Original Posted By: "tools"
I'm sure there are several of you that fly, or have flown, with this carb. Iam wondering if it is characteristic for it to stumble if the throttle isadvanced too quickly.Gary BootheNX308MB________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Original Posted By: "Gary Boothe"
No accelerator pump. So, yes, it is.It goes lean. I mitigate it by advancing the throttle (on a go around or touchand go) with the carb heat still on (which richens the mixture), then after thepower is up, pulling it off.Mine started popping on one flight. Thought I was just getting lazy and advancingmuch too quickly. Turns out, one of my primer lines broke, allowing a cylinderto lean out... So, hesitation seems normal and is mentioned by most whofly that carb, but backfiring is NOT.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
No accelerator pump. So, yes, it is.It goes lean. I mitigate it by advancing the throttle (on a go around or touchand go) with the carb heat still on (which richens the mixture), then after thepower is up, pulling it off.Mine started popping on one flight. Thought I was just getting lazy and advancingmuch too quickly. Turns out, one of my primer lines broke, allowing a cylinderto lean out... So, hesitation seems normal and is mentioned by most whofly that carb, but backfiring is NOT.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Thanks, Tools!Gary BootheNX308MB-----Original Message-----
Thanks, Tools!Gary BootheNX308MB-----Original Message-----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Original Posted By: "Clif Dawson"
Gary...Yes it stumbles. Occasionally it even stops after a landing run. I blockeda runway two weeks ago!Tools method of using 'Carb Hot Air' is one I haven't tried so that is worth knowing.Mine is also reported as 'popping' when descending over Strip throttled back withCarb Hot Air on.Other than that, it's a real old A75!Gerry________________________________________________________________________________
Gary...Yes it stumbles. Occasionally it even stops after a landing run. I blockeda runway two weeks ago!Tools method of using 'Carb Hot Air' is one I haven't tried so that is worth knowing.Mine is also reported as 'popping' when descending over Strip throttled back withCarb Hot Air on.Other than that, it's a real old A75!Gerry________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Original Posted By: gboothe5(at)comcast.net
Uh, Jack, I think you'll find that to be 31 lb at12% moisture content. At least accordingto the US Forest Products Lab.The closest you're going to get to that isWestern Red Cedar with a correspondingreduction in strength.Clif Calculate it. Sitka Spruce has a density of 21.86 lbs/ft3. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Uh, Jack, I think you'll find that to be 31 lb at12% moisture content. At least accordingto the US Forest Products Lab.The closest you're going to get to that isWestern Red Cedar with a correspondingreduction in strength.Clif Calculate it. Sitka Spruce has a density of 21.86 lbs/ft3. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Re: Pietenpol-List: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Original Posted By: Ben Charvet
Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Original Posted By: "tools"
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Stromberg NA-S3A1Gary, I have no accelerator pump on my NA-S3A1 and it does not stumble unless it is coolerweather (55F or colder) and I haven'twarmed up the engine thoroughly. (of course your engine and induction systemare completely different than my A-65 setup)If I advance the throttle smoothly on takeoff or in flight after some slow flightthe engine never stumbles. (thankfully)Mike C.________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Stromberg NA-S3A1Gary, I have no accelerator pump on my NA-S3A1 and it does not stumble unless it is coolerweather (55F or colder) and I haven'twarmed up the engine thoroughly. (of course your engine and induction systemare completely different than my A-65 setup)If I advance the throttle smoothly on takeoff or in flight after some slow flightthe engine never stumbles. (thankfully)Mike C.________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Re: Pietenpol-List: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Original Posted By: gboothe5(at)comcast.net
Here's another tidbit I just learned. Apparently aircraft carbs run very richat full idle, to help with cooling (since the prop is so slow, not nearly as muchcooling there). If you open the throttle just a tad, it gets it off the idlecircuit, where it's more like a regular carb.Sure enough, when it's hot and I'm flying young eagles in a Glastar, on the rolloutthe engine gets VERY rough and is on the verge of quitting. I advance thethrottle just a bit and get it off idle circuit and that helps a ton. Also, when trying to hot start, I'll keep it off the idle circuit to avoid or lessenthe effects of flooding.Hand propping is a different matter. I'd NEVER try that while hand propping alone.I haven't flown the piet enough repetitively on a hot day like that to bea problem. I have found that it's easier to flood on hot days and I go throughthe standard a65 unflood routine, and it starts first flip afterwards. Because of the success there, I haven't tried hand propping with someone else inthe cockpit with the carb off the idle circuit. Now, how this affects cold starting and prime is... EVERY time I've had the enginecatch and run a few revolutions, I can't get it started easily after thatpoint. Well, it's just like pulling it through, and with the engine on the extrarich idle circuit, it floods. Now, every time it catches a few revs and quits,I just turn the mags off, open the throt and pull it backwards a dozen pulls,reset everything and viola, easy start 1st pull after that.