Original Posted By: Ken Beanlands
Sorry, In my last message about fittings I meant to say I am making them "1/2" LONGER" at the attach end so you have room to insert bolts, put wrenches on, etc.Doug________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Fittings
Pietenpol-List: Fittings
Original Posted By: "John Dilatush"
Pieters,I have been following the discussion re: steel alloys/grain structure/bend allowances/welding/ annealing/ stress relieving/ etc.This is all very pertinent to building the best possible aircraft airframe onecan and I agree with doing things the right way!But the thought keeps returning to where I read in one of the earlier Buckeye PietenpolNewsletters that Mr Pietenpol often used material salvaged from 55 gallonsteel drums for his fittings! I doubt if he was too concerned with alloy,or bending with or against the grain. The only thing that he cautioned thebuilder about was that all fittings should be bent cold.The only conclusion that I can draw from this, is that the fittings as he designedthem must be awfully over designed!As for getting the blanks laser cut by someone else and then fitting them up tothe structure, I know in my own case that often I would have to remake the fittingsover (sometimes several times) because the Pietenpol plans do not takeinto account any bend allowances. Also the plans were reverse engineered in 1933by a young high school student with a new Sears/Roebuck drafting set. I believeit was Orin Hoopman who was the student and he used an existing plane towork from. It seems difficult to use these plans to layout the blanks, I hadto do it in my shop and make adjustments to fit the structure.And while I'm on my soapbox, it is easy make the blanks in house using a metalcutting bandsaw with a 1/4" x 18 or 24 inch tooth blade. I made up my bandsawfrom an old junk wood cutting bandsaw and then powered it with a gear motor tobring the cutting speed of the blade down. And if you need to make duplicatefittings, simply drill a couple of holes in a non-critical area of the fitting(you can call them mini lightning holes if you want), bolt the pieces togetherand then gang cut the blanks. The deburring can be done with a file, followedby a wire brush on your grinder, and then a Scotch Brite wheel on the grinder.Doesn't take long, costs a lot less and you can brag that you built everythingyourself!Thanks for your time,John Dilatush NX114D________________________________________________________________________________
Pieters,I have been following the discussion re: steel alloys/grain structure/bend allowances/welding/ annealing/ stress relieving/ etc.This is all very pertinent to building the best possible aircraft airframe onecan and I agree with doing things the right way!But the thought keeps returning to where I read in one of the earlier Buckeye PietenpolNewsletters that Mr Pietenpol often used material salvaged from 55 gallonsteel drums for his fittings! I doubt if he was too concerned with alloy,or bending with or against the grain. The only thing that he cautioned thebuilder about was that all fittings should be bent cold.The only conclusion that I can draw from this, is that the fittings as he designedthem must be awfully over designed!As for getting the blanks laser cut by someone else and then fitting them up tothe structure, I know in my own case that often I would have to remake the fittingsover (sometimes several times) because the Pietenpol plans do not takeinto account any bend allowances. Also the plans were reverse engineered in 1933by a young high school student with a new Sears/Roebuck drafting set. I believeit was Orin Hoopman who was the student and he used an existing plane towork from. It seems difficult to use these plans to layout the blanks, I hadto do it in my shop and make adjustments to fit the structure.And while I'm on my soapbox, it is easy make the blanks in house using a metalcutting bandsaw with a 1/4" x 18 or 24 inch tooth blade. I made up my bandsawfrom an old junk wood cutting bandsaw and then powered it with a gear motor tobring the cutting speed of the blade down. And if you need to make duplicatefittings, simply drill a couple of holes in a non-critical area of the fitting(you can call them mini lightning holes if you want), bolt the pieces togetherand then gang cut the blanks. The deburring can be done with a file, followedby a wire brush on your grinder, and then a Scotch Brite wheel on the grinder.Doesn't take long, costs a lot less and you can brag that you built everythingyourself!Thanks for your time,John Dilatush NX114D________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: bracket materials
