Original Posted By: "Mark Roberts"
Look back about half way through this thread and you will find the attachment withthe drawings.--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brakes: Comprehensive Reference list and discussion
Pietenpol-List: Brakes: Comprehensive Reference list and discussion
Original Posted By: jorge lizarraga
May I be as bold (have I been here long enough yet to assume this task?) as tosuggest a thread to consolidate the discussion of brakes on a piet.I am compiling an order for steel, which has prompted my investigation of brakes,and the various kinds, types, styles (heel, hand operated, etc) so I can orderthe necessary stuff to make the pedals. However, I am unsure of a good designto be "general" enough for converting to my plane. I see a few pictures onWestcoastPiet.com (may Chris tracy be blessed) and yet it is somewhat left tothe imagination as to what the builder did or used for the setup. I searched the archives, and found 62 listings for 'hydraulic' (Better than mechanical,or just another system... worth the trouble? Hold about the same?), andthought if we compile a list of the various brake configurations in a 'sticky'of sorts, which can be a running list of the various configurations out there,it might be helpful for tose following in our footsteps. In fact, it appearsthat many have tread this subject before with the question "WhatdoIdo forbrakes... I fly off pavement"...? Many folks report the brakes we are using don't hold for run up, and personallyI don't mind creeping a bit while running the engine to speed, as long as theguy in front of me doesn't mind my prop. But, if there was a list that couldhelp the investigation, we could point guys like me to one thread with the detailsof the various solutions the collective brainpower has amassed.So, if anyone is interested in this idea, perhaps we can use this thread to compilebest practices, parts used, suppliers, or any other info that could helpbuilders with this, as most if not all of today's builders will need brakes, whileBernard mighta coulda skipped them. If your not interested, ignore this threadand don't flame me!
For starters, how about these questions:What style wheels did you use? Spokes or small inflatable?Size of rotorsStyle (mechanical or Hydraulic)Caliper style (round clamp style or disc/Drum)How you'd rate the performance of them once usedType of actuator used: Handle, pedal, use your teeth to pull a cord...Supplier used and any part numbers suggested, etc. etc.Many thanks in advance for those willing to participate. It might save on futurequestions on the list, or at least point folks in the right direction.MarkRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 22:05:42 -0700 (PDT)
May I be as bold (have I been here long enough yet to assume this task?) as tosuggest a thread to consolidate the discussion of brakes on a piet.I am compiling an order for steel, which has prompted my investigation of brakes,and the various kinds, types, styles (heel, hand operated, etc) so I can orderthe necessary stuff to make the pedals. However, I am unsure of a good designto be "general" enough for converting to my plane. I see a few pictures onWestcoastPiet.com (may Chris tracy be blessed) and yet it is somewhat left tothe imagination as to what the builder did or used for the setup. I searched the archives, and found 62 listings for 'hydraulic' (Better than mechanical,or just another system... worth the trouble? Hold about the same?), andthought if we compile a list of the various brake configurations in a 'sticky'of sorts, which can be a running list of the various configurations out there,it might be helpful for tose following in our footsteps. In fact, it appearsthat many have tread this subject before with the question "WhatdoIdo forbrakes... I fly off pavement"...? Many folks report the brakes we are using don't hold for run up, and personallyI don't mind creeping a bit while running the engine to speed, as long as theguy in front of me doesn't mind my prop. But, if there was a list that couldhelp the investigation, we could point guys like me to one thread with the detailsof the various solutions the collective brainpower has amassed.So, if anyone is interested in this idea, perhaps we can use this thread to compilebest practices, parts used, suppliers, or any other info that could helpbuilders with this, as most if not all of today's builders will need brakes, whileBernard mighta coulda skipped them. If your not interested, ignore this threadand don't flame me!