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Here's another tidbit I just learned. Apparently aircraft carbs run very richat full idle, to help with cooling (since the prop is so slow, not nearly as muchcooling there). If you open the throttle just a tad, it gets it off the idlecircuit, where it's more like a regular carb.Sure enough, when it's hot and I'm flying young eagles in a Glastar, on the rolloutthe engine gets VERY rough and is on the verge of quitting. I advance thethrottle just a bit and get it off idle circuit and that helps a ton. Also, when trying to hot start, I'll keep it off the idle circuit to avoid or lessenthe effects of flooding.Hand propping is a different matter. I'd NEVER try that while hand propping alone.I haven't flown the piet enough repetitively on a hot day like that to bea problem. I have found that it's easier to flood on hot days and I go throughthe standard a65 unflood routine, and it starts first flip afterwards. Because of the success there, I haven't tried hand propping with someone else inthe cockpit with the carb off the idle circuit. Now, how this affects cold starting and prime is... EVERY time I've had the enginecatch and run a few revolutions, I can't get it started easily after thatpoint. Well, it's just like pulling it through, and with the engine on the extrarich idle circuit, it floods. Now, every time it catches a few revs and quits,I just turn the mags off, open the throt and pull it backwards a dozen pulls,reset everything and viola, easy start 1st pull after that.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Re: Pietenpol-List: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Original Posted By: Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Stromberg NA-S3A1The Stromberg carb is a good one. It shouldn't stumble if adjusted properly. Please read Harry Fenton's Advice on the Flybaby site. I just rebuilt an A-65 and the stromberg carb that is on it. and It doesn't stumble. DaveIn a message dated 9/6/2012 9:22:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, gboothe5(at)comcast.net writes:--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: gboothe5(at)comcast.netThanks, Mike! There was some talk on the Piper Super Cub list about slightly enrichening the mixture to help ease the problem. You may already be there.Gary------Original Message------
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Stromberg NA-S3A1The Stromberg carb is a good one. It shouldn't stumble if adjusted properly. Please read Harry Fenton's Advice on the Flybaby site. I just rebuilt an A-65 and the stromberg carb that is on it. and It doesn't stumble. DaveIn a message dated 9/6/2012 9:22:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, gboothe5(at)comcast.net writes:--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: gboothe5(at)comcast.netThanks, Mike! There was some talk on the Piper Super Cub list about slightly enrichening the mixture to help ease the problem. You may already be there.Gary------Original Message------
Original Posted By: SENTUCHOWS(at)aol.com
I agree that the Stromberg is a good Carb. and widely used but there are some 'stumblers' out there including mine.One of the FAA Notices I came across whilst investing this was Continental Engines M64-6.You might all know of it? I've attached it for information.I am going to try it towards winter time.As for the stumbling....going tinker about but open throttle carefully until I feel happy about it.Gerry________________________________________________________________________________
I agree that the Stromberg is a good Carb. and widely used but there are some 'stumblers' out there including mine.One of the FAA Notices I came across whilst investing this was Continental Engines M64-6.You might all know of it? I've attached it for information.I am going to try it towards winter time.As for the stumbling....going tinker about but open throttle carefully until I feel happy about it.Gerry________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Original Posted By: Gerry Holland
Dick bought my carb at Sun-n-fun and just sent it out for a complete rebuild. And in it's defense, it NEVER stumbled on me (except for the broke primer line)except while adding power to taxi IMMEDIATELY after startup.However, I was warned (by quite a few people) that just firewalling it with noregard wasn't a good idea, and knowing it has no accelator pump, it made sense.I started the carb heat routine while I was troubleshooting the backfiring(lean condition) caused by the broke primer line, and it helped quite a bit, whichlets me know it would help with a lean condition caused by quick accelerationand no accelerator pump.Also, it didn't make sense to waste time taking my hand off the throttle, movingto the carb heat (all while slowing down and wasting runway), then back to thethrottle to go around. So it's a routine I use ALL the time.While a good carb, it is old... I'm going to go read the article you mention.I do have a question for you and Mike. Can you get your carbs to hesitate? If it's adjusted properly, will it hesitate at all? Under any normal condition?I guess the whole point is this. If SOME hesitation under an extremely quick advanceof the throttle from a full idle is normal, then you can experience itknowing things are probably alright with your carb.As how these things go, I was warned of it and after I JUST became a little comfortablewith it, I did advance the throttle more quickly (I would advance thethrottle VERY slowly at first because I wasn't much used to a taildragger, ratherthan trying to overcome a difficulty with the carb) and found that hesitationso assumed it normal. As it turned out, it wasn't!A technique I use with jet engines is to never let the engine "go to sleep". Especiallywith pure jets (no fan) and older jets, the response time from a developedidle can be dangerously slow. If you jockey the engines just enough, you'llkeep them in a position where you have good response, without adding anysignificant thrust that would compromise the approach. Same applies to a piet.I notice many light civil pilots basically fly a no power final approach (whichguarantees making the field with