Original Posted By: "Les Schubert"
----- Original Message -----
----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: bracket materials
Original Posted By: "Les Schubert"
Les, the main reason is cause our butt's are in these flying machines.Also, the Piet fittings are all very easy to make. Most of it is made fromstrip material. The GN-1 (my plane) goes about it entirely differently.The fittings on the GN-1 have multiple bends, angles, etc.It's not really harder to make fittitngs from 4130 for a Piet.... and only alittle bit harder to make them from 4130 for a GN-1.I know there are some 100% Piet fanatic purists on the list, but geeez....if you have modern materials available that are stronger than what was usedin 1930 then I say USE IT.also..... who actually uses wood lift struts nowadays?! I seem to recallwe're all using 4130 streamline tube.I'm not being a smartass.... just tellin' it like I see it. :-)DJ VeghN74DVwww.raptoronline.comMesa, AZ----- Original Message -----
Les, the main reason is cause our butt's are in these flying machines.Also, the Piet fittings are all very easy to make. Most of it is made fromstrip material. The GN-1 (my plane) goes about it entirely differently.The fittings on the GN-1 have multiple bends, angles, etc.It's not really harder to make fittitngs from 4130 for a Piet.... and only alittle bit harder to make them from 4130 for a GN-1.I know there are some 100% Piet fanatic purists on the list, but geeez....if you have modern materials available that are stronger than what was usedin 1930 then I say USE IT.also..... who actually uses wood lift struts nowadays?! I seem to recallwe're all using 4130 streamline tube.I'm not being a smartass.... just tellin' it like I see it. :-)DJ VeghN74DVwww.raptoronline.comMesa, AZ----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Fittings
Original Posted By: "John Carmen"
John,keep in mind I am building a GN-1 which more complex bracket's and fittingsthan a Piet. Alot of my brackets are 4130 .090" with multiple angles,bends etc.I am the one who is getting the parts lasercut. Besides, it's coting me$120 to get all wing parts cut. I did the math and found that if I boughtthe steel from AS&S, the steel alone would cost $100. So for $20 more Iget all 22 pieces cut.... and cut to within .005" accuracy.I believe Bernie's philosophy was use what you have at your disposal that ischeap and effective.My lasercutting process follows that idea 100%. It's going to be cheap andVERY effective.Why does Bernie's "philosophy" always have to mean "use materials andmethods of 1930!". bullsh*t.Bernie may have used a 55 gallon drum for material. Great. 55 gallons drumswere probably a plenty where he was at. In his day that was a great way toget cheap material. Does that mean we should use a 55 gallon drum?maybe.... but what I think it really means is we should use what is at ourdisposal....DJ VeghN74DVwww.raptoronline.comMesa, AZ> And while I'm on my soapbox, it is easy make the blanks in house using ametal cutting bandsaw with a 1/4" x 18 or 24 inch tooth blade. I made up mybandsaw from an old junk wood cutting bandsaw and then powered it with agear motor to bring the cutting speed of the blade down. And if you need tomake duplicate fittings, simply drill a couple of holes in a non-criticalarea of the fitting (you can call them mini lightning holes if you want),bolt the pieces together and then gang cut the blanks. The deburring can bedone with a file, followed by a wire brush on your grinder, and then aScotch Brite wheel on the grinder. Doesn't take long, costs a lot less andyou can brag that you built everything yourself!>> Thanks for your time,>> John Dilatush NX114DThis email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit .________________________________________________________________________________
