Brodhead Pietenpol Association

Original Posted By: Brent Reed
Hello All,I'm a Sailplane pilot & owner who's always wanted to build a powerplane.Actually the glider stuff was my plan to learn to fly "right" and I'mhaving so much fun soaring that it's hard to stick with the plan.I'd like to build something simple, easy to rig (gotta fold them wings,I don't want another hanger payment just yet!) and capable of landing inmy neighor's field.Low and slow is perfect, later I'll go for something faster (AT-6?), butI need time to put the bucks away and more importantly total time to getthe experience. I've been flying long enough to lose *some* of thosedilusions of adaquacy.I have a good friend who advised me to build a Piet then build somethingfaster. That way I'll have a good airplane to fly early, a fast planeto play with for a while and a good airplane to fly when I retire. Makes sense.Okay, I like the design, how does it fly?Have you ever landed in a rough field?Have you ever spun your Piet?How long does it take you to rig your 3-piece wing?Inquiring minds wanna know.Good to meet you all, Larry L. Neal________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Dan Exstrom
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Hello>>Hi, My name is Chris Tracy (Sacramento CA.) and I just sent away (Monday)>for my piet plans (wife even gave her permission. She has no idea what she>has gotten her self into). Yes I know you have probably seen many a new>builder come and go but I'm only building parts of an airplane and who>knows some day I may end up with a completed Piet. No time frame no hurry,>( That's a lie. I look at Steve E.s pictures of him flying and dream of>the day that it will be me with the wind blowing through my hair) I have>been building and designing model airplanes (RC) for 6 years, reading>KITPLANES for 15 years, in love with airplanes ( older the better ) all my>life, 32 years, got my pilots license 10 years ago and finally graduated>from collage (kept taking classes until one day I realized I could>graduate) . I feel I have the skill needed to build one of these things>but there is all ways that little bit of fear when your butt will be IN the>thing and not just on the ground. So I really appreciate the pictures and>information on the web ( aircamper.org ) and all the help that all of you>have learned the had way (ie mistakes I hope to avoid). To this end I have>a couple of questions:>>1: I will be starting on the wing first because I hate to build wings and>figured I should build them while my motivation is high. Any suggestions>would be helpful. Things not to do.. Im building the 3 piece because my>garage is not long enough of a 1 piece wing.>>2: What is the weight difference in a Piet built out of Douglas Fir and one>built out of Spruce. Do most people use spruce? I have more time then>money right now but I also want build as light as possible and as safe as>possible.>>3: What type of glue? T-88? I'm used to balsa wood and super glue, great>stuff to bad you can't use it for real airplanes.>>4: By any chance is there any builders or flying Piets near Sacramento>CA.? I would love to talk to you and see your piet ( that sounds kind of>perverted, Hey let me see your piet).>>>Well any ways I'm sure I will have more questions when the plans come and>I start to build.>>Thank>>Chris>>________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 09:31:20 -0800

Original Posted By: nle97(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear folliesBill, Those 2" ash bearers are located to support the landing gear and thelower bolts to the gear mounting bracket go thruogh the ash wood. Wemade the split gear type as shown in the 1933 plans and this landing gearfit the way it was susposed to, but if the wooden landing gear cals fordifferent demensions I'd move the ash bearer to suit.John LangstonPipe Creek, TXnle97(at)juno.com________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: nle97(at)juno.com
Hi, My name is Chris Tracy (Sacramento CA.) and I just sent away (Monday)for my piet plans (wife even gave her permission. She has no idea what shehas gotten her self into). Yes I know you have probably seen many a newbuilder come and go but I'm only building parts of an airplane and whoknows some day I may end up with a completed Piet. No time frame no hurry,( That's a lie. I look at Steve E.s pictures of him flying and dream ofthe day that it will be me with the wind blowing through my hair) I havebeen building and designing model airplanes (RC) for 6 years, readingKITPLANES for 15 years, in love with airplanes ( older the better ) all mylife, 32 years, got my pilots license 10 years ago and finally graduatedfrom collage (kept taking classes until one day I realized I couldgraduate) . I feel I have the skill needed to build one of these thingsbut there is all ways that little bit of fear when your butt will be IN thething and not just on the ground. So I really appreciate the pictures andinformation on the web ( aircamper.org ) and all the help that all of youhave learned the had way (ie mistakes I