Original Posted By: "Mark Roberts"
Ya, kinda figured that might be the case. First, it isn't THE string method, butmerely A string method. Generally, THE string method involves stretching a string along the spar of thewing to get a straight reference. Doing that on the top will get the correct total dihedral, but doesn't necessarilymake sure it's even on both sides. Doing it on the bottom, which requiresstanding the string off the spar at the ends, and raising the panel until thestring touches at the cabane strut, will keep it even on both sides.The method I TRY to describe really just involves making simple datum plane belowthe plane, close to the ground. Use a string where you need references, the centerline of the plane, and both spars.You could put a fourth under the horiz stab. It's like a line drawingof the plane you might say. Then you just measure down to the datum plane youjust established. Measuring from the plane, straight down is easy with a simpleplumb bob. Just like laying the grid pattern for a tile floor, getting the initial two linesactually perpendicular isn't a simple matter of using a framing square if youwant it accurate. Using a 3,4,5 triangle (or multiple like 6,8,10) works reallywell and is easy. You then make sure the fuse is accurately aligned to the centerline string in pitch,roll and yaw you might say. It's kind of an iterative process. Align oneaxis, check another, recheck the first, check the third, recheck the firsttwo... etc. Once that is done, it all starts to make sense. Using a laser level makes it all A LOT easier, but using a bubble level reallygives lots of chances for error that can be eliminated by forgetting level altogether,and making sure you have an accurate reference.Using a water level is actually pretty cool and works GREAT for dihedral and such,but you still need to use "reference" sort of measurements for other aspectsof rigging, like getting the wing perpendicular to the centerline of the planeand such.I doubt many will go to such extreme, but an understanding of how it works, willgive a lot more confidence in other methods used as well.More mud?Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010)
Pietenpol-List: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010)
Re: Pietenpol-List: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010)
Original Posted By: Gene Rambo
I for one appreciate the method you described, even if it took a bit to re-readand visualize the methodology. I have a ways to go before I can try it, but thanksto Matt, we have good archives!MarkRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010)
I for one appreciate the method you described, even if it took a bit to re-readand visualize the methodology. I have a ways to go before I can try it, but thanksto Matt, we have good archives!MarkRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010)
Pietenpol-List: Re: Slow speed rush to 1st flight
Original Posted By: "aerocarjake"
Just about all of the airplanes up until the 30s used 1025 steel. Everything wasoverbuilt then as well. The Piet plans assume 1025 as well. 1025 is not quiteas strong, but is also not as "brittle" and is easier to work and weld. I don'tknow what 1010 is, I could look it up, but I'm sure someone on here couldchime in on that. I would not be afraid of 1025 or something similar. On Aug 20, 2012, at 9:51 PM, "Mark Roberts" wrote:> > I dropped of a sheet of 4130 x .032 to a friend of mine who owns a steel fabricationshop, and he asked if I could use another kind of steel than 4130. Heasked because he said he had plentiful amounts of 1010 sheet steel in varyingquantities, and he said if I wanted to compensate for the strength differences,he thought I could cut the rest out of stock he has on hand if I wanted.> > As metal is my weakness here (in experience level), I am wondering what you folksthink about this, outside of my knee-jerk reaction to say "No" just becauseit's not sold at ACS or Wicks... > > My bird will have extra wing area, and yet weight is still important, but whatother points might I need to consider if I looked at using another steel asidefrom 4130? Didn't the 1930's Piets use 1025 or something? > > Thanks for your perspectives. I searched the archives before posting to see ifthis had been asked and didn't see anything, but I might have missed it.> > Mark> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 435#381435> > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Slow speed rush to 1st flight