John,keep in mind I am building a GN-1 which more complex bracket's and fittingsthan a Piet. Alot of my brackets are 4130 .090" with multiple angles,bends etc.I am the one who is getting the parts lasercut. Besides, it's coting me$120 to get all wing parts cut. I did the math and found that if I boughtthe steel from AS&S, the steel alone would cost $100. So for $20 more Iget all 22 pieces cut.... and cut to within .005" accuracy.I believe Bernie's philosophy was use what you have at your disposal that ischeap and effective.My lasercutting process follows that idea 100%. It's going to be cheap andVERY effective.Why does Bernie's "philosophy" always have to mean "use materials andmethods of 1930!". bullsh*t.Bernie may have used a 55 gallon drum for material. Great. 55 gallons drumswere probably a plenty where he was at. In his day that was a great way toget cheap material. Does that mean we should use a 55 gallon drum?maybe.... but what I think it really means is we should use what is at ourdisposal....DJ VeghN74DVwww.raptoronline.comMesa, AZ> And while I'm on my soapbox, it is easy make the blanks in house using ametal cutting bandsaw with a 1/4" x 18 or 24 inch tooth blade. I made up mybandsaw from an old junk wood cutting bandsaw and then powered it with agear motor to bring the cutting speed of the blade down. And if you need tomake duplicate fittings, simply drill a couple of holes in a non-criticalarea of the fitting (you can call them mini lightning holes if you want),bolt the pieces together and then gang cut the blanks. The deburring can bedone with a file, followed by a wire brush on your grinder, and then aScotch Brite wheel on the grinder. Doesn't take long, costs a lot less andyou can brag that you built everything yourself!>> Thanks for your time,>> John Dilatush NX114DThis email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit .________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: bracket materials
Original Posted By: "Les Schubert"
Hmmm because it is fun to talk shop !!!!!----- Original Message -----
Hmmm because it is fun to talk shop !!!!!----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Fittings
Original Posted By: "DJ Vegh"
I hope that when you laid out the templates for the CNC that youlengthened some of the parts where appropriate. If you did not, thenyou are going to have a whole bunch that just will not fit. I learnedthe hard way and allowed generally 1/2 inch extra on the connectorholes. Not all need it, but try with a cardboard template first to seeif you can in fact get the bolt clearance needed.________________________________________________________________________________
I hope that when you laid out the templates for the CNC that youlengthened some of the parts where appropriate. If you did not, thenyou are going to have a whole bunch that just will not fit. I learnedthe hard way and allowed generally 1/2 inch extra on the connectorholes. Not all need it, but try with a cardboard template first to seeif you can in fact get the bolt clearance needed.________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Fittings
Original Posted By: "Ian Holland"
I don't quite understand what you mean... can you elaborate?DJ VeghN74DVwww.raptoronline.comMesa, AZ----- Original Message -----
I don't quite understand what you mean... can you elaborate?DJ VeghN74DVwww.raptoronline.comMesa, AZ----- Original Message -----
RE: Pietenpol-List: Fittings
Original Posted By: DJ Vegh [mailto:aircamper(at)imagedv.com]
BHP is sort of notorious for not leaving clearance between his bolt headsand the rest of the structure. This may not (probably doesn't) apply to theGN-1 plans.Gene-----Original Message-----
BHP is sort of notorious for not leaving clearance between his bolt headsand the rest of the structure. This may not (probably doesn't) apply to theGN-1 plans.Gene-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Fittings
Original Posted By: "MikeD"
horzpool(at)goldengate.ne wrote:> Mike> Several of us who run the A-65 use a Sensenich 72x42. I get a cruise of > about 75 mph.> Also, welcome to the list.> Dick> ---Thank you Dick!Since the A-75 only becomes a "75" when allowed to run up to a bit higher rpm thanthe A-65, it sounds then like a 72-40 or 72-38 is in the ballpark.- Mike--------Piet-builder-who-hopes-to-be-flying-next-summerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fittings
horzpool(at)goldengate.ne wrote:> Mike> Several of us who run the A-65 use a Sensenich 72x42. I get a cruise of > about 75 mph.> Also, welcome to the list.> Dick> ---Thank you Dick!Since the A-75 only becomes a "75" when allowed to run up to a bit higher rpm thanthe A-65, it sounds then like a 72-40 or 72-38 is in the ballpark.- Mike--------Piet-builder-who-hopes-to-be-flying-next-summerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fittings
Original Posted By: "Max Hegler"
I've seen references here and there to steel fittings laser cut and bent by emachineshop.Does emachineshop have a set of drawing files on file (courtesy ofsome industrious homebuilder) which they would reproduce when requested, or doI need to work from scratch to provide CAD files?Thanks,Mikep.s. I have more foolish/innocent questions to go, this is likely just the tipof the iceberg!
