it becomes difficult to make sense of the different topics that might be found. Having a little better base of information would probably go a long way in understanding some of these covering discussions. Perhaps there is an "intro to covering" write up out there that covers the different fabrics and processes for those of us that have never done this stuff?> > Thanks!> > --------> Mark Chouinard> Wings=2C Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage> > > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 449#329449> > > > > > > ============================================> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com> > > Wow... these darn snow days are becoming very educational. I didn't want to hijack Douwe's discussion on the cost of covering=2C but since the topic is being discussed=2C I have a few questions. > > I honestly haven't done much research on covering materials. I've made comments to others like "I'm going to use the Stewart System and latex paint"=2C but I really don't know what I'm talking about where these materials or processes are concerned. Polyfiber=2C Ceconite and Dacron are all fabrics=2C right? Are there more? I have heard that MEK is nasty stuff=2C which is a key ingredient in at least one of the processes. I know there is also a need for a respirator with some of this stuff=2C so I've been leaning towards the Stewart System since I've got a 6 year old hanging around me most of the time. Same goes for latex paint=2C I've heard that it is not only cheaper=2C but easier to apply and people have got good mileage from using it. Someone on here has had a panel hanging on a fence post for several years=2C right? > > The only information I've got on covering is the Stewart System DVDs=2C which are nicely done and make the process seem very straightforward. There is an outfit in Arkansas (Aircraft Fabric & Finishes I believe) that came to our EAA hangar for a covering workshop a few years ago=2C but I missed it. Some were talking about having them back... perhaps we'll be able to arrange that this year... you listening Mr. Markle? > > Perhaps someone can point me (and others) to a more comprehensive comparison of these products and processes. I know that the search feature is available=2C but not knowing the difference between a fabric or a process it becomes difficult to make sense of the different topics that might be found. Having a little better base of information would probably go a long way in understanding some of these covering discussions. Perhaps there is an "intro to covering" write up out there that covers the different fabrics and processes for those of us that have never done this stuff?> > Thanks!> > --------> Mark Chouinard> Wings=2C Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage> > > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 449#329449> > > > > > > ============================================> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
Original Posted By: "K5YAC"
> > I built spring gear using the Bengelis style> > design you mentioned (attached). You are correct, if I ever> > wanted a different spring I would pretty much have to build> > another set from scratch. If the other design is stronger> > and more modular why not go for it?> >> >> > rick> >> > On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at> > 3:48 PM, K5YAC > > wrote:> >> > > >> >> >> > I'm contemplating my landing gear and I've found at> > least two options where spring style shock absorbers are> > concerned. One is from page 255 of Tony Bingelis'> > "The Sportplane Builder" and the other is from Sy> > Debolt as found in an old issue of the Buckeye Pietenpol> > Newsletter. I think the drawing may have been done by> > Frank Pavliga as it notes "Redrawn by FSP".> > Forgive me if I've goofed some of this information...> > just trying to give proper credit. Both are shown below.> >> >> >> >> > I have the materials for either, but I'm leaning> > towards the type shown in the Buckeye newsletter primarily> > because the assembly looks more durable and would allow> > removal of the different sections and spring should it be> > necessary. As Tony points out in his writing, "spring> > (C) and collar (B) must be slipped on to upper tube before> > welding lower (D) washer in place." Maybe I am> > worrying about a non-issue, but if the spring were to break,> > or if I just wanted to replace it with a softer or stiffer> > version, it looks like I'd have a lot of work to do in> > order to accomplish this. The Buckeye version looks like> > it can be completely disassembled for service or repair.> >> >> >> >> > Is my thinking correct? Can anyone provide an opinion on> > one over the other? I think that Tony's version is> > easier to construct, but I'm trying to look beyond the> > fabrication and consider maintenance and durability.> >> >> >> >> > Thanks!> >> >> >> >> >> > The Sportplane Builder - Pg. 255 - Tony Bingelis> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Buckeye Pietenpol Newsletter - Sy Debolt> >> >> >> >> >> > --------> >> > Mark Chouinard> >> > Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on> > Fuselage> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Read this topic online here:> >> >> >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 355#329355> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > ==========> >> > st"> > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List> >> > ==========> >> > http://forums.matronics.com> >> > ==========> >> > le, List Admin.> >> > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution> >> > ==========> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > --> > Rick Holland> > Castle Rock, Colorado> >> > "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell> > bad"> >> >>>-- Rick HollandCastle Rock, Colorado"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