hope to avoid). To this end I havea couple of questions:1: I will be starting on the wing first because I hate to build wings andfigured I should build them while my motivation is high. Any suggestionswould be helpful. Things not to do.. Im building the 3 piece because mygarage is not long enough of a 1 piece wing.2: What is the weight difference in a Piet built out of Douglas Fir and onebuilt out of Spruce. Do most people use spruce? I have more time thenmoney right now but I also want build as light as possible and as safe aspossible.3: What type of glue? T-88? I'm used to balsa wood and super glue, greatstuff to bad you can't use it for real airplanes.4: By any chance is there any builders or flying Piets near SacramentoCA.? I would love to talk to you and see your piet ( that sounds kind ofperverted, Hey let me see your piet).Well any ways I'm sure I will have more questions when the plans come andI start to build. Thank Chris________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "oil can"
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Hello>>>>>>>Good stuff snipped*>>>>More good stuff snipped.>>>>and I snipped a bit too>>>The above statement is simply exagerated. I built my piet exclusivelywith>>doug fir. Flying weight is 626 pounds. Total cost for the fir was lessthan>>$600. Spars, longerons, the whole works. 108 brd feet at about $5.75 per>>board ft. I estimate my increase in weight over spruce is less than15lbs,>>if that. Cost was about a quarter that of spruce.>>>>I hate to disagree with Steve but while I think he has the weight>difference in the ballpark the price difference in my area is>much less. I found the invoice from Western Aircraft. All>spruce for a long fuse 3 piece wing was $1578 + 94.42 shipping>to Rochester, NY. In order to get doug fir or western cedar>I would have had to mail order it unsorted. The only source>of doug fir in Rochester was the local Home Depot. None of>the lumber yards handled it nor did they have a source for>15' long pieces. Plus I didn't have to convince my wife>to help rip the long pieces (note: hubby + wife + tablesaw>ripping is a bad combination. I built a canoe that started>as 2x6's so I know this).>>If you are lucky enough to live in an area of the country that>has decent douglas fir then by all means get the manual and>learn how to sort it. Buy yourself a planer and a table saw>with the savings. For the rest of us - do the shopping and order>the wood from whoever has it and can get it to you at a reasonable>price.>>Dave>Building ribs in Retsof, NY>>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By:> Chris and Carrie Tracy [SMTP:ctracy(at)csus.edu]
Hi Chris,Welcome to the wonderful world of Pietenpols! It sounds like you have theright mindset and skillset to build an Air Camper. I'll try to help withyour questions, although as you'll find on this website, opinions varywidely.1. I also started with the wing first, and for the same reasons. I figuredif I can make it through the tedium of wing construction, the rest will beeasy. I built the three piece wing, with a couple of modifications to theoriginal design, taking advantage of materials that were not available toBernard in 1929. The changes I have made to date are: a. Full span piano hinges (MS20001) on the ailerons for increasedstrength and gap sealing b. Aluminum leading and trailing edges c. Laminated wing tips to increase stiffness, since they double ascompression struts d. 3/4" Sitka Spruce spars, with the rear spar routed down to 1/2"in the web area (saved 3.89 lbs.) e. Centersection span increased from 29" to 35" to provideincreased fuel capacity (up to 17 gallons) f. Circular cutout in centersection trailing edge to increasevisibility and ease of entry/egressI have used aircraft grade spruce throughout, and aircraft grade hardware.You can save some money shopping at Ace Hardware rather than Aircraft Spruceand Specialty, but the total will only be a couple of thousand dollars,which is spread out over several years. Why scrimp when your butt will bedepending on it?2. The weight difference between spruce and douglas fir is considerable -about 33% depending on moisture content. Douglas fir is stronger thanspruce, by about 30%, so the overall difference is not terribly significantif you reduce the size of the components to account for the greater strengthof the material. In actuality, it is difficult to make such changes, and ifall dimensions are kept the same, a spruce Piet will always be lighter thana fir one. Assuming the total weight of the wood structure is 200 lbs. andno dimensional changes are made, a fir Piet would weigh about 65 lbs. morethan a spruce one. Weight is very important in these planes. I also preferthe workability of spruce over fir - spruce doesn't split or splinter nearlyas readily as fir does.3. As with your second question, the type of glue is sure to spawn endlessdebate. I use Resorcinol, since it has been used to build wooden airplanessince the late 1930's with excellent results. It is the "standard" againstwhich other glues are measured, and I haven't found any