Original Posted By: "Mark Roberts"
Hi Guys:What's the consensus out there on number of varnish coats needed for the fuselage...I got one coat on most of the front inside parts (did'nt get all the underneathsides fully or the outside of the bottom floor yet). But, I painted the metal parts I've welded with Alum. Oxide and then black enamelspray paint, and then put the first coat of unthinned Man-O-War spar varnishon the fuse.Felt I was getting somewhere for a change... but I guess that was just the fumes;o)So, what's the verdict on numbers of coats to be safe? (Did NOT paint the outsideof the fuse where the ply paneling will go... I want a good, raw surface therefor bonding...)MarkRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: What should I do to fix this??
Pietenpol-List: What should I do to fix this??
Pietenpol-List: What should I do to fix this??
Original Posted By: "Mark Roberts"
Hi Again:So while painting the varnish on the plane's fuse members today, I discovered somethingI am very glad I found, but wish I'd have seen before I build the fusesides.I cut all of my own longerons and cross pieces from raw, un-finished sitka. I cutover size then planed the pieces to the finished size. The vertical fuse strutthat connects the bottom fuse longeron to the top longeron, the one that thefront left cabane strut connects to, has a compression fracture in the woodabout 4-5 inches from the top longeron. You can see it plainly. It is actuallyglued to the inside 1/8" ply front fuse gusset that lines the inside of theengine tray, but still, it's there plain to see. Dunno how I missed it when Iwas building it.So, if I was to pull on the top of the cabane strut connection and the bottom ofthe plane (as if in a tug-o-war.... OR a high G manuver), I could see this partwanting to separate right at that fracture. It is, after all, the main connectionto the fuse.I am sure the 2 plywood sides would sandwich and hold the piece securely, but still...I want to make that area more secure with some reinforcement.I will post a picture of the fracture. It can be seen looking from the front ofthe fuse, and runs forward to back on the face of the strut that is glued tothe inside ply gusset. It is only on that side of the strut, but it is there.So, I am thinking of lining the front and rear of the strut where the fractureis with a 1/8 x 7/8" wide, x 8" or so long plate. That should make that wholearea surrounded with a "box" of plywood (the side of the fuse and the inside gusset,and the 2 plates) that would hold the tension stress of the wing tryingto pull the strut apart at the fracture, like a tug-o-war.Thoughts? I wish I'd seen this before the strut was in place. I really don't wantto try to cut that part out and replace it at this point unless I really haveto for safety. It would almost be like fixing a cracked strut that was't fullybroken in a landing or something...Thanks!!Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: What should I do to fix this??
Hi Again:So while painting the varnish on the plane's fuse members today, I discovered somethingI am very glad I found, but wish I'd have seen before I build the fusesides.I cut all of my own longerons and cross pieces from raw, un-finished sitka. I cutover size then planed the pieces to the finished size. The vertical fuse strutthat connects the bottom fuse longeron to the top longeron, the one that thefront left cabane strut connects to, has a compression fracture in the woodabout 4-5 inches from the top longeron. You can see it plainly. It is actuallyglued to the inside 1/8" ply front fuse gusset that lines the inside of theengine tray, but still, it's there plain to see. Dunno how I missed it when Iwas building it.So, if I was to pull on the top of the cabane strut connection and the bottom ofthe plane (as if in a tug-o-war.... OR a high G manuver), I could see this partwanting to separate right at that fracture. It is, after all, the main connectionto the fuse.I am sure the 2 plywood sides would sandwich and hold the piece securely, but still...I want to make that area more secure with some reinforcement.I will post a picture of the fracture. It can be seen looking from the front ofthe fuse, and runs forward to back on the face of the strut that is glued tothe inside ply gusset. It is only on that side of the strut, but it is there.So, I am thinking of lining the front and rear of the strut where the fractureis with a 1/8 x 7/8" wide, x 8" or so long plate. That should make that wholearea surrounded with a "box" of plywood (the side of the fuse and the inside gusset,and the 2 plates) that would hold the tension stress of the wing tryingto pull the strut apart at the fracture, like a tug-o-war.Thoughts? I wish I'd seen this before the strut was in place. I really don't wantto try to cut that part out and replace it at this point unless I really haveto for safety. It would almost be like fixing a cracked strut that was't fullybroken in a landing or something...Thanks!!Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: What should I do to fix this??