--------Piet-builder-who-hopes-to-be-flying-next-summerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
I've seen references here and there to steel fittings laser cut and bent by emachineshop.Does emachineshop have a set of drawing files on file (courtesy ofsome industrious homebuilder) which they would reproduce when requested, or doI need to work from scratch to provide CAD files?Thanks,Mikep.s. I have more foolish/innocent questions to go, this is likely just the tipof the iceberg!
--------Piet-builder-who-hopes-to-be-flying-next-summerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________Pietenpol-List: Re: Fittings
Original Posted By: Oscar Zuniga
[quote="jbfjr(at)peoplepc.com"]Mike,I used the E-Machineshop.com drawing program to draw the spar fittings for my GN-1since there are multiple copies of them and that lends itself to "mass" production.I didn't want to use E-Machineshop for the fab work because of thecost and lead time, however. What surprised me after drawing the parts was thatE-Machineshop will let you store the created files as AutoCad drawings, althoughthe caveat is that there are no dimensions shown. I then used AutoCad toadd the dimensions (with assistance since I'm not AutoCad fluent).I found a company here in Houston that used waterjet to cut out the 16 spar bracketsfor the GN-1 for about $120. They are very precise and it's fun to seeaircraft steel cut with water!BTW, I had previously thought you could get machine shops to build just from theAutoCad data files, but the ones I talked to insisted on also having a dimensionedpaper drawing, which is why I had to add the dimensions.I've always wondered why someone doesn't offer all the bracket drawings in AutoCadformat, perhaps they do for the Pietenpol, but I couldn't find any for theGN-1.One more thing, looking back on the project there are many brackets that just aren't worth drawing on AutoCad because they can be easily fabricated out of strapmaterial, plus you will have to "adjust" them for a custom fit anyway!Regards,John F.GN-1 AircamperCorvair 164cidRichmond, TX[quote]Having dealt with a few machine shops in my day gigs, I believe the main reasonis to have something to cross-check to, as it is not unheard of to have discrepancies.I used to sketch parts I wanted on paper, or do simple AutoCAD drawings,then hand them over to the mechanical designed to turn into finished drawings,as he worked about 17 times faster than me. But sometimes despite our bestefforts there would be something critical missing.One poster mentioned having the parts done at emachineshop was economical, butone man's economical may be another mans "holy tarnation that's pricey!". I intendto draw all the parts on AutoCAD anyway, although perhaps the odd hole maybe left out for final custom fitting as you say. TBD!I haven;t watched water jet cutting, but my first chance to see alser cutting livewas a shop that had a 1500W Co2 laser, and a cutting machine with an 8' by16' platen..! It sliced through 1/4" steel plate at a frightening rate. Veryimpressive.Cheers,Mike D.--------Piet-builder-who-hopes-to-be-flying-next-summerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
[quote="jbfjr(at)peoplepc.com"]Mike,I used the E-Machineshop.com drawing program to draw the spar fittings for my GN-1since there are multiple copies of them and that lends itself to "mass" production.I didn't want to use E-Machineshop for the fab work because of thecost and lead time, however. What surprised me after drawing the parts was thatE-Machineshop will let you store the created files as AutoCad drawings, althoughthe caveat is that there are no dimensions shown. I then used AutoCad toadd the dimensions (with assistance since I'm not AutoCad fluent).I found a company here in Houston that used waterjet to cut out the 16 spar bracketsfor the GN-1 for about $120. They are very precise and it's fun to seeaircraft steel cut with water!BTW, I had previously thought you could get machine shops to build just from theAutoCad data files, but the ones I talked to insisted on also having a dimensionedpaper drawing, which is why I had to add the dimensions.I've always wondered why someone doesn't offer all the bracket drawings in AutoCadformat, perhaps they do for the Pietenpol, but I couldn't find any for theGN-1.One more thing, looking back on the project there are many brackets that just aren't worth drawing on AutoCad because they can be easily fabricated out of strapmaterial, plus you will have to "adjust" them for a custom fit