glue that surpassesit for strength or durability. It does have some drawbacks. It cannot beused at temperatures below 70 F (when I'm working below that temperature, Iuse T-88). It has no gap filling properties, so your joints must fitprecisely (they should anyway - but again, when I've got a bit of gap in ajoint, I use T-88). And it must be clamped under pressure as it cures,requiring lots of nails (or staples). It is less messy than epoxy, andcleans up with water. You'll find that most builders use epoxy. If you douse epoxy, use a good aircraft grade like T-88. By all means, avoid quick"5-minute" epoxies for structural applications. They won't hold up overtime.4. Can't help you with this one. If you're ever in North Carolina, you'rewelcome to come take a look at my project.The only other advice I can give you is to buy a number of books, includingthe following: a. The Sportplane Builder b. Firewall Forward c. Sportplane Construction Techniques d. Tony Bingelis on Engines e. Wood Aircraft Building Techniques f. AC 43-13B Acceptable Methods, Aircraft Construction and RepairThe first 5 are available from the EAA. The last one is available from theFAA, or it can be ordered from Aircraft Spruce. it is the "Bible" on howairplanes shall be built.Also, if you're not a member of EAA, join. Check out their website atwww.EAA.org.Best of Luck Jack Phillips> -----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: "Doc Mosher"
Good stuff snipped*I have used aircraft grade spruce throughout, and aircraft grade hardware.You can save some money shopping at Ace Hardware rather than Aircraft Spruceand Specialty, but the total will only be a couple of thousand dollars,which is spread out over several years. Why scrimp when your butt will bedepending on it?2. The weight difference between spruce and douglas fir is considerable -about 33% depending on moisture content. Douglas fir is stronger thanspruce, by about 30%, so the overall difference is not terribly significantif you reduce the size of the components to account for the greater strengthof the material. In actuality, it is difficult to make such changes, and ifall dimensions are kept the same, a spruce Piet will always be lighter thana fir one. Assuming the total weight of the wood structure is 200 lbs. andno dimensional changes are made, a fir Piet would weigh about 65 lbs. morethan a spruce one. Weight is very important in these planes. I also preferthe workability of spruce over fir - spruce doesn't split or splinter nearlyas readily as fir does.More good stuff snipped.The above statement is simply exagerated. I built my piet exclusively withdoug fir. Flying weight is 626 pounds. Total cost for the fir was less than$600. Spars, longerons, the whole works. 108 brd feet at about $5.75 perboard ft. I estimate my increase in weight over spruce is less than 15lbs,if that. Cost was about a quarter that of spruce.For what it is (or isn't) worth,Steve E.________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "Mike Lund"
Welcome Chris!Be prepared for lots of fun and excitement. The piet people are great!Hope to see your ship flying one day...Stevee.________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Chris and Carrie Tracy
Hi ChrisYou will love building these planes (I am now on my 3rd one...an OriginalAircamper to plans about 10 years ago..(burned with all woodwork done)..aScout to plans a couple years ago (sold tailfeathers and materials becausethe offer was so good) and now this contraption.The more ya do, the better you will get at scrounging and saving $ on themand have a ball at it. and end up with a good looking airplabe to boot.First cheapie hint... If you want aluminum rather than wood or fabric coversfor the turtledecks, go to your local newspsper and get some press plates.They are .010 aluminum, not UV critical and around here 50 cents each. Theyare also great for making templates and patterns.Mike-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: shad bell

Original Posted By: Dave and Connie
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: HelloMy doug fir knowledge falls somewhere in the middle: Compared to spruce, doug fir weighs 24% more, while having 26% more strength than spruce.________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 19:01:22 -0600

Original Posted By: Dave and Connie
According to my builders log programme, for my ash and birch fuse, with alllumber and ply, I am now into this thing for $327.19 Canadian (about 4 centsUSD . Somehow I dont hink I am going to spend another $1200 (plus 45%exchange--say $2000) for the wings and tail materials.I am with Steve on the savings for using local sources. That money can payfor a nice new maple prop. say 72-76", on a soob EA-82 with a 2.21:1redrive--(another automotive boat anchor, but at least a 100hp one ;-)Mike-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Dave and Connie

Original Posted By: "mboynton(at)excite.com
