Brodhead Pietenpol Association

Original Posted By: cncampbell(at)windstream.net
Its coming

Original Posted By: Kip and Beth Gardner
I've been biting my tongue on this one, but Chuck's responses warrant a comment,I think.Chuck wrote:> I mean, if I were building a 300-HP, 300-MPH airplane this would be a concern.The plane I'm building will probably never get to 100 MPH and will probablynever see more than 1.5 - 2.0 Gs. Give me a break! > 1. If you were building a 300HP, 300MPH airplane, the spars would have been designedto handle the stresses that such a plane would encounter. But you're buildinga less-than-100HP, less-than-100MPH airplane that was designed as such.The spars as indicated in the plans are sized for the conditions that THIS airplaneis expected to encounter. If you use materials that do not meet the normallyaccepted standards, as set out in AC 43.13-1b, then you are basically weakeningthe structure of the aircraft.2. If you do a 60 degree banked turn, your airplane will see 2 Gs. If you makea steeper turn, you could easily see 3 Gs or more. Add some turbulence, and itgets even worse. General aviation light aircraft are designed to withstand +4Gs. Using sub-standard spars can significantly reduce the stresses that the airframecan safely handle.Some parts of an aircraft can withstand some damage, and manage to make it safelyback to earth. The spars are not among those parts. If a spar fails in flight,you (and any passenger) are toast.Hopefully the "break" you're asking for is not in one of your spars.Give this matter some serious thought, Chuck.Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

Original Posted By:> norm
Charles,Have you rigged and trammeled the wing yet? If so, you should not have glued the ribs in place anyway. The ribs are not a structural part of the wing per se, the spars, compression struts and drag/ antidrag cables are what give the wing its proper shape/geometry and structural strength.Kip GardnerOn Mar 28, 2011, at 9:55 AM, Charles Campbell wrote:> Norm, here's the thing. I have epoxy glued 14 ribs to those spars. > I don't want to tear that whole thing up if I don't have to. This > 'dar' you mentioned, how can I find out who he/she is for my area > and do you think he/she would be willing to come look at the wing to > see if I REALLY need to tear it up? I'm satisfied that for what the > airplane will be asked to do that it would be perfectly safe. But, > as you say, it would be a shame to get the thing finished and then > not be able to get it licensed. I would appreciate your ideas. Chuck> ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Richard Schreiber"
Hi Jack - I think I understand what you're asking. There's not much room in thecockpit to slide that bottom aileron control attachment horn forward. I builtthe controls before I figured out the wing geometry. In order to accommodatethe rearward slope of the cables, I clearanced the panel base plywood uponassembly. Hope that makes sense and I hope I understood your question.Kevin--------Kevin "Axel" PurteeNX899KPAustin/Georgetown, TXRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

Original Posted By: "Gboothe5"
Chuck:The FAR's for structual wood is pretty clear. The maximum allowable grain run out(slope of the grain lines) is 1 inch in 15 inches. From your photographs youhave some ares where it is 1 inch in 2. Your grain pattern is also wavy. TheFAR's allow this. but only if the run out is maintained, which in your case itisn't. In addition the number of annular groth rings should be a minimum of6 per inch, but preferably in the 12 to 15 per inch range. In some areas of yourspars it looks to be 1 line per inch. Chuck, I know you have put a lot of effort in getting your wings to this state,but the bottom line is that they are unsafe. Its highly unlikely you will getan airworthiness certificate upon inspection. Its far better to correct the problemnow rather putting more effort into it.Rick Schreiber,Valparaiso, IN________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Jack,I also have a 4" tilt back (swag), and the aileron portion of my assembly isbuilt to plans. The routing holes for the cable were done with strings andeyeballs, but the end result is that there was plenty of room behind theinstruments; and I did not increase the length of my cabanes, making theangle greater than those who have..not sure if that helps.Gary Boothe

Original Posted By: Ken Bickers
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings

Original Posted By: "Richard Schreiber"
I'm trying to visualize what it must be like for Chuck, when he realizes, orlearns from his DAR or FAA inspector, that his spars are un-airworthy, andwhat the possible resolves are. Is it worth trying to save all those ribsand figure out a way to remove the spar without damaging each rib? For me itwould be, but I know others who actually enjoy making those crazy things!How about you, Chuck? Are you interested in putting forth the question andgetting some ideas on how to cut the ribs loose?Gary Boothe________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Richard Schreiber
Chuck:Here is a link to a very good report from the EAA on spar wood selection. http://www.oshkosh365.org/saarchive/eaa ... 9_19.pdfBy the way the number of growth lines per inch that I quoted was for spruce. Fordouglas fir, which it appears your spars are, its actually a minimum of 8 perinch.Attached is an example of typical spruce spar material from Aircraft Spruce.Regards,Rick Schreiber----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
It does Kevin, thanks. I'm just trying to "predict the future" hoping thecables won't interfere with instruments' or depart through the panel.JackDSM-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Gboothe5
Gary:I with you on this one! It certainly would be devastating to wind out that thespars are not acceptable. Here are a couple of possibilities. 1. Consider the spars as toast. Carefully cut the spars between each rib, thenusing whatever means necessary, remove the spar materal from each of the ribs.It would be alot of work, but certainly less than rebuilding all of the ribs.2. Junk the whole wing assembly and order another set of finished ribs. I knowthat Edgar Howe sells a nice set of completed ribs (either the original Pietenpolairfoil or the Riblett 612 for around $300. I know that I sure wouldn't havethe heart to redo the ribs.Chuck, if you decide to order the ribs, Edgar can be reached at 219-508-6880. Healso will be at Brodhead with ribs for sale.Regards,Rick Schreiber----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Don Emch"
don, these are made of Douglas Fir and I thought they would be much stronger than spruce. The strength tables show that they are.----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Charles Campbell"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rounded Seat for Delrin Needle, Stromberg Carb,Conti...Curt I have not heard from Mike. If you want the needle seat let me know. Just send me your address. Dave________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "Don Emch"
Don, what do you think of the rear spar? Can you see enough of it to comment?----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Gboothe5
I have already received a couple, but go ahead if you have any suggestions. ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Drive a =BD=94 chisel under each rib, from both sides. Remove rib, clean up witha file.Gary

Original Posted By: Richard Schreiber
What do the initials DAR stand for? It's designated aircraft R-------? I'm going to try to find the one for my area and I want it from the horse's mouth that he won't approve my wing before I do ANYTHING. ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Richard Schreiber
I don't believe I'll be ordering ribs that have been made by someone else. I think I can salvedge the ones I have if it comes to that. ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Gboothe5
How do I find out who the DAR is in my area? ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Ryan Mueller
Chuck,I am a new guy to this forum, and have yet to start building my ribs. I do, however,feel for you. >From my woodworking experience (and I am sure that there are plenty of peopleon this forum with far more experience, than I), I guess i would start by cuttingall 14 ribs off the spars. Cut through the spars as close as possible to eachrib (but not too close) and lay the ribs aside. I know when I am unhappy withwork that I have done, the first thing I want to do is get rid of the evidence!I am trying to make a joke here, but the truth is that I want the unacceptablework gone.I would then come up with the top 5 ways to fix the problem. Next, I would go oneby one and try them until you find the easiest, best way to accomplish thejob. Some suggestions-1. I like Don's idea of cutting through the rib and both uprights, clean up theinside portions of the capstrips, put the rib back on the jig and redo the uprights.2. You could try taking a chisel and carefully chipping away at the portion ofrib that remains.3. Start a kindling for next winter, and start over on half your ribs. (The leastpalatable choice, but the one I would probably think of doing, out of frustration).4. Buy 'em and call it a tuition payment to the school of airplane building.I wish you the best and I will keep you posted as I begin making my ribs. I knowthat you will do well as you move forward. Don't let this take the wind outof your sails.--------Semper Fi,TerryRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 15:42:40 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
I also have an extra set of standard Piet ribs which I would let go veryreasonably. I bought them about two years ago.Bob