anyway!Regards,John F.GN-1 AircamperCorvair 164cidRichmond, TX[quote]Having dealt with a few machine shops in my day gigs, I believe the main reasonis to have something to cross-check to, as it is not unheard of to have discrepancies.I used to sketch parts I wanted on paper, or do simple AutoCAD drawings,then hand them over to the mechanical designed to turn into finished drawings,as he worked about 17 times faster than me. But sometimes despite our bestefforts there would be something critical missing.One poster mentioned having the parts done at emachineshop was economical, butone man's economical may be another mans "holy tarnation that's pricey!". I intendto draw all the parts on AutoCAD anyway, although perhaps the odd hole maybe left out for final custom fitting as you say. TBD!I haven;t watched water jet cutting, but my first chance to see alser cutting livewas a shop that had a 1500W Co2 laser, and a cutting machine with an 8' by16' platen..! It sliced through 1/4" steel plate at a frightening rate. Veryimpressive.Cheers,Mike D.--------Piet-builder-who-hopes-to-be-flying-next-summerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Fittings
Original Posted By: "MikeD"
Mike After reading your post I emailed emachine shop and they replied that if you havethe order number of the previous customer they can email the drawings and youcan choose the parts you want.So if someone has used them and is kind enough to post their order number you areon your way.CarsonRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fittings
Mike After reading your post I emailed emachine shop and they replied that if you havethe order number of the previous customer they can email the drawings and youcan choose the parts you want.So if someone has used them and is kind enough to post their order number you areon your way.CarsonRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fittings
Re: Pietenpol-List: Fittings
Original Posted By: helspersew(at)aol.com
John,Congratulations. Looks very nice with those laminated legs. A great feeling of accomplishment I'm sure!.Dan HelsperPuryear, TN.________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fittings
John,Congratulations. Looks very nice with those laminated legs. A great feeling of accomplishment I'm sure!.Dan HelsperPuryear, TN.________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fittings
RE: Pietenpol-List: Fittings
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Jack,All of mine are drilled at 13/64..not flight tested!Gary
Jack,All of mine are drilled at 13/64..not flight tested!Gary
RE: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fittings
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Dan,I'm guessing that will be the consensus, I've been reaming as you have sofar.JackDSM-----Original Message-----
Dan,I'm guessing that will be the consensus, I've been reaming as you have sofar.JackDSM-----Original Message-----
Re: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fittings
Original Posted By: "Jack"
I'd rather ream to 13/64 than to have to drive the bolt in with a hammer.----- Original Message -----
I'd rather ream to 13/64 than to have to drive the bolt in with a hammer.----- Original Message -----
RE: Pietenpol-List: Fittings
Original Posted By: gboothe5(at)comcast.net
An AN3 bolt is NOT 3/16" That is your problem. An AN# is a #10 drill. Try that and it will work perfectly. Do not drill oversized!Gene Rambo
An AN3 bolt is NOT 3/16" That is your problem. An AN# is a #10 drill. Try that and it will work perfectly. Do not drill oversized!Gene Rambo
Pietenpol-List: Re: Fittings
Original Posted By: "carson"
Our beloved plane is the ultimate steampunk!A little something to go with it;http://www.gentlemansemporium.com/store ... v=-&__utmk 9989269And these!http://www.gentlemansemporium.com/store ... v=-&__utmk 9989269Clif________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fittings
Our beloved plane is the ultimate steampunk!A little something to go with it;http://www.gentlemansemporium.com/store ... v=-&__utmk 9989269And these!http://www.gentlemansemporium.com/store ... v=-&__utmk 9989269Clif________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fittings
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fittings
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Carson there are three basic groups of drill sets, Letter, Number andFractional.- See a chart here.http://www.gearhob.com/eng/design/drill_eng.htm JackDSMPS- That was an interesting post earlier regarding the #10 drill, but... theplans call our a fractional size of 3/16th on many holes., hummm.-----Original Message-----