Subject: Doug Fir, was RE: Pietenpol-List: HelloTo add to the great doug fir debate...For those of you having difficulty locating acceptable doug fir, tryavoiding the lumber yard and look for houses that supply the furniturebuilding or door building industries and trades. High quality, verticalgrain doug fir, is a staple in the door building industry, and is in vogueright now in furniture building.Stevee has seen the stuff I'm using. Bye the way, I paid $3.35 (usd) perboard foot for the stuff I bought.Mark BoyntonGilbert, AZ> > >> >> >Good stuff snipped*> >> >More good stuff snipped.> >> > and I snipped a bit too> > >The above statement is simply exagerated. I built my piet exclusivelywith> >doug fir. Flying weight is 626 pounds. Total cost for the fir was lessthan> >$600. Spars, longerons, the whole works. 108 brd feet at about $5.75per> >board ft. I estimate my increase in weight over spruce is less than15lbs,> >if that. Cost was about a quarter that of spruce.> >> > I hate to disagree with Steve but while I think he has the weight> difference in the ballpark the price difference in my area is> much less. I found the invoice from Western Aircraft. All > spruce for a long fuse 3 piece wing was $1578 + 94.42 shipping> to Rochester, NY. In order to get doug fir or western cedar> I would have had to mail order it unsorted. The only source> of doug fir in Rochester was the local Home Depot. None of > the lumber yards handled it nor did they have a source for > 15' long pieces. Plus I didn't have to convince my wife> to help rip the long pieces (note: hubby + wife + tablesaw> ripping is a bad combination. I built a canoe that started> as 2x6's so I know this).> > If you are lucky enough to live in an area of the country that> has decent douglas fir then by all means get the manual and> learn how to sort it. Buy yourself a planer and a table saw> with the savings. For the rest of us - do the shopping and order> the wood from whoever has it and can get it to you at a reasonable> price.> > Dave> Building ribs in Retsof, NY> > > > > Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by ExciteVisit http://freeworld.excite.com________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "Richard Navratil"
Subject: Doug Fir, was RE: Pietenpol-List: HelloTo add to the great doug fir debate...For those of you having difficulty locating acceptable doug fir, tryavoiding the lumber yard and look for houses that supply the furniturebuilding or door building industries and trades. High quality, verticalgrain doug fir, is a staple in the door building industry, and is in vogueright now in furniture building.Stevee has seen the stuff I'm using. Bye the way, I paid $3.35 (usd) perboard foot for the stuff I bought.Mark BoyntonGilbert, AZ> > >> >> >Good stuff snipped*> >> >More good stuff snipped.> >> > and I snipped a bit too> > >The above statement is simply exagerated. I built my piet exclusivelywith> >doug fir. Flying weight is 626 pounds. Total cost for the fir was lessthan> >$600. Spars, longerons, the whole works. 108 brd feet at about $5.75per> >board ft. I estimate my increase in weight over spruce is less than15lbs,> >if that. Cost was about a quarter that of spruce.> >> > I hate to disagree with Steve but while I think he has the weight> difference in the ballpark the price difference in my area is> much less. I found the invoice from Western Aircraft. All > spruce for a long fuse 3 piece wing was $1578 + 94.42 shipping> to Rochester, NY. In order to get doug fir or western cedar> I would have had to mail order it unsorted. The only source> of doug fir in Rochester was the local Home Depot. None of > the lumber yards handled it nor did they have a source for > 15' long pieces. Plus I didn't have to convince my wife> to help rip the long pieces (note: hubby + wife + tablesaw> ripping is a bad combination. I built a canoe that started> as 2x6's so I know this).> > If you are lucky enough to live in an area of the country that> has decent douglas fir then by all means get the manual and> learn how to sort it. Buy yourself a planer and a table saw> with the savings. For the rest of us - do the shopping and order> the wood from whoever has it and can get it to you at a reasonable> price.> > Dave> Building ribs in Retsof, NY> > > > > Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by ExciteVisit http://freeworld.excite.com________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Rodger & Betty
Subject: Re: Doug Fir, etc,etc,etc.....was RE: Pietenpol-List: Hello>>Hi List.....>>Allow me to toss another question into wringer.... I ran across some>excellent Juniper a couple of months back at a custom yacht builder. The>stuff is beautiful, very strait tight grained and light. I did some tests>and found it to be stronger and lighter than a couple of pieces a spruce>that came from a friends kit. I've been giving it some consideration and>wonder if anyone has built a Piet with it before.>>Any input to help this novice out would be appreciated>>Thanks>>Eric>>>>From: "mboynton(at)excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.31a>>201-229-119-114) with SMTP for" ;>>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>>Subject: Doug Fir, was RE: Pietenpol-List: Hello>>Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 15:56:18 -0800 (PST)>>>>vM.4.01.02.31a 201-229-119-114) with SMTP for>>;>>>>To add to the great doug fir debate...