an engine failure, not a bad idea). Now ifyou fly that approach at a close to touchdown speed, if you do get low and addpower with hesitation, you're in bad shape. If you fly that approach at a higherspeed, short of touchdown and glide into it, you have margin for error, enoughtime (speed) to get through a hesitation. I, on the other hand, with a huge lack of experience in light civil planes, andYEARS AND YEARS of "bad habits", fly a lower power on approach, which keeps myengine out of the region where it would hesitate with a quick advance anyway.As I mentioned, the whole point of the discussion (in my mind) is to help us understandwhat the limitations of our carbs are so that we can determine if somethingisn't right. It's quite possible it SHOULDN'T ever hesitate and my flyinghabits would mask that condition and I'd never know if my carb was adjustedright in that regime or not. Lastly, the old drip from these old carbs. I'm on the verge of buying a littleChief with an A65. The owner just had the carb totally overhauled (to the tuneof $600) because it would drip. I was told that was silly, because they alldrip...I'm of the opinion that no good carb should just drip. Something is wrong in thereif it does. May not really matter because it won't drip while running, butstill... Oh ya, one more thing. When I was buying n2rn it was being inspected. A cylinderhad to be pulled for some work. After we put it together and ran it, it hada little pop on acceleration. Dick wasn't happy and we thought maybe leakinga little air somewhere and we went about tightening all the hose clamps onthe intake system. Problem went away. None of them seemed loose. It does seemthat this engine is quite sensitive to any leaks in the intake system. Sodon't confuse that problem with a POSSIBLE propensity for hesitating due to alack of complexity.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Dick bought my carb at Sun-n-fun and just sent it out for a complete rebuild. And in it's defense, it NEVER stumbled on me (except for the broke primer line)except while adding power to taxi IMMEDIATELY after startup.However, I was warned (by quite a few people) that just firewalling it with noregard wasn't a good idea, and knowing it has no accelator pump, it made sense.I started the carb heat routine while I was troubleshooting the backfiring(lean condition) caused by the broke primer line, and it helped quite a bit, whichlets me know it would help with a lean condition caused by quick accelerationand no accelerator pump.Also, it didn't make sense to waste time taking my hand off the throttle, movingto the carb heat (all while slowing down and wasting runway), then back to thethrottle to go around. So it's a routine I use ALL the time.While a good carb, it is old... I'm going to go read the article you mention.I do have a question for you and Mike. Can you get your carbs to hesitate? If it's adjusted properly, will it hesitate at all? Under any normal condition?I guess the whole point is this. If SOME hesitation under an extremely quick advanceof the throttle from a full idle is normal, then you can experience itknowing things are probably alright with your carb.As how these things go, I was warned of it and after I JUST became a little comfortablewith it, I did advance the throttle more quickly (I would advance thethrottle VERY slowly at first because I wasn't much used to a taildragger, ratherthan trying to overcome a difficulty with the carb) and found that hesitationso assumed it normal. As it turned out, it wasn't!A technique I use with jet engines is to never let the engine "go to sleep". Especiallywith pure jets (no fan) and older jets, the response time from a developedidle can be dangerously slow. If you jockey the engines just enough, you'llkeep them in a position where you have good response, without adding anysignificant thrust that would compromise the approach. Same applies to a piet.I notice many light civil pilots basically fly a no power final approach (whichguarantees making the field with an engine failure, not a bad idea). Now ifyou fly that approach at a close to touchdown speed, if you do get low and addpower with hesitation, you're in bad shape. If you fly that approach at a higherspeed, short of touchdown and glide into it, you have margin for error, enoughtime (speed) to get through a hesitation. I, on the other hand, with a huge lack of experience in light civil planes, andYEARS AND YEARS of "bad habits", fly a lower power on approach, which keeps myengine out of the region where it would hesitate with a quick advance anyway.As I mentioned, the whole point of the discussion (in my mind) is to help us understandwhat the limitations of our carbs are so that we can determine if somethingisn't right. It's quite possible it SHOULDN'T ever hesitate and my flyinghabits would mask that condition and I'd never know if my carb was adjustedright in that regime or not. Lastly, the old drip from these old carbs. I'm on the verge of buying a littleChief with an A65. The owner just had the carb totally overhauled (to the tuneof $600) because it would drip. I was told that was silly, because they alldrip...I'm of the opinion that no good carb should just drip. Something is wrong in thereif it does. May not really matter because it won't drip while running, butstill... Oh ya, one more thing. When I was buying n2rn it was being inspected. A cylinderhad to be pulled for some work. After we put it together and ran it, it hada little pop on acceleration. Dick wasn't happy and we thought maybe leakinga little air somewhere and we went about tightening all the hose clamps onthe intake system. Problem went away. None of them seemed loose. It does seemthat this engine is quite sensitive to any leaks in the intake system. Sodon't confuse that problem with a POSSIBLE propensity for hesitating due to alack of complexity.