Original Posted By: "Don Emch"
OK, Don. Thanks for your concern. I am in the process of locating the designated inspector for this region. I want to talk to him before I do anything about ripping my wing apart. The way you suggested is the way I will do it if it comes to that. Thanks again. Chuck----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Gboothe5
Sounds good, Gary. Thanks. ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Charles Campbell
Chuck:>From the EAA...."In order for an amateur-built or light-sport airworthiness certificateto be issued to an aircraft, it must be inspected by a representativeof the FAA. This can be either an FAA employee or a private individual who hasbeen designated by the FAA to perform these inspections. This designee is calleda Designated Airworthiness Representative, or "DAR". Due to budgetary andmanpower restrictions at FAA offices, most applicants will find it more expedientto work with a DAR.The Amateur-Built (AB) FAA Designated Airworthiness Representative (DAR) programis a joint effort between EAA, the FAA and the Transportation Safety Institute(TSI), and is designed to provide amateur-built aircraft builders greater accessto AB DARs to certify their completed aircraft.AB DARs have the FAA authorization to complete the final inspection and issue theairworthiness certificate and operating limitations for your amateur-builtaircraft. "Here is a link about this from the EAA http://members.eaa.org/home/govt/help/ab_dar.aspIt is my understanding that it used to be that you had to have an FAA pre-coverinspection and authorization before proceeding to the covering phase on fabriccovered experimatal aircraft. Due to the budgetary constraints this has beeneliminated and mostly replaced by the use of EAA tech counselors. In our local EAA chapter we have 2 EAA tech counselors that have kept track ofmy progress for the past 8 years. If I don't call them, they will call me to comeout and inspect my Piet. There is no charge for the inspection. After theinspection a report is filled out with a copy to me and a copy for the EAA andFAA. As a hypthetical question, if during your final inspection by the FAA or a DARyou are asked about what you used for your spars, what are you going to say?You will not have a reciept showing your spars were aircraft grade spruce andphotographs of the finished wings to prove it. What you currently have are photosof Douglas Fir spars that do not come close to meeting the FAR's. What then?Your best course of action is to have a EAA tech councelor come out and look atthe wings. At least that way you have someone you can talk to about the concernsface to face. As I think Don Emch said, We are not trying to get in your faceabout this. We all have empathy for you, as there is not one of us who hasnot had to do some serious reconstruction. We just want to make sure you staysafe and take the best path forward.Regards,Rick Schreiber----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: shad bell
Chuck,It sounds like you have a very good plan. One nice thing about having a DAR comeout to visit is that you can load up with a whole bunch of questions and justspend a couple of hours drilling him on many different subjects. Good luck!Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 15:46:34 -0700 (PDT)

Original Posted By: TOM MICHELLE BRANT
Hi TomGive me a call tonight or tomorrow, I can help you.I'm at Sun n Fun so don't e mail me back, I wont get your message for a couple of days.612-805-1742 ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Michael Perez

Original Posted By: shad bell
Thanks, Shad. Good advice! ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Chuck, as I recall you're in Winston-Salem, right? If I were you I wouldcontact Eric Minnis, at the Greensboro FSDO. He's a homebuilder and veryknowledgeable. He also is NOT your typical Fed (he refers to Oklahoma Cityas FAA Hindquarters). He can give you a more definitive ruling than anyDAR. He's a good guy and will tell you the truth.Try eric.minnis(at)faa.govJack PhillipsNX899JP "Icarus Plummet"Raleigh, NC _____

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
One advantage to having the FSDO do the inspection is that they will do itfor free, where a DAR will charge as much as $500 for an inspection. Andthe FSDO can make an absolute ruling, where the DAR will always worry aboutthe FSDO looking over his shoulder.And if you can wait a couple of weeks, I can come look at it for you. I aman EAA Tech Counselor. But I expect I can give you my ruling just fromlooking at the photos. I would not fly with such spars. Nor would I gluethe ribs in place until the rest of the wing was built (and even then justtack them in place if anything).Jack PhillipsNX899JP "Icarus Plummet"Raleigh, NC _____

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
I might add that if you do auger in, it will be another one of thosedangerous experimental airplanes that most of the public thinks should beoutlawed. Think about the rest of us Chuck (if not yourself), build itright or don't build it at all. We don't need any more bad press than wealready have. You owe it to the sport. CW-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Jack Phillips
Thanks, Jack. I just E-mailed him and asked for his opinion. I sent him the same picture that started all the discussion. Chuck ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Jack Phillips
OK, Jack. Let's wait and see what the FSDO has to say. I have about decided to go ahead and order spruce spar stock from A/S. I'll wait for now. I sent Eric the same picture that you saw. ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Charles been there done that, hang in there. The tool herehttp://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/multi ... tools.html has helpedme get through many tight cutting and sanding situations.Take care,JackDSM-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Chuck,If you do glue the ribs I would suggest waiting until the wing parts aredone, I slid mine off and on the spars no less than 10 times throughconstruction. This is also true for most of the ship. To date my seats andturtle deck are just clamped.JackDSMwww.textors.com _____