For starters, how about these questions:What style wheels did you use? Spokes or small inflatable?Size of rotorsStyle (mechanical or Hydraulic)Caliper style (round clamp style or disc/Drum)How you'd rate the performance of them once usedType of actuator used: Handle, pedal, use your teeth to pull a cord...Supplier used and any part numbers suggested, etc. etc.Many thanks in advance for those willing to participate. It might save on futurequestions on the list, or at least point folks in the right direction.MarkRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 22:05:42 -0700 (PDT)Pietenpol-List: Re: Brakes: Comprehensive Reference list and discussion
Original Posted By: Michael Groah
Thanks Mike: I'd like to drive down and get pics of that set up. I just placedan ACS steel order and plan to begin this weekend making little metal sparks inthe barn! But, since I am ripping off your instrument panel, perhaps I can ripoff your brake design too :)Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 12:31:48 -0700 (PDT)
Thanks Mike: I'd like to drive down and get pics of that set up. I just placedan ACS steel order and plan to begin this weekend making little metal sparks inthe barn! But, since I am ripping off your instrument panel, perhaps I can ripoff your brake design too :)Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 12:31:48 -0700 (PDT)
Pietenpol-List: Re: Brakes: Comprehensive Reference list and discussion
Original Posted By: "Mark Roberts"
I spent the week in Paul's Aeroplane Factory at Oshkosh. We worked on the damagedcontrol surfaces of EAA's B-17. Second time we've done that one. I alwayspurchase some materials right after Airventure from Jim and Dondi Miller becausethey offer 10 % discount or free shipping on all of their materials if youorder with-in 30 days. They are Poly-Fiber dealers in OHIO. There numberis 877-877-3334. They also have an itemized materials list for the PietenpolAirCamper. This is not an advertisement for Poly-Fiber, I'm just thought I wouldhelp you save some money...DanRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brakes: Comprehensive Reference list and discussion
I spent the week in Paul's Aeroplane Factory at Oshkosh. We worked on the damagedcontrol surfaces of EAA's B-17. Second time we've done that one. I alwayspurchase some materials right after Airventure from Jim and Dondi Miller becausethey offer 10 % discount or free shipping on all of their materials if youorder with-in 30 days. They are Poly-Fiber dealers in OHIO. There numberis 877-877-3334. They also have an itemized materials list for the PietenpolAirCamper. This is not an advertisement for Poly-Fiber, I'm just thought I wouldhelp you save some money...DanRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brakes: Comprehensive Reference list and discussion
Original Posted By: "C N Campbell"
Wow! Good Memory!Hope to see you on a future trip.MarkRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Wow! Good Memory!Hope to see you on a future trip.MarkRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Brakes: Comprehensive Reference list and discussion
Original Posted By: "Mark Roberts"
Mark:You've probably heard all of this before but I'll repeat it again=2C for NX41CC (aka=2C "Scout")-We have the Cub-style gear with 6.00x6 tires and wheels and ex-Cessna/Cleveland hydraulic brakes. Actuation in the cockpit is exactly per the building tips provided by Bill Rewey=2C which uses standard masters (Matco or similar) with toe actuation and differential braking. It's very simple. I used to hate hydraulic brakes because of the mess and fuss=2C but after getting them lined out=2C there is no mess=2C no fuss. I can hold Scout at a full-throttle runup indefinitely... on grass or asphalt. I can turn the airplane on a dime=2C taxi it in and out of parked airplanes on the ramp and up to the yellow marks at the gas pumps with military precision=2C work it in a crosswind landing=2C turn off where I want to turn off in a gust or a breeze=2C and in general I REALLY like having effective brakes with very little muss=2C fuss=2C and bother. Not sure I would be happy with mechanical brakes=2C but then again I've never flown with them.When I riveted new pads (Rapco) on the brakes some time ago=2C I read up on the break-in procedure and was a bit put off by all the hoopla. Turned out to be a no-brainer because no matter how briskly I taxied down the runway before dragging and holding the brakes to heat them up for break-in=2C no sooner would I jump out and touch the brake parts expecting to get burned=2C than I was surprised that they weren't all that hot. These brakes came off a Cessna 172 Skyhawk so they are ample for the task on an airplane that is about half the gross weight of a 172=2C but the point is that I love my hydraulic brakes. I can't imagine not having the ability to "hold short" when the need arises=2C hold for runup=2C and help steer my airplane with brakes when gusty x-winds call for it=2C although all of that is much easier in grass than on pavement. And did I mention that I absolutely LOVE flying Scout off the grass??!! In the grass I don't use the brakes hardly at all=2C except for runup (when the sod is dry).Put me in the "HAVE BRAKES=2C CAN HOLD SHORT" column and let's see what the others bring on. And I routed my (plastic) hydraulic lines behind the gear legs and out of the way of tall grass=2C weeds=2C and other 'gotchas' just waiting to snag a hydraulic line on rollout=2C and I recommend that others do the same.Oscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"Flying Squirrel N2069Z "Rocket"Medford=2C ORwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brakes: Comprehensive Reference list and discussion