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Original Posted By: "tools"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1Dick, One of the major problems with older Stromberg is the fit between the carb and the throttle shaft. As this area becomes warn, outside air leaks in around the shaft. You have a lean condition that cannot be adjusted out. . Lean on idle means hesitation and engine stoppage. Just my experience. DaveIn a message dated 9/6/2012 10:39:49 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, n0kkj(at)yahoo.com writes:--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "tools" Dick bought my carb at Sun-n-fun and just sent it out for a complete rebuild. And in it's defense, it NEVER stumbled on me (except for the broke primer line) except while adding power to taxi IMMEDIATELY after startup.However, I was warned (by quite a few people) that just firewalling it with no regard wasn't a good idea, and knowing it has no accelator pump, it made sense. I started the carb heat routine while I was troubleshooting the backfiring (lean condition) caused by the broke primer line, and it helped quite a bit, which lets me know it would help with a lean condition caused by quick acceleration and no accelerator pump.Also, it didn't make sense to waste time taking my hand off the throttle, moving to the carb heat (all while slowing down and wasting runway), then back to the throttle to go around. So it's a routine I use ALL the time.While a good carb, it is old... I'm going to go read the article you mention. I do have a question for you and Mike. Can you get your carbs to hesitate? If it's adjusted properly, will it hesitate at all? Under any normal condition?I guess the whole point is this. If SOME hesitation under an extremely quick advance of the throttle from a full idle is normal, then you can experience it knowing things are probably alright with your carb.As how these things go, I was warned of it and after I JUST became a little comfortable with it, I did advance the throttle more quickly (I would advance the throttle VERY slowly at first because I wasn't much used to a taildragger, rather than trying to overcome a difficulty with the carb) and found that hesitation so assumed it normal. As it turned out, it wasn't!A technique I use with jet engines is to never let the engine "go to sleep". Especially with pure jets (no fan) and older jets, the response timefrom a developed idle can be dangerously slow. If you jockey the engines just enough, you'll keep them in a position where you have good response, without adding any significant thrust that would compromise the approach. Sameapplies to a piet. I notice many light civil pilots basically fly a no power final approach (which guarantees making the field with an engine failure, not a bad idea). Now if you fly that approach at a close to touchdown speed, if you do get low and add power with hesitation, you're in bad shape. If you fly that approach at a higher speed, short of touchdown and glide into it, you have margin for error, enough time (speed) to get through a hesitation. I, on the other hand, with a huge lack of experience in light civil planes, and YEARS AND YEARS of "bad habits", fly a lower power on approach, whichkeeps my engine out of the region where it would hesitate with a quick advance anyway. As I mentioned, the whole point of the discussion (in my mind) is to help us understand what the limitations of our carbs are so that we can determine if something isn't right. It's quite possible it SHOULDN'T ever hesitateand my flying habits would mask that condition and I'd never know if my carb was adjusted right in that regime or not. Lastly, the old drip from these old carbs. I'm on the verge of buying a little Chief with an A65. The owner just had the carb totally overhauled (to the tune of $600) because it would drip. I was told that was silly, because they all drip...I'm of the opinion that no good carb should just drip. Something is wrong in there if it does. May not really matter because it won't drip while running, but still... Oh ya, one more thing. When I was buying n2rn it was being inspected. A cylinder had to be pulled for some work. After we put it together and ran it, it had a little pop on acceleration. Dick wasn't happy and we thought maybe leaking a little air somewhere and we went about tightening all the hose clamps on the intake system. Problem went away. None of them seemed loose. It does seem that this engine is quite sensitive to any leaks in the intake system. So don't confuse that problem with a POSSIBLE propensity for hesitating due to a lack of complexity.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1Dick, One of the major problems with older Stromberg is the fit between the carb and the throttle shaft. As this area becomes warn, outside air leaks in around the shaft. You have a lean condition that cannot be adjusted out. . Lean on idle means hesitation and engine stoppage. Just my experience. DaveIn a message dated 9/6/2012 10:39:49 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, n0kkj(at)yahoo.com writes:--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "tools" Dick bought my carb at Sun-n-fun and just sent it out for a complete rebuild. And in it's defense, it NEVER stumbled on me (except for the broke primer line) except while adding power to taxi IMMEDIATELY after startup.However, I was warned (by quite a few people) that just firewalling it with no regard wasn't a good idea, and knowing it has no accelator pump, it made sense. I started the carb heat routine while I was troubleshooting the backfiring (lean condition) caused by the broke primer line, and it helped quite a bit, which lets me know it would help with a lean condition caused by quick acceleration and no accelerator pump.Also, it didn't make sense to waste time taking my hand off the throttle, moving to the carb heat (all while slowing down and wasting runway), then back to the throttle to go around. So it's a routine I use ALL the time.While a good carb, it is old... I'm going to go read the article you mention. I do have a question for you and Mike. Can you get your carbs to