Carson there are three basic groups of drill sets, Letter, Number andFractional.- See a chart here.http://www.gearhob.com/eng/design/drill_eng.htm JackDSMPS- That was an interesting post earlier regarding the #10 drill, but... theplans call our a fractional size of 3/16th on many holes., hummm.-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Fittings
Original Posted By: "carson"
Sorry for being stupid but what is #10 As I have had the same trouble and would love to have the right sized drlii bitCarsonRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fittings
Sorry for being stupid but what is #10 As I have had the same trouble and would love to have the right sized drlii bitCarsonRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fittings
Original Posted By: "Jack"
Sorry for being stupid but what is #10 As I have had the same trouble and would love to have the right sized drlii bitCarsonRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Sorry for being stupid but what is #10 As I have had the same trouble and would love to have the right sized drlii bitCarsonRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fittings
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Carson there are three basic groups of drill sets, Letter, Number andFractional. See a chart here.http://www.gearhob.com/eng/design/drill_eng.htm JackDSMPS That was an interesting post earlier regarding the #10 drill, but... theplans call our a fractional size of 3/16th on many holes., hummm.-----Original Message-----
Carson there are three basic groups of drill sets, Letter, Number andFractional. See a chart here.http://www.gearhob.com/eng/design/drill_eng.htm JackDSMPS That was an interesting post earlier regarding the #10 drill, but... theplans call our a fractional size of 3/16th on many holes., hummm.-----Original Message-----
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fittings
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Carson,I've had good luck with the higher end Harbor Freight dill sets seen here,http://www.harborfreight.com/115-piece- ... -1611.html Another useful link, http://www.carbidedepot.com/resources.htm JackDSM-----Original Message-----
Carson,I've had good luck with the higher end Harbor Freight dill sets seen here,http://www.harborfreight.com/115-piece- ... -1611.html Another useful link, http://www.carbidedepot.com/resources.htm JackDSM-----Original Message-----
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fittings
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
The Pietenpol plans were drawn before the AN standards came into being (theywere developed around 1940), and include such oddities as # 7 wood screws toattach the horizontal stabilizer to the upper longerons. Try finding a # 7screw at Home Depot.Aircraft hardware should be purchased for ANY critical component on aPietenpol (or any other airplane), and the old standard is AN hardware. NASor MS standard parts are the newer designations, but in many cases are justrenumbered AN partsRon Alexander wrote a good article on this in Sport Aviation a couple ofyears ago:http://exp-aircraft.com/library/alexand ... are.htmlSo you should use AN3 bolts where the plans call for 3/16", and use # 10drills (or better yet, reamers) for the holes.Jack PhillipsNX899JP "Icarus Plummet"Raleigh, NC-----Original Message-----
The Pietenpol plans were drawn before the AN standards came into being (theywere developed around 1940), and include such oddities as # 7 wood screws toattach the horizontal stabilizer to the upper longerons. Try finding a # 7screw at Home Depot.Aircraft hardware should be purchased for ANY critical component on aPietenpol (or any other airplane), and the old standard is AN hardware. NASor MS standard parts are the newer designations, but in many cases are justrenumbered AN partsRon Alexander wrote a good article on this in Sport Aviation a couple ofyears ago:http://exp-aircraft.com/library/alexand ... are.htmlSo you should use AN3 bolts where the plans call for 3/16", and use # 10drills (or better yet, reamers) for the holes.Jack PhillipsNX899JP "Icarus Plummet"Raleigh, NC-----Original Message-----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fittings
Original Posted By: "Jack"