Mark:You've probably heard all of this before but I'll repeat it again=2C for NX41CC (aka=2C "Scout")-We have the Cub-style gear with 6.00x6 tires and wheels and ex-Cessna/Cleveland hydraulic brakes. Actuation in the cockpit is exactly per the building tips provided by Bill Rewey=2C which uses standard masters (Matco or similar) with toe actuation and differential braking. It's very simple. I used to hate hydraulic brakes because of the mess and fuss=2C but after getting them lined out=2C there is no mess=2C no fuss. I can hold Scout at a full-throttle runup indefinitely... on grass or asphalt. I can turn the airplane on a dime=2C taxi it in and out of parked airplanes on the ramp and up to the yellow marks at the gas pumps with military precision=2C work it in a crosswind landing=2C turn off where I want to turn off in a gust or a breeze=2C and in general I REALLY like having effective brakes with very little muss=2C fuss=2C and bother. Not sure I would be happy with mechanical brakes=2C but then again I've never flown with them.When I riveted new pads (Rapco) on the brakes some time ago=2C I read up on the break-in procedure and was a bit put off by all the hoopla. Turned out to be a no-brainer because no matter how briskly I taxied down the runway before dragging and holding the brakes to heat them up for break-in=2C no sooner would I jump out and touch the brake parts expecting to get burned=2C than I was surprised that they weren't all that hot. These brakes came off a Cessna 172 Skyhawk so they are ample for the task on an airplane that is about half the gross weight of a 172=2C but the point is that I love my hydraulic brakes. I can't imagine not having the ability to "hold short" when the need arises=2C hold for runup=2C and help steer my airplane with brakes when gusty x-winds call for it=2C although all of that is much easier in grass than on pavement. And did I mention that I absolutely LOVE flying Scout off the grass??!! In the grass I don't use the brakes hardly at all=2C except for runup (when the sod is dry).Put me in the "HAVE BRAKES=2C CAN HOLD SHORT" column and let's see what the others bring on. And I routed my (plastic) hydraulic lines behind the gear legs and out of the way of tall grass=2C weeds=2C and other 'gotchas' just waiting to snag a hydraulic line on rollout=2C and I recommend that others do the same.Oscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"Flying Squirrel N2069Z "Rocket"Medford=2C ORwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brakes: Comprehensive Reference list and discussion
Original Posted By: "Jack"
Thanks Oscar. This is just the point of this thread: to get the pros and cons outthere in one common location, and you sure make a good case for hydraulics.Personally, the reasons you mention for good holding power is exactly why I wantedto know what people were doing. Jody, my wife, really likes the look ofthe larger spoked wheels, and I know I will need better than average holding powerwith those larger wheels.So, I felt Hydraulics were pretty much a necessity, but that's ME thinking, andI haven't been there, done that yet, so thus the question.I hadn't thought of looking for a used set of Cessna 172 brakes. I know a mechanichere in town that might know a place to get some used parts. He's right acrossthe parking lot from Fresno AirParts that I see mentioned on this forum occasionally.I went there a couple of months ago to see what they had, and theyare mostly engine parts. The FBO I the same parking lot is a friend of mineso I dropped in for a visit to both places.I definitely want holding power if I can get it for run up. Thanks for the advice.MarkRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Thanks Oscar. This is just the point of this thread: to get the pros and cons outthere in one common location, and you sure make a good case for hydraulics.Personally, the reasons you mention for good holding power is exactly why I wantedto know what people were doing. Jody, my wife, really likes the look ofthe larger spoked wheels, and I know I will need better than average holding powerwith those larger wheels.So, I felt Hydraulics were pretty much a necessity, but that's ME thinking, andI haven't been there, done that yet, so thus the question.I hadn't thought of looking for a used set of Cessna 172 brakes. I know a mechanichere in town that might know a place to get some used parts. He's right acrossthe parking lot from Fresno AirParts that I see mentioned on this forum occasionally.I went there a couple of months ago to see what they had, and theyare mostly engine parts. The FBO I the same parking lot is a friend of mineso I dropped in for a visit to both places.I definitely want holding power if I can get it for run up. Thanks for the advice.MarkRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Control sticks in position...