hesitate? If it's adjusted properly, will it hesitate at all? Under any normal condition?I guess the whole point is this. If SOME hesitation under an extremely quick advance of the throttle from a full idle is normal, then you can experience it knowing things are probably alright with your carb.As how these things go, I was warned of it and after I JUST became a little comfortable with it, I did advance the throttle more quickly (I would advance the throttle VERY slowly at first because I wasn't much used to a taildragger, rather than trying to overcome a difficulty with the carb) and found that hesitation so assumed it normal. As it turned out, it wasn't!A technique I use with jet engines is to never let the engine "go to sleep". Especially with pure jets (no fan) and older jets, the response timefrom a developed idle can be dangerously slow. If you jockey the engines just enough, you'll keep them in a position where you have good response, without adding any significant thrust that would compromise the approach. Sameapplies to a piet. I notice many light civil pilots basically fly a no power final approach (which guarantees making the field with an engine failure, not a bad idea). Now if you fly that approach at a close to touchdown speed, if you do get low and add power with hesitation, you're in bad shape. If you fly that approach at a higher speed, short of touchdown and glide into it, you have margin for error, enough time (speed) to get through a hesitation. I, on the other hand, with a huge lack of experience in light civil planes, and YEARS AND YEARS of "bad habits", fly a lower power on approach, whichkeeps my engine out of the region where it would hesitate with a quick advance anyway. As I mentioned, the whole point of the discussion (in my mind) is to help us understand what the limitations of our carbs are so that we can determine if something isn't right. It's quite possible it SHOULDN'T ever hesitateand my flying habits would mask that condition and I'd never know if my carb was adjusted right in that regime or not. Lastly, the old drip from these old carbs. I'm on the verge of buying a little Chief with an A65. The owner just had the carb totally overhauled (to the tune of $600) because it would drip. I was told that was silly, because they all drip...I'm of the opinion that no good carb should just drip. Something is wrong in there if it does. May not really matter because it won't drip while running, but still... Oh ya, one more thing. When I was buying n2rn it was being inspected. A cylinder had to be pulled for some work. After we put it together and ran it, it had a little pop on acceleration. Dick wasn't happy and we thought maybe leaking a little air somewhere and we went about tightening all the hose clamps on the intake system. Problem went away. None of them seemed loose. It does seem that this engine is quite sensitive to any leaks in the intake system. So don't confuse that problem with a POSSIBLE propensity for hesitating due to a lack of complexity.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Original Posted By: "C N Campbell"
The carb in n2rn was totally overhauled to the tune of $600 also, by a well respectedaviation carb shop (got all the receipts). I assume (though I havn't pulledand checked) that the throttle shaft issue would be resolved if worn forthat sort of rebuild and yellow tagging.Also, it would never quit while idling and starts well, both indicating that itisn't a worn throttle shaft. I've had problems with worn throttle shafts ontractors (very similar carbs) and old skid steers with Wisconsin VH4D's.That bulletin aforementioned is really interesting! Also hadn't yet found theincredible wealth of info on the fly baby website about little airplane engines.Super useful info.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
The carb in n2rn was totally overhauled to the tune of $600 also, by a well respectedaviation carb shop (got all the receipts). I assume (though I havn't pulledand checked) that the throttle shaft issue would be resolved if worn forthat sort of rebuild and yellow tagging.Also, it would never quit while idling and starts well, both indicating that itisn't a worn throttle shaft. I've had problems with worn throttle shafts ontractors (very similar carbs) and old skid steers with Wisconsin VH4D's.That bulletin aforementioned is really interesting! Also hadn't yet found theincredible wealth of info on the fly baby website about little airplane engines.Super useful info.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Re: Pietenpol-List: a way to avoid routing spars
Original Posted By: Clif Dawson
My chart from Bruhn's " Analysis and Design of Airplane Structures" shows spruce at 15% moisture content at 27 Pounds per cubic foot. Of course, this book was printed in 1949 -- figures might be different now. Chuck ----- Original Message -----
My chart from Bruhn's " Analysis and Design of Airplane Structures" shows spruce at 15% moisture content at 27 Pounds per cubic foot. Of course, this book was printed in 1949 -- figures might be different now. Chuck ----- Original Message -----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Original Posted By: "Don Emch"