Original Posted By: John Franklin
Hi Again:So while painting the varnish on the plane's fuse members today, I discovered somethingI am very glad I found, but wish I'd have seen before I build the fusesides.I cut all of my own longerons and cross pieces from raw, un-finished sitka. I cutover size then planed the pieces to the finished size. The vertical fuse strutthat connects the bottom fuse longeron to the top longeron, the one that thefront left cabane strut connects to, has a compression fracture in the woodabout 4-5 inches from the top longeron. You can see it plainly. It is actuallyglued to the inside 1/8" ply front fuse gusset that lines the inside of theengine tray, but still, it's there plain to see. Dunno how I missed it when Iwas building it.So, if I was to pull on the top of the cabane strut connection and the bottom ofthe plane (as if in a tug-o-war.... OR a high G manuver), I could see this partwanting to separate right at that fracture. It is, after all, the main connectionto the fuse.I am sure the 2 plywood sides would sandwich and hold the piece securely, but still...I want to make that area more secure with some reinforcement.I will post a picture of the fracture. It can be seen looking from the front ofthe fuse, and runs forward to back on the face of the strut that is glued tothe inside ply gusset. It is only on that side of the strut, but it is there.So, I am thinking of lining the front and rear of the strut where the fractureis with a 1/8 x 7/8" wide, x 8" or so long plate. That should make that wholearea surrounded with a "box" of plywood (the side of the fuse and the inside gusset,and the 2 plates) that would hold the tension stress of the wing tryingto pull the strut apart at the fracture, like a tug-o-war.Thoughts? I wish I'd seen this before the strut was in place. I really don't wantto try to cut that part out and replace it at this point unless I really haveto for safety. It would almost be like fixing a cracked strut that was't fullybroken in a landing or something...Thanks!!Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 05:40:17 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Hi Again:So while painting the varnish on the plane's fuse members today, I discovered somethingI am very glad I found, but wish I'd have seen before I build the fusesides.I cut all of my own longerons and cross pieces from raw, un-finished sitka. I cutover size then planed the pieces to the finished size. The vertical fuse strutthat connects the bottom fuse longeron to the top longeron, the one that thefront left cabane strut connects to, has a compression fracture in the woodabout 4-5 inches from the top longeron. You can see it plainly. It is actuallyglued to the inside 1/8" ply front fuse gusset that lines the inside of theengine tray, but still, it's there plain to see. Dunno how I missed it when Iwas building it.So, if I was to pull on the top of the cabane strut connection and the bottom ofthe plane (as if in a tug-o-war.... OR a high G manuver), I could see this partwanting to separate right at that fracture. It is, after all, the main connectionto the fuse.I am sure the 2 plywood sides would sandwich and hold the piece securely, but still...I want to make that area more secure with some reinforcement.I will post a picture of the fracture. It can be seen looking from the front ofthe fuse, and runs forward to back on the face of the strut that is glued tothe inside ply gusset. It is only on that side of the strut, but it is there.So, I am thinking of lining the front and rear of the strut where the fractureis with a 1/8 x 7/8" wide, x 8" or so long plate. That should make that wholearea surrounded with a "box" of plywood (the side of the fuse and the inside gusset,and the 2 plates) that would hold the tension stress of the wing tryingto pull the strut apart at the fracture, like a tug-o-war.Thoughts? I wish I'd seen this before the strut was in place. I really don't wantto try to cut that part out and replace it at this point unless I really haveto for safety. It would almost be like fixing a cracked strut that was't fullybroken in a landing or something...Thanks!!Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 05:40:17 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Pietenpol-List: Re: What should I do to fix this??
Original Posted By: "tools"
Hi Mark,Throughout the whole process of building an airplane you really want to have themindset of... "what is the most correct thing to do?" Even though the mostcorrect is usually not what you want to do. If you know in the back of your mindthat the most correct thing would be to cut that thing out and away from thegusset and replace it, then that is what you should do.Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: What should I do to fix this??
Hi Mark,Throughout the whole process of building an airplane you really want to have themindset of... "what is the most correct thing to do?" Even though the mostcorrect is usually not what you want to do. If you know in the back of your mindthat the most correct thing would be to cut that thing out and away from thegusset and replace it, then that is what you should do.Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: What should I do to fix this??
Original Posted By: "Douwe Blumberg"
Based on your varnish post, I guess you haven't put on the plywood sides?I'd just replace that part. At 5" from one end, not far enough for a proper scarf...Pretty sure the 43.13 would have you replacing the part. If you wereto scarf, it would then have you boxing in the scarf I think.A compression fracture is just one of those bad things.If you decide not to, I'd do a scarf to replace the fracture, as long as you can,and then box around it, rather than just leaving the fracture there. The designcalls for a inch cross section (well, close). The boxing in you describeonly gives you a 1/4 of what the plans call for at 1/8 each.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Based on your varnish post, I guess you haven't put on the plywood sides?I'd just replace that part. At 5" from one end, not far enough for a proper scarf...Pretty sure the 43.13 would have you replacing the part. If you wereto scarf, it would then have you boxing in the scarf I think.A compression fracture is just one of those bad things.If you decide not to, I'd do a scarf to replace the fracture, as long as you can,and then box around it, rather than just leaving the fracture there. The designcalls for a inch cross section (well, close). The boxing in you describeonly gives you a 1/4 of what the plans call for at 1/8 each.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Re: Pietenpol-List: What should I do to fix this??