I would like to add that the AN# refers to the diameter in 16ths of an inch -- AN3 means 3/16-inch diameter, AN4 means 4/16-inch (1/4) diameter etc all the way to at least AN7 which is the largest I have checked on and it is 7/16-inch in diameter. So with an AN3 bolt isn't it logical to use a 3/16-inch dia drill bit? I don't even know where I could buy a #10 drill bit.----- Original Message -----
I would like to add that the AN# refers to the diameter in 16ths of an inch -- AN3 means 3/16-inch diameter, AN4 means 4/16-inch (1/4) diameter etc all the way to at least AN7 which is the largest I have checked on and it is 7/16-inch in diameter. So with an AN3 bolt isn't it logical to use a 3/16-inch dia drill bit? I don't even know where I could buy a #10 drill bit.----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fittings
Original Posted By: Charles Campbell
I used 3/16" drill bits to drill all those sized holes. Seems to fly fine so far.Dan HelsperPuryear, TN. -----Original Message-----
I used 3/16" drill bits to drill all those sized holes. Seems to fly fine so far.Dan HelsperPuryear, TN. -----Original Message-----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fittings
Original Posted By: "Jack"
Thanks, Jack, I just ordered a set of the drill bits.----- Original Message -----
Thanks, Jack, I just ordered a set of the drill bits.----- Original Message -----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Fittings
Original Posted By: "Jack Phillips"
AN bolt tolerances are quite tight, if compared to hardware store bolts.In general, AN bolt sizes ARE multiples of 1/16". i.e. AN4 = 4 x 1/16", or 1/4".The exception is AN3, which is actually a #10 bolt, which has a diameter of0.190". Now, this is REALLY close to 3/16" (0.1875"), so it makes sense to usethat size.The actual MAXIMUM diameters of the shanks of AN bolts are typically .001" smallerthan the nominal size - so an AN4 bolt will have a maximum shank diameterof 0.250 - .001 = 0.249". Likewise, the MAXIMUM shank diameter of an AN3 boltwill be 0.190 - .001 = 0.189".The MINIMUM shank diam is only a few thousandths less than the maximum allowablevalue (.003 for AN3 thru AN6).When drilling holes in metals (aluminum or steel) for AN bolts to pass thru, someclearance is necessary. As was suggested, for an AN3 bolt, use a #10 drill(0.1935"). This will allow a clearance of .005" or .006". Using a 13/64" (0.2031")bit will result in a hole that is a bit sloppy, and could result in too muchplay in the connection. When drilling holes in wood, one can probably getaway with using a 3/16" diameter drill bit for an AN3 bolt, since wood is relativelysoft (especially compared to the bolts), so it will "give" when the boltis pushed in. Also, any wobble in the bit will effectively increase the holediameter, very slightly. Again, as was stated before, it would be good practiceto ream the holes after varnishing or painting.The following website has lots of handy charts for AN and MS bolts and other hardware.Just click on the type of hardware, and look for the little tool iconslabeled "tech info" for the relevant charts: http://www.gen-aircraft-hardware.com/Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
AN bolt tolerances are quite tight, if compared to hardware store bolts.In general, AN bolt sizes ARE multiples of 1/16". i.e. AN4 = 4 x 1/16", or 1/4".The exception is AN3, which is actually a #10 bolt, which has a diameter of0.190". Now, this is REALLY close to 3/16" (0.1875"), so it makes sense to usethat size.The actual MAXIMUM diameters of the shanks of AN bolts are typically .001" smallerthan the nominal size - so an AN4 bolt will have a maximum shank diameterof 0.250 - .001 = 0.249". Likewise, the MAXIMUM shank diameter of an AN3 boltwill be 0.190 - .001 = 0.189".The MINIMUM shank diam is only a few thousandths less than the maximum allowablevalue (.003 for AN3 thru AN6).When drilling holes in metals (aluminum or steel) for AN bolts to pass thru, someclearance is necessary. As was suggested, for an AN3 bolt, use a #10 drill(0.1935"). This will allow a clearance of .005" or .006". Using a 13/64" (0.2031")bit will result in a hole that is a bit sloppy, and could result in too muchplay in the connection. When drilling holes in wood, one can probably getaway with using a 3/16" diameter drill bit for an AN3 bolt, since wood is relativelysoft (especially compared to the bolts), so it will "give" when the boltis pushed in. Also, any wobble in the bit will effectively increase the holediameter, very slightly. Again, as was stated before, it would be good practiceto ream the holes after varnishing or painting.The following website has lots of handy charts for AN and MS bolts and other hardware.Just click on the type of hardware, and look for the little tool iconslabeled "tech info" for the relevant charts: http://www.gen-aircraft-hardware.com/Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Fittings