Original Posted By: Jack
Way to go! You are so far ahead of me, and this latest thing with my wing spars is going to set me back some more. I was hoping to finish everything and fly off the test phase in time to fly to William Wynne's 'Corvair College' in Barnwell SC in November. Oh well, maybe I can just drive down! Chuck ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "AircamperN11MS"
At the advice of Jack Phillips, who is also an EAA Tech Counselor, I ordered a set of spruce spars this morning from A/S. Incidentally, Jack recommended I contact a friend of his who is in the FSDO in Greensboro, about 30 miles east of me - which I did. He also recommended very strongly that I replace the spars. Thanks for your concern. As soon as the new wood gets here that problem will be solved. Chuck----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "K5YAC"
Fantastic. I can't wait to see the new Pics.--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings

Original Posted By: Jim Boyer
Way to go Chuck! Don't let it get you down... I'm pretty sure that everyone hasprobably stumbled at some point in their project... good to see that you aren'tgoing to lose another minute fretting over it. As we use to say in the paratroops...adapt, improvise and overcome. I know it probably doesn't feel toogood right now, but you obviously realize that you'll be happier in the longrun. I recently had to scrap an idea that I had my heart set on (my aluminum controlhorns)... I had a lot of time invested in those parts, but due to the reasoningthat some offered here (and locally) I thought it was for the best. Honestly,the reviews were mixed, and even some that were against the idea admittedthat they would probably hold up well... but it was that "probably" part thatbothered all of us... not to mention that my welds (much like your spars) wouldbe covered and unable to be inspected thoroughly. You've made the right choice... keep pressing on.--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 22:26:16 +0000 (UTC)

Original Posted By: "Don Emch"
Tom,The bottom longeron (especially for the extended fuselage) doesn't have that muchcurvature, really. It shouldn't need any steaming or soaking. What "pressureon the clamps" are you referring to? Just screw a few blocks of wood (1 inchthick) along the profile of the longeron (a few on the outside, near the front,and more, on the inside, as needed), and the 1" x 1" should just slip in between.See attached photo for reference.Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/fuse ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings

Original Posted By: "Clif Dawson"
Great Chuck!Before you know it you'll have those wings together!Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

Original Posted By: shad bell
Second that. I went back for another look andsomething I haven't seen stressed is the grainorientation. On those boards it appears to methat some of it is at least 45.I don't know how much you know about thisstuff so bear with me.If you took a stack of 50 sheets of paper the"face" is the top sheet and the "edge" then islooking at the stack from the side. In a boardthis would be "face" grain. Now if you piled upa stack 5 ft tall then the reverse is true, the topis now the edge and the 5 ft side is the face. Thisis "edge" grain or vertical grain.THIS is what you want your board to look like!At least as much as possible. Personaly in myanal retentive way I won't use anything that hasa grain angle of more than 15 off that.You're a good man Chuck. You faced down thisbig fat demon. Bit the nasty bullet and won.Clifa number of List members that are breathing a collective sigh of relief. You were making some of us nervous.> The "sort of" comment above refers to the fact that you've had to take a > step or two backwards in your project - so that part isn't such good news > for you. However, I have a feeling that when you get those "real" spars, > you'll feel a whole lot better. >> Bill C.>>> Read this topic online here:>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 449#335449>>> -----> No virus found in this message.> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com> ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 18:55:59 -0700 (PDT)

Original Posted By: "Clif Dawson"
My whole problem was when I bought the lumber I looked at the grain on the short (3/4) side of the board and it looked OK, even though I didn't take a ruler and measure the grain runout. After the guy at the FSDO explained to me that I should have looked at the grain on the 6" side of the board did I realize the mistake I had made. That mistake cost me a couple hundred dollars plus a bunch of lost time. I spent two evenings routing out the rear spars -- which I will have to do again with the new spars. I would especially like to thank the person who originally E-mailed me about this, expressing concern over my spars. I think the "handle" was like womenfly2 or something like that. I couldn't find it in the piet list. If you read this, "Thanks, anyway."----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Jack Phillips"
Hey all, Just wondering if anyone has heard on update on them recently?Im not on the facebook or anything so i cant keep up there.Thanks!--------www.vansaviation.com follow my Piet rebuild there!almost dissasembled, getting ready to order all AN hardware and SS cableRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Kyle posted an update on 3/29. He has been discharged from the hospital.Amanda will be in the hospital for several more months. She has had surgeryon both hands, and has lost all fingers but her left thumb. They have alsodone surgery on her face to repair the fractures in her skull around hereyes, to try and save her vision. I believe she is still on a respirator(her lungs were badly seared by breathing burning gasoline). In an earlierupdate he said they are hoping she will regain consciousness in about 2months.She's got a long, painful, expensive road ahead and needs ALL our prayers.Jack PhillipsNX899JP "Icarus Plummet"Raleigh, NC-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Ryan Mueller
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Kyle and Amanda Franklin