Ref the drip on Stromberg carbs, there was a guy at OSH who seems to know EVERYTHINGabout the Stromberg and showed us a mod right from the NAS3 overhaul manualthat permanently fixes the leak. It involves plugging a port that ends upbelow float level when a tail wheel aircraft is on the ground and drilling asmall hole "higher" up on the carb body. Easy to do and a permanent fix or sohe said. What he warned about was the typical "Must be the float cover gasket.I'll just lean on the screws and tighten it a bit more." response from manymechanics. That does nothing useful if the gasket is correctly installed andcan warp the cover if done to an extreme. Same guy said he was close to FAA-PMA approval for replacement float needle andseats. That would be a good thing since the steel ones are pretty much NLA.As an unrelated data point, my Piper Cherokee has an FAA warning on the instrumentpanel about not rapidly advancing the throttle even though the O-320 usesa Marvel Dribbler MA4-SPA with an accelerator pump.DaveRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Ref the drip on Stromberg carbs, there was a guy at OSH who seems to know EVERYTHINGabout the Stromberg and showed us a mod right from the NAS3 overhaul manualthat permanently fixes the leak. It involves plugging a port that ends upbelow float level when a tail wheel aircraft is on the ground and drilling asmall hole "higher" up on the carb body. Easy to do and a permanent fix or sohe said. What he warned about was the typical "Must be the float cover gasket.I'll just lean on the screws and tighten it a bit more." response from manymechanics. That does nothing useful if the gasket is correctly installed andcan warp the cover if done to an extreme. Same guy said he was close to FAA-PMA approval for replacement float needle andseats. That would be a good thing since the steel ones are pretty much NLA.As an unrelated data point, my Piper Cherokee has an FAA warning on the instrumentpanel about not rapidly advancing the throttle even though the O-320 usesa Marvel Dribbler MA4-SPA with an accelerator pump.DaveRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Original Posted By: gboothe5(at)comcast.net
So Oscar, you know that despite the fact that I'm recovering I can still kick yourbutt, right?:)Just kidding, of course.On the rebuild, we will do the following:- 3 piece wing,- Use a Gary Boothe fuel tank (~16 gallons),- Move the fuel tank filler port forward a little for ease of refueling,- Probably use the lightweight fabric as Jack mentioned,- Slant the back seat back a little as Jack mentioned,- Figure out a way to make Shelley more comfortable in the front seat, raise theseat, figure out better cushions, whatever,- Maybe raise the turtle deck an inch? We'll see,- Use fittings at the top of the rear cabanes as an attach point for the frontseat shoulder harness attach cable vs. the through-the-cabane eyebolts we used,- Maybe use a head rest to raise the back seat shoulder harness,- I loved the brakes, but need to figure out a way to quit popping spokes. Mayjust use Jack's design. We'll see,- Maybe a cutout in the wing?- Add a sump to the fuel tank, of course....I loved the airplane and it performed nicely. These are changes for convenience(except for the sump in the fuel tank, of course...).--------Kevin "Axel" PurteeNX899KPAustin/San Marcos, TXRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
So Oscar, you know that despite the fact that I'm recovering I can still kick yourbutt, right?:)Just kidding, of course.On the rebuild, we will do the following:- 3 piece wing,- Use a Gary Boothe fuel tank (~16 gallons),- Move the fuel tank filler port forward a little for ease of refueling,- Probably use the lightweight fabric as Jack mentioned,- Slant the back seat back a little as Jack mentioned,- Figure out a way to make Shelley more comfortable in the front seat, raise theseat, figure out better cushions, whatever,- Maybe raise the turtle deck an inch? We'll see,- Use fittings at the top of the rear cabanes as an attach point for the frontseat shoulder harness attach cable vs. the through-the-cabane eyebolts we used,- Maybe use a head rest to raise the back seat shoulder harness,- I loved the brakes, but need to figure out a way to quit popping spokes. Mayjust use Jack's design. We'll see,- Maybe a cutout in the wing?- Add a sump to the fuel tank, of course....I loved the airplane and it performed nicely. These are changes for convenience(except for the sump in the fuel tank, of course...).--------Kevin "Axel" PurteeNX899KPAustin/San Marcos, TXRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Re: Pietenpol-List: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Original Posted By: Andrew Eldredge
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1NoKK. try this, _http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/fenton.htm#nologs_ (http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/fenton.htm#nologs) In a message dated 9/6/2012 11:25:34 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, n0kkj(at)yahoo.com writes:--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "tools" The carb in n2rn was totally overhauled to the tune of $600 also, by a well respected aviation carb shop (got all the receipts). I assume (though Ihavn't pulled and checked) that the throttle shaft issue would be resolved if worn for that sort of rebuild and yellow tagging.Also, it would never quit while idling and starts well, both indicating that it isn't a worn throttle shaft. I've had problems with worn throttle shafts on tractors (very similar carbs) and old skid steers with Wisconsin VH4D's.That bulletin aforementioned is really interesting! Also hadn't yet found the incredible wealth of info on the fly baby website about little airplane engines.Super useful info.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 10:08:14 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1NoKK. try this, _http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/fenton.htm#nologs_ (http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/fenton.htm#nologs) In a message dated 9/6/2012 11:25:34 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, n0kkj(at)yahoo.com writes:--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "tools" The carb in n2rn was totally overhauled to the tune of $600 also, by a well respected aviation carb shop (got all the receipts). I assume (though Ihavn't pulled and checked) that the throttle shaft issue would be resolved if worn for that sort of rebuild and yellow tagging.Also, it would never quit while idling and starts well, both indicating that it isn't a worn throttle shaft. I've had problems with worn throttle shafts on tractors (very similar carbs) and old skid steers with Wisconsin VH4D's.That bulletin aforementioned is really interesting! Also hadn't yet found the incredible wealth of info on the fly baby website about little airplane engines.Super useful info.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 10:08:14 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Original Posted By: Ryan Mueller