Just about all of the airplanes up until the 30s used 1025 steel. Everything wasoverbuilt then as well. The Piet plans assume 1025 as well. 1025 is not quiteas strong, but is also not as "brittle" and is easier to work and weld. I don'tknow what 1010 is, I could look it up, but I'm sure someone on here couldchime in on that. I would not be afraid of 1025 or something similar. On Aug 20, 2012, at 9:51 PM, "Mark Roberts" wrote:> > I dropped of a sheet of 4130 x .032 to a friend of mine who owns a steel fabricationshop, and he asked if I could use another kind of steel than 4130. Heasked because he said he had plentiful amounts of 1010 sheet steel in varyingquantities, and he said if I wanted to compensate for the strength differences,he thought I could cut the rest out of stock he has on hand if I wanted.> > As metal is my weakness here (in experience level), I am wondering what you folksthink about this, outside of my knee-jerk reaction to say "No" just becauseit's not sold at ACS or Wicks... > > My bird will have extra wing area, and yet weight is still important, but whatother points might I need to consider if I looked at using another steel asidefrom 4130? Didn't the 1930's Piets use 1025 or something? > > Thanks for your perspectives. I searched the archives before posting to see ifthis had been asked and didn't see anything, but I might have missed it.> > Mark> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 435#381435> > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Slow speed rush to 1st flight
Original Posted By: "Jack Phillips"
Nice to see the FORD power..... (ok, it's just the pickup truck - ha!)...... Theolive Piet looks fantastic..!--------Jake Schultz - curator,Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Nice to see the FORD power..... (ok, it's just the pickup truck - ha!)...... Theolive Piet looks fantastic..!--------Jake Schultz - curator,Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
RE: Pietenpol-List: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010)
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
In steel, the AISI number is used to designate the alloying elements. Thefirst two digits indicate the principal elements in addition toiron.Anything that starts with 10 is plain carbon steel, with no otheralloying elements. 41 indicates chromium and molybdenum. The last twodigits represent the percent of carbon in the steel. 1010 is plain carbonsteel with 0.10% carbon. 1025 has 0.25% carbon. The more carbon, thehigher the strength but the lower the formability and ductility. Thus,files and knives are made of 1095 steel - very hard and strong (and holds agood edge as a knife) but very brittle. Here is part of a table showing theproperties:Typical Mechanical Properties of Common Carbon, Alloy, and Stainless SteelsBrinellYield Tensile ElongationhardnessAISI no. Form strength, psi strength, psi in 2 in, % (BH)1010 HR 30,000 47,000 30 911015 HR 45,000 61,000 39 1261018 HR 40,000 69,000 38 1431018 CD 70,000 82,000 20 1631020 HR 40,000 69,000 38 1431025 HR 45,000 67,000 36 1434130 N 63,000 97,000 25 197What these numbers mean is the following:Form is simply the way the steel is made and sold. HR means Hot Rolled. CDmeans Cold Drawn (work hardened). N means Normalized (heated red hot thenslowly cooled).Yield strength is the stress level at which permanent deformation (permanentbending or stretching) will occur. Below that level if the stress isremoved the part will return to its original shape This is the stress youwant to stay below in order to not "bend" your airplaneTensile strength is the stress level at which the steel will break (alsocalled ultimate strength). Way beyond bending, you've now broken it.Elongation is how much the steel will stretch when stressed (using a 2"length, how much longer will it get before breaking)Brinell Hardness is simply a measure of how hard the steel is.Looking at the table, 1010 has a yield strength of only 30,000 psi (lessthan 2024-T3 aluminum). 1025 has a yield strength of 45,000 psi (2024-T3 is42,000), and 1018 has a yield strength of 70,000. 4130 has a yield strengthof 63,000 but an ultimate strength of 97,000 ( and it is heat treatable tomuch higher levels - yield strength of 220,000 psi is possible with heattreating followed by a water quench)I think I'd stay away from 1010. 4130 gives a very good range of propertiesand is readily weldable (and available at Aircraft Spruce or Wicks). 1025or 1018 are reasonable substitutes.Clear as mud?Jack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia-----Original Message-----
In steel, the AISI number is used to designate the alloying elements. Thefirst two digits indicate the principal elements in addition toiron.Anything that starts with 10 is plain carbon steel, with no otheralloying elements. 41 indicates chromium and molybdenum. The last twodigits represent the percent of carbon in the steel. 1010 is plain carbonsteel with 0.10% carbon. 1025 has 0.25% carbon. The more carbon, thehigher the strength but the lower the formability and ductility. Thus,files and knives are made of 1095 steel - very hard and strong (and holds agood edge as a knife) but very brittle. Here is part of a table showing theproperties:Typical Mechanical Properties of Common Carbon, Alloy, and Stainless SteelsBrinellYield Tensile ElongationhardnessAISI no. Form strength, psi strength, psi in 2 in, % (BH)1010 HR 30,000 47,000 30 911015 HR 45,000 61,000 39 1261018 HR 40,000 69,000 38 1431018 CD 70,000 82,000 20 1631020 HR 40,000 69,000 38 1431025 HR 45,000 67,000 36 1434130 N 63,000 97,000 25 197What these numbers mean is the following:Form is simply the way the steel is made and sold. HR means Hot Rolled. CDmeans Cold Drawn (work hardened). N means Normalized (heated red hot thenslowly cooled).Yield strength is the stress level at which permanent deformation (permanentbending or stretching) will occur. Below that level if the stress isremoved the part will return to its original shape This is the stress youwant to stay below in order to not "bend" your airplaneTensile strength is the stress level at which the steel will break (alsocalled ultimate strength). Way beyond bending, you've now broken it.Elongation is how much the steel will stretch when stressed (using a 2"length, how much longer will it get before breaking)Brinell Hardness is simply a measure of how hard the steel is.Looking at the table, 1010 has a yield strength of only 30,000 psi (lessthan 2024-T3 aluminum). 