Original Posted By: Ken Bickers
Steven,I have to ask: Why do you begin your posts with, "UNCLASSIFIED"?GaryNX308MBSent from my iPhoneOn Apr 22, 2013, at 5:36 AM, "Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB" wrote:> wrote:________________________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 08:40:51 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: What should I do to fix this??
Steven,I have to ask: Why do you begin your posts with, "UNCLASSIFIED"?GaryNX308MBSent from my iPhoneOn Apr 22, 2013, at 5:36 AM, "Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB" wrote:> wrote:________________________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 08:40:51 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: What should I do to fix this??
Pietenpol-List: Re: What should I do to fix this??
Original Posted By: "jarheadpilot82"
By all means come on out if can get away. I met Zeke yesterday at Culpeper - hestopped by to see Mr. Sam and introduce himself. Was nice to meet him. I hopeto pop over to White Post soon. Last I spoke with Gene, his Piet Masterpiece(understatement) is very close. The fuse and tail are done and the wing isbuilt. He's in the final stages of sanding and painting the wing. I'm lookingforward to the maiden flight.--------Jim McWhorterN687MB (New Owner)Culpeper, VA KCJRRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: What should I do to fix this??
By all means come on out if can get away. I met Zeke yesterday at Culpeper - hestopped by to see Mr. Sam and introduce himself. Was nice to meet him. I hopeto pop over to White Post soon. Last I spoke with Gene, his Piet Masterpiece(understatement) is very close. The fuse and tail are done and the wing isbuilt. He's in the final stages of sanding and painting the wing. I'm lookingforward to the maiden flight.--------Jim McWhorterN687MB (New Owner)Culpeper, VA KCJRRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: What should I do to fix this??
Pietenpol-List: Re: What should I do to fix this??
Original Posted By: "Mark Roberts"
Mark,Before you do anything, go read AC43-13 as several others have suggested. Afteryou have read it then ask yourself, "if I only repair it, and the repair fails,what is the worst that can happen to me and my passengers"?If you can sleep well at night with the answer you come up with, then let thatguide you. Not trying to be harsh, but I am trying to get you to add risk managementin your tool box as you build.--------Semper Fi,Terry HandAthens, GARead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: What should I do to fix this??
Mark,Before you do anything, go read AC43-13 as several others have suggested. Afteryou have read it then ask yourself, "if I only repair it, and the repair fails,what is the worst that can happen to me and my passengers"?If you can sleep well at night with the answer you come up with, then let thatguide you. Not trying to be harsh, but I am trying to get you to add risk managementin your tool box as you build.--------Semper Fi,Terry HandAthens, GARead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: What should I do to fix this??
Pietenpol-List: Re: What should I do to fix this??
Original Posted By: "tools"
OK. What a bunch of spoil sports.The next time I need a good honest answer, I will ask somewhere else
)Thanks to all of you that posted, as you confirmed what I felt in my heart: thisthing needs to be replaced, not repaired. As much as I want to keep it there,I don't want the nagging thought in the back of my mind that I could have ahard landing and create a strut problem :oYou know how sometimes you want something to be different and you know the truthto be something else.... that's what happened when I saw that compression fracture.Immediately knew "Replacement" but hoped "fix".So, if I ever make it to Brodhead and wanna give rides to people that read thislist, I'd better replace the strut )Thanks guys! I appreciate the answers. AC-43-13 at hand as well....MarkRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: What should I do to fix this??