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fly Baby pageHere is the addy for the bowers fly baby site. There is a lot of info on engines and wood working. You can learn from this site. Dave _http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/index.html#woodi_ (http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/index.html#woodi) ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 12:11:21 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fly Baby pageHere is the addy for the bowers fly baby site. There is a lot of info on engines and wood working. You can learn from this site. Dave _http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/index.html#woodi_ (http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/index.html#woodi) ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 12:11:21 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Original Posted By: "taildrags"
Dave and Gary,I had the old hole plugged and new drilled in mine at overhaul. Supposed to bebetter for sitting in the 3 point at a steeper angle like mine does. Never leaks.As far as the stumble goes... it is very faint and since I've noticed itin so many other airplanes, I've never given it much thought.Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Dave and Gary,I had the old hole plugged and new drilled in mine at overhaul. Supposed to bebetter for sitting in the 3 point at a steeper angle like mine does. Never leaks.As far as the stumble goes... it is very faint and since I've noticed itin so many other airplanes, I've never given it much thought.Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Original Posted By: Andrew Eldredge
Ah, my favorite old carb! I've worked with probably a half-dozen different onesnow, and the one that is presently on Scout (A75) behaves precisely as Toolsdescribes. So I do what Tools does... when I get ready to take off, I applycarb heat and leave it on till the engine is running strong and we're ready tounstick from the runway (just a couple of seconds, really). I have not triedthe trick of easing in just a little throttle to get it off the idle circuitfirst, but that's another one I'll try. A quick shove on the throttle, hot orcold, without carb heat applied is a guarantee of stumble, hesitation, and hardswallowing on my part.As to the dribble, I've ended that problem by carefully setting the float levelper the information that is also found on the FlyBaby site. It's a bit tediousbut if done slowly and carefully and with the simple little measuring tool,it will be correct and you won't get dribble out the air box. I also don't flyauto gas... the Stromberg on my old A65 would drool fuel every time I triedauto gas if I set the float level for avgas, so I stopped flying with car gas.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford/Ashland, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 21:24:50 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Ah, my favorite old carb! I've worked with probably a half-dozen different onesnow, and the one that is presently on Scout (A75) behaves precisely as Toolsdescribes. So I do what Tools does... when I get ready to take off, I applycarb heat and leave it on till the engine is running strong and we're ready tounstick from the runway (just a couple of seconds, really). I have not triedthe trick of easing in just a little throttle to get it off the idle circuitfirst, but that's another one I'll try. A quick shove on the throttle, hot orcold, without carb heat applied is a guarantee of stumble, hesitation, and hardswallowing on my part.As to the dribble, I've ended that problem by carefully setting the float levelper the information that is also found on the FlyBaby site. It's a bit tediousbut if done slowly and carefully and with the simple little measuring tool,it will be correct and you won't get dribble out the air box. I also don't flyauto gas... the Stromberg on my old A65 would drool fuel every time I triedauto gas if I set the float level for avgas, so I stopped flying with car gas.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford/Ashland, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 21:24:50 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Original Posted By: "taildrags"
Yep, classic a65 flood clearing procedure from what I've heard from a few differentsources.Mags - offThrot - wide openBlades - pull through BACKWARDS, about a dozenThrot - closed (EASY to screw this up, be VERY careful)Carb heat - offMags - onStart as usual.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Yep, classic a65 flood clearing procedure from what I've heard from a few differentsources.Mags - offThrot - wide openBlades - pull through BACKWARDS, about a dozenThrot - closed (EASY to screw this up, be VERY careful)Carb heat - offMags - onStart as usual.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Original Posted By: Ryan Mueller
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Original Posted By: Ryan Mueller