> > I built spring gear using the Bengelis style> > design you mentioned (attached). You are correct, if I ever> > wanted a different spring I would pretty much have to build> > another set from scratch. If the other design is stronger> > and more modular why not go for it?> >> >> > rick> >> > On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at> > 3:48 PM, K5YAC > > wrote:> >> > > >> >> >> > I'm contemplating my landing gear and I've found at> > least two options where spring style shock absorbers are> > concerned. One is from page 255 of Tony Bingelis'> > "The Sportplane Builder" and the other is from Sy> > Debolt as found in an old issue of the Buckeye Pietenpol> > Newsletter. I think the drawing may have been done by> > Frank Pavliga as it notes "Redrawn by FSP".> > Forgive me if I've goofed some of this information...> > just trying to give proper credit. Both are shown below.> >> >> >> >> > I have the materials for either, but I'm leaning> > towards the type shown in the Buckeye newsletter primarily> > because the assembly looks more durable and would allow> > removal of the different sections and spring should it be> > necessary. As Tony points out in his writing, "spring> > (C) and collar (B) must be slipped on to upper tube before> > welding lower (D) washer in place." Maybe I am> > worrying about a non-issue, but if the spring were to break,> > or if I just wanted to replace it with a softer or stiffer> > version, it looks like I'd have a lot of work to do in> > order to accomplish this. The Buckeye version looks like> > it can be completely disassembled for service or repair.> >> >> >> >> > Is my thinking correct? Can anyone provide an opinion on> > one over the other? I think that Tony's version is> > easier to construct, but I'm trying to look beyond the> > fabrication and consider maintenance and durability.> >> >> >> >> > Thanks!> >> >> >> >> >> > The Sportplane Builder - Pg. 255 - Tony Bingelis> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Buckeye Pietenpol Newsletter - Sy Debolt> >> >> >> >> >> > --------> >> > Mark Chouinard> >> > Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on> > Fuselage> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Read this topic online here:> >> >> >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 355#329355> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > ==========> >> > st"> > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List> >> > ==========> >> > http://forums.matronics.com> >> > ==========> >> > le, List Admin.> >> > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution> >> > ==========> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > --> > Rick Holland> > Castle Rock, Colorado> >> > "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell> > bad"> >> >>>-- Rick HollandCastle Rock, Colorado"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Covering Processes
Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet Directory
Original Posted By: Ryan Mueller
> > Hello all, I just sent the listing to all that have submitted their info.> If you didn't receive the listing and want to be included fill out the> template and return to my home email jack(at)textors.com. > Thanks,> Jack> > > Jack Textor> 29 SW 58th Drive> Des Moines, IA 50312> www.textors.com> > First Name Last Name Street City State Zip Country Home Base Occupation Employer Wk Phone Home Phone Cell Primary Email Piet Model Engine N Number Flying? Y/N Web Site Project Status Comments________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 11:48:22 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet Directory
> > Hello all, I just sent the listing to all that have submitted their info.> If you didn't receive the listing and want to be included fill out the> template and return to my home email jack(at)textors.com. > Thanks,> Jack> > > Jack Textor> 29 SW 58th Drive> Des Moines, IA 50312> www.textors.com> > First Name Last Name Street City State Zip Country Home Base Occupation Employer Wk Phone Home Phone Cell Primary Email Piet Model Engine N Number Flying? Y/N Web Site Project Status Comments________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 11:48:22 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet Directory
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet Directory
Original Posted By: "Ryan Mueller"
> > Hello all, I just sent the listing to all that have submitted their info. > If you didn't receive the listing and want to be included fill out the > template and return to my home email jack(at)textors.com. > Thanks, > Jack > > > Jack Textor > 29 SW 58th Drive > Des Moines, IA 50312 > www.textors.com > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Piet ... ntribution ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet Directory
> > Hello all, I just sent the listing to all that have submitted their info. > If you didn't receive the listing and want to be included fill out the > template and return to my home email jack(at)textors.com. > Thanks, > Jack > > > Jack Textor > 29 SW 58th Drive > Des Moines, IA 50312 > www.textors.com > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Piet ... ntribution ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet Directory