Original Posted By: "Charles Campbell"
Thanks for the kind words. Everyone here shares equally with the help, that iswhat forums like this are for.The most important thing is you will have a safe airplane when finished and a longlife to enjoy it. "Keep the Dream"WF2--------Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

Original Posted By: "D.J.H."
> > I thought I might better explain why I am working so hard on trying to> trailer my piet. I have a full wood shop in a building thats 60 x 120> and I only use the back third for the wood shop and the rest is just> there collecting dust. Its cold here in Northern Cal. about 7 months> out of the year so I don't envision flying it then,though that doesn't> seem to stop everybody! The airport is 7 miles away and if I pass 10> cars on the way the road is busy so I don't worry about getting> crunched! So while $50. hanger space is not to tough it would buy a lot> of gas!> I was watching a friend of my open his wings on his Kitfox the other day> and noticed that he basically swung them open and put in one front pin.> I remarked that it was strange that Kitfox hadn't come up with a auto> lock on the wings as forgeting that bolt could be big trouble! So the> bottom line here is that with my 20 years of building and flying models> and the experiences and insite from this group I would like to try and> get those wings to come off and on with ease and safety. If not I will> have to build a Kitfox or something and miss out on this great group or> pay for hangar space for a piet. So let me go get a few napkins and> ------.> phil> > > --> Check out Crusader Toys @> http://www.thegrid.net/crusader/> ________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Phil Peck
> Subject: wings>> >I thought I might better explain why I am working so hard on trying> to> >trailer my piet. I have a full wood shop in a building thats 60 x> 120> >and I only use the back third for the wood shop and the rest is just> >there collecting dust. Its cold here in Northern Cal. about 7 months>> >out of the year so I don't envision flying it then,though that> doesn't> >seem to stop everybody! The airport is 7 miles away and if I pass 10>> >cars on the way the road is busy so I don't worry about getting> >crunched! So while $50. hanger space is not to tough it would buy a> lot> >of gas!> >I was watching a friend of my open his wings on his Kitfox the other> day> >and noticed that he basically swung them open and put in one front> pin.> >I remarked that it was strange that Kitfox hadn't come up with a auto>> >lock on the wings as forgeting that bolt could be big trouble! So> the> >bottom line here is that with my 20 years of building and flying> models> >and the experiences and insite from this group I would like to try> and> >get those wings to come off and on with ease and safety. If not I> will> >have to build a Kitfox or something and miss out on this great group> or> >pay for hangar space for a piet. So let me go get a few napkins and> >------.> >phil> >> >> >--> >Check out Crusader Toys @> >http://www.thegrid.net/crusader/> >> >> >--Check out Crusader Toys @http://www.thegrid.net/crusader/_______ ... __________

Original Posted By: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
>> Subject: wings>>>> >I thought I might better explain why I am working so hard on trying>> to>> >trailer my piet. I have a full wood shop in a building thats 60 x>> 120>> >and I only use the back third for the wood shop and the rest is just>> >there collecting dust. Its cold here in Northern Cal. about 7 months>>>> >out of the year so I don't envision flying it then,though that>> doesn't>> >seem to stop everybody! The airport is 7 miles away and if I pass 10>>>> >cars on the way the road is busy so I don't worry about getting>> >crunched! So while $50. hanger space is not to tough it would buy a>> lot>> >of gas!>> >I was watching a friend of my open his wings on his Kitfox the other>> day>> >and noticed that he basically swung them open and put in one front>> pin.>> >I remarked that it was strange that Kitfox hadn't come up with a auto>>>> >lock on the wings as forgeting that bolt could be big trouble! So>> the>> >bottom line here is that with my 20 years of building and flying>> models>> >and the experiences and insite from this group I would like to try>> and>> >get those wings to come off and on with ease and safety. If not I>> will>> >have to build a Kitfox or something and miss out on this great group>> or>> >pay for hangar space for a piet. So let me go get a few napkins and>> >------.>> >phil>> >>> >>> >-->> >Check out Crusader Toys @>> >http://www.thegrid.net/crusader/>> >>> >>> >>>>-->Check out Crusader Toys @>http://www.thegrid.net/crusader/>>_____ ... __________