Steve,I have quit using the method you have described when clearing my flooded Cont. A friend of mine who use to investigate AC accidents for Cont. powered aircraftshowed me a better method and it works every time. I'm sure that you havenoticed that when you clear it with your procedures that it will not always workevery time. I'll describe the way I do it now. First make sure the planes tail is tied downfor safety. With the Mags off and the throttle in the wide open position,Pull the prop through about 10 blades in the forward direction. This does a coupleof things. It pushes the raw fuel out the exhaust rather than putting itback into the intake system (reducing the chance of a backfire into the carburetorand fire) and it also keeps the engine oil in the oil pump (preventingoil cavitation). After pulling it through, reduce the throttle to the idle orcracked position (whatever works best for you), Flip on the mags and it willstart on the first pull. Works every time. The only scary part is pulling itthrough at WOT and hoping that the mag switches work. Keep mindful that Switchescan fail and you could have an unintentional engine start when pulling itthrough. But we all know that we must be prepare for that anytime we toucha prop. I am one who shuts my engine down with the mag switches and I am fairlyconfident that my switches always work. Give it a try, I think it is a better alternative and better for the engine.--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 09:58:23 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Steve,I have quit using the method you have described when clearing my flooded Cont. A friend of mine who use to investigate AC accidents for Cont. powered aircraftshowed me a better method and it works every time. I'm sure that you havenoticed that when you clear it with your procedures that it will not always workevery time. I'll describe the way I do it now. First make sure the planes tail is tied downfor safety. With the Mags off and the throttle in the wide open position,Pull the prop through about 10 blades in the forward direction. This does a coupleof things. It pushes the raw fuel out the exhaust rather than putting itback into the intake system (reducing the chance of a backfire into the carburetorand fire) and it also keeps the engine oil in the oil pump (preventingoil cavitation). After pulling it through, reduce the throttle to the idle orcracked position (whatever works best for you), Flip on the mags and it willstart on the first pull. Works every time. The only scary part is pulling itthrough at WOT and hoping that the mag switches work. Keep mindful that Switchescan fail and you could have an unintentional engine start when pulling itthrough. But we all know that we must be prepare for that anytime we toucha prop. I am one who shuts my engine down with the mag switches and I am fairlyconfident that my switches always work. Give it a try, I think it is a better alternative and better for the engine.--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 09:58:23 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Original Posted By: Ryan Mueller
Mr. Pietenpol did use 3/4" laminated spars at some point later on. I would thinka 3/4" laminated spar would inherently be a little stronger than a 3/4" solidspar because of doing away with the possible voids in a solid spar. Oftentimes I hear people mention that a 3/4" solid spar is as strong as a routed 1"spar. I don't believe this to be the case. The strength of the spar is in thetop and bottom where it is in tension and compression. That is why so manyof the older airplanes have routed spars... to get that larger cross-sectionat the top and bottom of the spar. As far as the cost goes the difference betweena 3/4" thick spar and a 1" thick spar is peanuts compared to the entire project.Obviously 3/4" solid spars are fine because there are many Piets flyingwith them. The Cubs, Champs, etc. that have less than 1" thick spars are quitea bit taller than the Piet's 4 3/4", giving more strength. One thing toremember... when many of the manufacturers from this era went to a more powerfulengine, they almost always increased the thickness of the spar...(Waco, AmericanEagle, Swallow, etc.) Keep in mind many of our Piets are flying aroundwith at least 50% more power than the original plans call for. I know this topic has been beaten to death but I just thought I'd share my thoughts.
Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 10:28:51 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Mr. Pietenpol did use 3/4" laminated spars at some point later on. I would thinka 3/4" laminated spar would inherently be a little stronger than a 3/4" solidspar because of doing away with the possible voids in a solid spar. Oftentimes I hear people mention that a 3/4" solid spar is as strong as a routed 1"spar. I don't believe this to be the case. The strength of the spar is in thetop and bottom where it is in tension and compression. That is why so manyof the older airplanes have routed spars... to get that larger cross-sectionat the top and bottom of the spar. As far as the cost goes the difference betweena 3/4" thick spar and a 1" thick spar is peanuts compared to the entire project.Obviously 3/4" solid spars are fine because there are many Piets flyingwith them. The Cubs, Champs, etc. that have less than 1" thick spars are quitea bit taller than the Piet's 4 3/4", giving more strength. One thing toremember... when many of the manufacturers from this era went to a more powerfulengine, they almost always increased the thickness of the spar...(Waco, AmericanEagle, Swallow, etc.) Keep in mind many of our Piets are flying aroundwith at least 50% more power than the original plans call for. I know this topic has been beaten to death but I just thought I'd share my thoughts.
Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 10:28:51 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Original Posted By: Ryan Mueller
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
Original Posted By: Andrew Eldredge
> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet parts to Brodhead> >> > >> > Dang, I'm stating to get that old familiar "we're going to Brodhead and> you're not..." feeling...again.> >> > I hate that....>>________________________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 06:20:09 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1
> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet parts to Brodhead> >> > >> > Dang, I'm stating to get that old familiar "we're going to Brodhead and> you're not..." feeling...again.> >> > I hate that....>>________________________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 06:20:09 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Stromberg NA-S3A1