OK. What a bunch of spoil sports.The next time I need a good honest answer, I will ask somewhere else
)Thanks to all of you that posted, as you confirmed what I felt in my heart: thisthing needs to be replaced, not repaired. As much as I want to keep it there,I don't want the nagging thought in the back of my mind that I could have ahard landing and create a strut problem :oYou know how sometimes you want something to be different and you know the truthto be something else.... that's what happened when I saw that compression fracture.Immediately knew "Replacement" but hoped "fix".So, if I ever make it to Brodhead and wanna give rides to people that read thislist, I'd better replace the strut )Thanks guys! I appreciate the answers. AC-43-13 at hand as well....MarkRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: What should I do to fix this??Original Posted By: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB"
Excellent choice!Having done this kind of repair before, I think the easiest is a decent set ofhand chisels and a smallish back saw (even a model airplane style x-acto willwork fine).I'm still not certain you've put on the sides, I'll assume so as it's worst case.Using the chisels remove the upper and lower interior gusset plates. If you'vegot nails, try to pry them out first, but it's not a big deal, a good chiselwill cut through them if necessary. Try to remove the top few plys, that'll keepyou out of the good part of the other members. Then just pare the remainingplywood off. It's more controlled than sanding, less messy and noisy and won'ttake but 20 or 30 minutes each. Get comfortable to where you can control the chisel and use a skewing cut. Laythe chisel flat, bevel up and "slice". It won't take a lot of pressure if thechisel is decently sharp. You're not cutting anything hard, so you can sharpenthe chisel with a rather flat bevel, in the 25 degree range.Cut almost through the piece above and below the fracture, nearly to the skin.Take a chisel and knock that piece out. Then use the chisel from the newly exposedends, bevel down and try to split off about 1/8" at a time from that endinto the cluster joint. In a few splits, you'll be close to the skin. Whenyou get to the skin, do just like before and pare off the remaining spruce andglue. You'll have to do it bevel down and be careful, unless you have somecrank neck chisels (which would work REALLY well, then you can get level bevelup and not risk digging in). In fact, they'll work so well, it might be worth bending the neck of a chisel todo this job. Most tangs should be soft enough to do it cold... The spruce and epoxy are very soft and it won't be difficult. It'll seem tedious,which is it, but it'll be carefully carved out of there before you know it.If you do dig into something you don't want it, it'll be a very minor deal,not a major goof. Epoxy is very gap filling so a little dig here and there aremeaningless. I'd do it all by hand, not hammering the chisel along with amallet (until you get the hang of things). If you carve out 1/32" at a time, it'll take you 32 operations... at a couple minuteseach... so an hour? The thing is, it's slow and safe, not nerve wracking,you learn as you go to get more efficient, just very very little risk. Thewood will be immediately prepared to receive the new piece.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Excellent choice!Having done this kind of repair before, I think the easiest is a decent set ofhand chisels and a smallish back saw (even a model airplane style x-acto willwork fine).I'm still not certain you've put on the sides, I'll assume so as it's worst case.Using the chisels remove the upper and lower interior gusset plates. If you'vegot nails, try to pry them out first, but it's not a big deal, a good chiselwill cut through them if necessary. Try to remove the top few plys, that'll keepyou out of the good part of the other members. Then just pare the remainingplywood off. It's more controlled than sanding, less messy and noisy and won'ttake but 20 or 30 minutes each. Get comfortable to where you can control the chisel and use a skewing cut. Laythe chisel flat, bevel up and "slice". It won't take a lot of pressure if thechisel is decently sharp. You're not cutting anything hard, so you can sharpenthe chisel with a rather flat bevel, in the 25 degree range.Cut almost through the piece above and below the fracture, nearly to the skin.Take a chisel and knock that piece out. Then use the chisel from the newly exposedends, bevel down and try to split off about 1/8" at a time from that endinto the cluster joint. In a few splits, you'll be close to the skin. Whenyou get to the skin, do just like before and pare off the remaining spruce andglue. You'll have to do it bevel down and be careful, unless you have somecrank neck chisels (which would work REALLY well, then you can get level bevelup and not risk digging in). In fact, they'll work so well, it might be worth bending the neck of a chisel todo this job. Most tangs should be soft enough to do it cold... The spruce and epoxy are very soft and it won't be difficult. It'll seem tedious,which is it, but it'll be carefully carved out of there before you know it.If you do dig into something you don't want it, it'll be a very minor deal,not a major goof. Epoxy is very gap filling so a little dig here and there aremeaningless. I'd do it all by hand, not hammering the chisel along with amallet (until you get the hang of things). If you carve out 1/32" at a time, it'll take you 32 operations... at a couple minuteseach... so an hour? The thing is, it's slow and safe, not nerve wracking,you learn as you go to get more efficient, just very very little risk. Thewood will be immediately prepared to receive the new piece.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Pietenpol-List: Re: What should I do to fix this??
Original Posted By: "Mark Roberts"
How much did you have to pay the poor rube to go up with you? ;o) He looks likehe's having wayyy too much fun!--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: What should I do to fix this??
How much did you have to pay the poor rube to go up with you? ;o) He looks likehe's having wayyy too much fun!--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: What should I do to fix this??