Original Posted By: "coxwelljon"
Congratulations to Kevin and to Ken. What a great thing to be able to share yourexperiences and passion for aviation. The Pacer is also a great little airplaneto fly.--------Jon Coxwell GN-1 BuilderRecycle and preserve the planetRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fittings
Congratulations to Kevin and to Ken. What a great thing to be able to share yourexperiences and passion for aviation. The Pacer is also a great little airplaneto fly.--------Jon Coxwell GN-1 BuilderRecycle and preserve the planetRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fittings
Pietenpol-List: Re: Fittings
Original Posted By: "coxwelljon"
I disagree with reaming the holes in wood after varnish. I read somewhere in eitherin my gn1 plans or in some EAA publications that one should actually swabthe holes with varnish and even insert the bolts in the wet varnish to sealthe hole against moisture. Drilling through the wood members exposes the endgrain which will take up moisture if any gets in along the bolt. My project hasbeen around a long time before I owned it and I have found some beginning ofdeterioration where the finish was damaged and some moisture got in. It appearsall of my bolts were set in wet varnish yet I have found some minor corrosionon the surface of the shanks of some bolts due to moisture getting in. My2 cents.--------Jon Coxwell GN-1 BuilderRecycle and preserve the planetRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fittings
I disagree with reaming the holes in wood after varnish. I read somewhere in eitherin my gn1 plans or in some EAA publications that one should actually swabthe holes with varnish and even insert the bolts in the wet varnish to sealthe hole against moisture. Drilling through the wood members exposes the endgrain which will take up moisture if any gets in along the bolt. My project hasbeen around a long time before I owned it and I have found some beginning ofdeterioration where the finish was damaged and some moisture got in. It appearsall of my bolts were set in wet varnish yet I have found some minor corrosionon the surface of the shanks of some bolts due to moisture getting in. My2 cents.--------Jon Coxwell GN-1 BuilderRecycle and preserve the planetRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fittings
Original Posted By: Jim Markle
I disagree with reaming the holes in wood after varnish. I read somewhere in eitherin my gn1 plans or in some EAA publications that one should actually swabthe holes with varnish and even insert the bolts in the wet varnish to sealthe hole against moisture. Drilling through the wood members exposes the endgrain which will take up moisture if any gets in along the bolt. My project hasbeen around a long time before I owned it and I have found some beginning ofdeterioration where the finish was damaged and some moisture got in. It appearsall of my bolts were set in wet varnish yet I have found some minor corrosionon the surface of the shanks of some bolts due to moisture getting in. My2 cents.--------Jon Coxwell GN-1 BuilderRecycle and preserve the planetRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 19:09:31 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
I disagree with reaming the holes in wood after varnish. I read somewhere in eitherin my gn1 plans or in some EAA publications that one should actually swabthe holes with varnish and even insert the bolts in the wet varnish to sealthe hole against moisture. Drilling through the wood members exposes the endgrain which will take up moisture if any gets in along the bolt. My project hasbeen around a long time before I owned it and I have found some beginning ofdeterioration where the finish was damaged and some moisture got in. It appearsall of my bolts were set in wet varnish yet I have found some minor corrosionon the surface of the shanks of some bolts due to moisture getting in. My2 cents.--------Jon Coxwell GN-1 BuilderRecycle and preserve the planetRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 19:09:31 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
RE: Pietenpol-List: Fittings
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
Jack=2CAll of mine are drilled at 13/64=85.not flight tested!Gary
Jack=2CAll of mine are drilled at 13/64=85.not flight tested!Gary