1025 has a yield strength of 45,000 psi (2024-T3 is42,000), and 1018 has a yield strength of 70,000. 4130 has a yield strengthof 63,000 but an ultimate strength of 97,000 ( and it is heat treatable tomuch higher levels - yield strength of 220,000 psi is possible with heattreating followed by a water quench)I think I'd stay away from 1010. 4130 gives a very good range of propertiesand is readily weldable (and available at Aircraft Spruce or Wicks). 1025or 1018 are reasonable substitutes.Clear as mud?Jack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia-----Original Message-----
RE: Pietenpol-List: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010)
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010)In steel, the AISI number is used to designate the alloying elements. Thefirst two digits indicate the principal elements in addition toiron.Anything that starts with 10 is plain carbon steel, with no otheralloying elements. 41 indicates chromium and molybdenum. The last twodigits represent the percent of carbon in the steel. 1010 is plain carbonsteel with 0.10% carbon. 1025 has 0.25% carbon. The more carbon, thehigher the strength but the lower the formability and ductility. Thus,files and knives are made of 1095 steel - very hard and strong (and holds agood edge as a knife) but very brittle. Here is part of a table showing theproperties:Typical Mechanical Properties of Common Carbon, Alloy, and Stainless SteelsBrinell Yield Tensile ElongationhardnessAISI no. Form strength, psi strength, psi in 2 in, % (BH)1010 HR 30,000 47,000 30 911015 HR 45,000 61,000 39 1261018 HR 40,000 69,000 38 1431018 CD 70,000 82,000 20 1631020 HR 40,000 69,000 38 1431025 HR 45,000 67,000 36 1434130 N 63,000 97,000 25 197What these numbers mean is the following:Form is simply the way the steel is made and sold. HR means Hot Rolled. CDmeans Cold Drawn (work hardened). N means Normalized (heated red hot thenslowly cooled).Yield strength is the stress level at which permanent deformation (permanentbending or stretching) will occur. Below that level if the stress isremoved the part will return to its original shape This is the stress youwant to stay below in order to not "bend" your airplaneTensile strength is the stress level at which the steel will break (alsocalled ultimate strength). Way beyond bending, you've now broken it.Elongation is how much the steel will stretch when stressed (using a 2"length, how much longer will it get before breaking)Brinell Hardness is simply a measure of how hard the steel is.Looking at the table, 1010 has a yield strength of only 30,000 psi (lessthan 2024-T3 aluminum). 1025 has a yield strength of 45,000 psi (2024-T3 is42,000), and 1018 has a yield strength of 70,000. 4130 has a yield strengthof 63,000 but an ultimate strength of 97,000 ( and it is heat treatable tomuch higher levels - yield strength of 220,000 psi is possible with heattreating followed by a water quench)I think I'd stay away from 1010. 4130 gives a very good range of propertiesand is readily weldable (and available at Aircraft Spruce or Wicks). 1025or 1018 are reasonable substitutes.Clear as mud?Jack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia-----Original Message-----
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010)In steel, the AISI number is used to designate the alloying elements. Thefirst two digits indicate the principal elements in addition toiron.Anything that starts with 10 is plain carbon steel, with no otheralloying elements. 41 indicates chromium and molybdenum. The last twodigits represent the percent of carbon in the steel. 1010 is plain carbonsteel with 0.10% carbon. 1025 has 0.25% carbon. The more carbon, thehigher the strength but the lower the formability and ductility. Thus,files and knives are made of 1095 steel - very hard and strong (and holds agood edge as a knife) but very brittle. Here is part of a table showing theproperties:Typical Mechanical Properties of Common Carbon, Alloy, and Stainless SteelsBrinell Yield Tensile ElongationhardnessAISI no. Form strength, psi strength, psi in 2 in, % (BH)1010 HR 30,000 47,000 30 911015 HR 45,000 61,000 39 1261018 HR 40,000 69,000 38 1431018 CD 70,000 82,000 20 1631020 HR 40,000 69,000 38 1431025 HR 45,000 67,000 36 1434130 N 63,000 97,000 25 197What these numbers mean is the following:Form is simply the way the steel is made and sold. HR means Hot Rolled. CDmeans Cold Drawn (work hardened). N means Normalized (heated red hot thenslowly cooled).Yield strength is the stress level at which permanent deformation (permanentbending or stretching) will occur. Below that level if the stress isremoved the part will return to its original shape This is the stress youwant to stay below in order to not "bend" your airplaneTensile strength is the stress level at which the steel will break (alsocalled ultimate strength). Way beyond bending, you've now broken it.Elongation is how much the steel will stretch when stressed (using a 2"length, how much longer will it get before breaking)Brinell Hardness is simply a measure of how hard the steel is.Looking at the table, 1010 has a yield strength of only 30,000 psi (lessthan 2024-T3 aluminum). 