>>>>For those of you having difficulty locating acceptable doug fir, try>>avoiding the lumber yard and look for houses that supply the furniture>>building or door building industries and trades. High quality, vertical>>grain doug fir, is a staple in the door building industry, and is in vogue>>right now in furniture building.>>>>Stevee has seen the stuff I'm using. Bye the way, I paid $3.35 (usd) per>>board foot for the stuff I bought.>>>>>>Mark Boynton>>Gilbert, AZ>>>>>>>> >>> > >>> > >>> > >Good stuff snipped*>> > >>> > >More good stuff snipped.>> > >>> >>> > and I snipped a bit too>> >>> > >The above statement is simply exagerated. I built my pietexclusively>>with>> > >doug fir. Flying weight is 626 pounds. Total cost for the fir was>>less>>than>> > >$600. Spars, longerons, the whole works. 108 brd feet at about $5.75>>per>> > >board ft. I estimate my increase in weight over spruce is less than>>15lbs,>> > >if that. Cost was about a quarter that of spruce.>> > >>> >>> > I hate to disagree with Steve but while I think he has the weight>> > difference in the ballpark the price difference in my area is>> > much less. I found the invoice from Western Aircraft. All>> > spruce for a long fuse 3 piece wing was $1578 + 94.42 shipping>> > to Rochester, NY. In order to get doug fir or western cedar>> > I would have had to mail order it unsorted. The only source>> > of doug fir in Rochester was the local Home Depot. None of>> > the lumber yards handled it nor did they have a source for>> > 15' long pieces. Plus I didn't have to convince my wife>> > to help rip the long pieces (note: hubby + wife + tablesaw>> > ripping is a bad combination. I built a canoe that started>> > as 2x6's so I know this).>> >>> > If you are lucky enough to live in an area of the country that>> > has decent douglas fir then by all means get the manual and>> > learn how to sort it. Buy yourself a planer and a table saw>> > with the savings. For the rest of us - do the shopping and order>> > the wood from whoever has it and can get it to you at a reasonable>> > price.>> >>> > Dave>> > Building ribs in Retsof, NY>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>>>Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite>>Visit http://freeworld.excite.com>>>>>>________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 20:35:40 -0600

Original Posted By: "Eric Ingraham"
Hi List.....Allow me to toss another question into wringer.... I ran across some excellent Juniper a couple of months back at a custom yacht builder. The stuff is beautiful, very strait tight grained and light. I did some tests and found it to be stronger and lighter than a couple of pieces a spruce that came from a friends kit. I've been giving it some consideration and wonder if anyone has built a Piet with it before.Any input to help this novice out would be appreciatedThanksEric>From: "mboynton(at)excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.31a >201-229-119-114) with SMTP for" ;>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>Subject: Doug Fir, was RE: Pietenpol-List: Hello>Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 15:56:18 -0800 (PST)>>vM.4.01.02.31a 201-229-119-114) with SMTP for >;>>To add to the great doug fir debate...>>For those of you having difficulty locating acceptable doug fir, try>avoiding the lumber yard and look for houses that supply the furniture>building or door building industries and trades. High quality, vertical>grain doug fir, is a staple in the door building industry, and is in vogue>right now in furniture building.>>Stevee has seen the stuff I'm using. Bye the way, I paid $3.35 (usd) per>board foot for the stuff I bought.>>>Mark Boynton>Gilbert, AZ>>>> >> > >> > >> > >Good stuff snipped*> > >> > >More good stuff snipped.> > >> >> > and I snipped a bit too> >> > >The above statement is simply exagerated. I built my piet exclusively>with> > >doug fir. Flying weight is 626 pounds. Total cost for the fir was >less>than> > >$600. Spars, longerons, the whole works. 108 brd feet at about $5.75>per> > >board ft. I estimate my increase in weight over spruce is less than>15lbs,> > >if that. Cost was about a quarter that of spruce.> > >> >> > I hate to disagree with Steve but while I think he has the weight> > difference in the ballpark the price difference in my area is> > much less. I found the invoice from Western Aircraft. All> > spruce for a long fuse 3 piece wing was $1578 + 94.42 shipping> > to Rochester, NY. In order to get doug fir or western cedar> > I would have had to mail order it unsorted. The only source> > of doug fir in Rochester was the local Home Depot. None of> > the lumber yards handled it nor did they have a source for> > 15' long pieces. Plus I didn't have to convince my wife> > to help rip the long pieces (note: hubby + wife + tablesaw> > ripping is a bad combination. I built a canoe that started> > as 2x6's so I know this).> >> > If you are lucky enough to live in an area of the country that> > has decent douglas fir then by all means get the manual and> > learn how to sort it. Buy yourself a planer and a table saw> > with the savings. For the rest of us - do the shopping and order> > the wood from whoever has it and can get it to you at a reasonable> > price.> >> > Dave> > Building ribs in Retsof, NY> >> >> >> >> >>>>Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite>Visit http://freeworld.excite.com>>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "Cy Galley"