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Jake I always enjoy reviewing your work! When fist posted I didn't noticethe tape holding the tubing in place. Is that high temp tape? If so, doesit work well to secure the tube while welding? Great idea.Jack TextorDSMNX1929T-----Original Message-----
Jake I always enjoy reviewing your work! When fist posted I didn't noticethe tape holding the tubing in place. Is that high temp tape? If so, doesit work well to secure the tube while welding? Great idea.Jack TextorDSMNX1929T-----Original Message-----
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brakes: Comprehensive Reference list and discussion
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Mark, I also have Cleveland brakes on my 21" wire wheels, My brakes areheel actuated and work well. They will hold it for a runup, but won't holdit at full throttle because it takes more torque to hold those big wheelsthan the brakes can apply. Airplanes quit using big wheels about the timethey started using brakes.I made heel brakes because I learned to fly in a J-3 Cub and it just seemsmore natural to dig in your heels to stop than to point your toes forwardlike pushing on an accelerator.I used matco master cylinders and other than being a bit troublesome tobleed due to the design of the installation, they work well.Jack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia-----Original Message-----
Mark, I also have Cleveland brakes on my 21" wire wheels, My brakes areheel actuated and work well. They will hold it for a runup, but won't holdit at full throttle because it takes more torque to hold those big wheelsthan the brakes can apply. Airplanes quit using big wheels about the timethey started using brakes.I made heel brakes because I learned to fly in a J-3 Cub and it just seemsmore natural to dig in your heels to stop than to point your toes forwardlike pushing on an accelerator.I used matco master cylinders and other than being a bit troublesome tobleed due to the design of the installation, they work well.Jack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Brakes: Comprehensive Reference list and discussion
Original Posted By: "Barry Davis"
I'm using large wire wheels and built up drum brakes around some EZ-GO golfcart brakes. They are activated by pedals levers which are made of flatstock and lay just outside the ply cockpit sides, under the fabric. Thepedal portion goes through a slot in the ply and protrudes into the cockpitabout two inches, just enough for my toe to find. The bottom portion of thelever protrudes from under the covering just below the fuse bottom about 1"where it attaches to the cable that routes down the gear to the brake.Small turnbuckles here allow infinite adjustment (a good thing!)So far I've been a bit surprised how well they hold those large wheels, muchmore than I anticipated. I can hold up to about 1500rpm or so.Douwe________________________________________________________________________________
I'm using large wire wheels and built up drum brakes around some EZ-GO golfcart brakes. They are activated by pedals levers which are made of flatstock and lay just outside the ply cockpit sides, under the fabric. Thepedal portion goes through a slot in the ply and protrudes into the cockpitabout two inches, just enough for my toe to find. The bottom portion of thelever protrudes from under the covering just below the fuse bottom about 1"where it attaches to the cable that routes down the gear to the brake.Small turnbuckles here allow infinite adjustment (a good thing!)So far I've been a bit surprised how well they hold those large wheels, muchmore than I anticipated. I can hold up to about 1500rpm or so.Douwe________________________________________________________________________________
RE: Pietenpol-List: A65 pushrod housing connectors
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
What is your "right" tool?Barry -----Original Message-----
What is your "right" tool?Barry -----Original Message-----