1025 has a yield strength of 45,000 psi (2024-T3 is42,000), and 1018 has a yield strength of 70,000. 4130 has a yield strengthof 63,000 but an ultimate strength of 97,000 ( and it is heat treatable tomuch higher levels - yield strength of 220,000 psi is possible with heattreating followed by a water quench)I think I'd stay away from 1010. 4130 gives a very good range of propertiesand is readily weldable (and available at Aircraft Spruce or Wicks). 1025or 1018 are reasonable substitutes.Clear as mud?Jack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010)
Original Posted By: "Mark Roberts"
JackMany thanks for a fine explanation! Brilliant.....The mud is clear.RegardsGerry________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010)
JackMany thanks for a fine explanation! Brilliant.....The mud is clear.RegardsGerry________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010)
Original Posted By: "Scott Knowlton "
Wow Jack! Thanks for taking the time to write that great explanation. Sometimes,you can't find specific info like that without asking a question that you can'tfind the answer to in books, and that sure helped me figure out what to do.I think I will just stay the course with 4130 and order as planned. He was askingme the question out of a desire to help me save money, and make it more convenientif I could use stuff he already had on hand.Again, thank you! Good reference material for the future as well...MarkRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Wow Jack! Thanks for taking the time to write that great explanation. Sometimes,you can't find specific info like that without asking a question that you can'tfind the answer to in books, and that sure helped me figure out what to do.I think I will just stay the course with 4130 and order as planned. He was askingme the question out of a desire to help me save money, and make it more convenientif I could use stuff he already had on hand.Again, thank you! Good reference material for the future as well...MarkRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Re: Pietenpol-List: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010)
Original Posted By: Jack Phillips
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010)Jack, Having completed my control system, wing attach brackets and cabane brackets from4130 it is emails like yours that allow me to take comfort in my choice ofmetals regardless of a small additional expense. The technical engineer typeson this list are what keep us simpler minded builders in check, in safety andcomfortable with our choices. Thanks for the great, informative response. Scott KnowltonRibs, Tailgroup, Centresection and fittings done in Burlington, ON -----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010)Jack, Having completed my control system, wing attach brackets and cabane brackets from4130 it is emails like yours that allow me to take comfort in my choice ofmetals regardless of a small additional expense. The technical engineer typeson this list are what keep us simpler minded builders in check, in safety andcomfortable with our choices. Thanks for the great, informative response. Scott KnowltonRibs, Tailgroup, Centresection and fittings done in Burlington, ON -----Original Message-----
Re: Pietenpol-List: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010)
Original Posted By: helspersew(at)aol.com
The image of having a pint or two with friends made on this list is what makesthis list so much fun to read. In a way, the list serves as the watering troughmany of us would frequent to sit and discuss the vital intricacies of the pietdesign, without the bad breath.Thanks Oscar for the "picture". I bet the bartender that night thought you'd alreadyhad a few before getting there when you brought in that aluminum rib...I mean, everyone knows, including the bartender, that a 1932's design used Sitkaspruce and milk protein glues, not high tech aluminum! [Shocked]Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010)
The image of having a pint or two with friends made on this list is what makesthis list so much fun to read. In a way, the list serves as the watering troughmany of us would frequent to sit and discuss the vital intricacies of the pietdesign, without the bad breath.Thanks Oscar for the "picture". I bet the bartender that night thought you'd alreadyhad a few before getting there when you brought in that aluminum rib...I mean, everyone knows, including the bartender, that a 1932's design used Sitkaspruce and milk protein glues, not high tech aluminum! [Shocked]Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 4130 vs 1025 steel (or 1010)