Hi List.....Allow me to toss another question into wringer.... I ran across some excellent Juniper a couple of months back at a custom yacht builder. The stuff is beautiful, very strait tight grained and light. I did some tests and found it to be stronger and lighter than a couple of pieces a spruce that came from a friends kit. I've been giving it some consideration and wonder if anyone has built a Piet with it before.Any input to help this novice out would be appreciatedThanksEric>From: "mboynton(at)excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.31a >201-229-119-114) with SMTP for" ;>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>Subject: Doug Fir, was RE: Pietenpol-List: Hello>Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 15:56:18 -0800 (PST)>>vM.4.01.02.31a 201-229-119-114) with SMTP for >;>>To add to the great doug fir debate...>>For those of you having difficulty locating acceptable doug fir, try>avoiding the lumber yard and look for houses that supply the furniture>building or door building industries and trades. High quality, vertical>grain doug fir, is a staple in the door building industry, and is in vogue>right now in furniture building.>>Stevee has seen the stuff I'm using. Bye the way, I paid $3.35 (usd) per>board foot for the stuff I bought.>>>Mark Boynton>Gilbert, AZ>>>> >> > >> > >> > >Good stuff snipped*> > >> > >More good stuff snipped.> > >> >> > and I snipped a bit too> >> > >The above statement is simply exagerated. I built my piet exclusively>with> > >doug fir. Flying weight is 626 pounds. Total cost for the fir was >less>than> > >$600. Spars, longerons, the whole works. 108 brd feet at about $5.75>per> > >board ft. I estimate my increase in weight over spruce is less than>15lbs,> > >if that. Cost was about a quarter that of spruce.> > >> >> > I hate to disagree with Steve but while I think he has the weight> > difference in the ballpark the price difference in my area is> > much less. I found the invoice from Western Aircraft. All> > spruce for a long fuse 3 piece wing was $1578 + 94.42 shipping> > to Rochester, NY. In order to get doug fir or western cedar> > I would have had to mail order it unsorted. The only source> > of doug fir in Rochester was the local Home Depot. None of> > the lumber yards handled it nor did they have a source for> > 15' long pieces. Plus I didn't have to convince my wife> > to help rip the long pieces (note: hubby + wife + tablesaw> > ripping is a bad combination. I built a canoe that started> > as 2x6's so I know this).> >> > If you are lucky enough to live in an area of the country that> > has decent douglas fir then by all means get the manual and> > learn how to sort it. Buy yourself a planer and a table saw> > with the savings. For the rest of us - do the shopping and order> > the wood from whoever has it and can get it to you at a reasonable> > price.> >> > Dave> > Building ribs in Retsof, NY> >> >> >> >> >>>>Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite>Visit http://freeworld.excite.com>>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Eric Ingraham
Why not check our the various woods and properties at...http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/FPLGT ... r113.htmCy Galley - Editor, B-C Contact!(Click here to visit our Club site at http://www.bellanca-championclub.com)-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Greg Cardinal
I could host it. How about scanned to OCR to text files with imbeddedgraphics??? I could probably do that also.. Wouldn't be so big that way.Greg----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Greg Yotz"
02/09/2001 11:16:00 AMHello Listfolk,I wanted to briefly introduce myself & my interest in the list. My name isKip Gardner; I am 42 years old, live in Norfolk, VA, make my living as anenvironmental research scientist, and am in the early (i.e. planning)stages of building a Pietenpol. This past summer I visited Andrewpietenpol in River Falls, saw 'The Last Original' and purchased plans. Thispast Christmas I visited William Wynne in Daytona Beach & learned about hisCorvair conversion, which is my intended power choice. Right now I am inthe process of relocating my family to the Akron, OH area, hopefully to becompleted by this summer, at which point I will finally have the shop spaceto begin construction on my plane!I have had a lifelong interest in aviation, but up to now my personalexperience has been limited to R/C modeling, going to airshows & anoccasional ride in someone else's plane. I became interested in the Pietabout 5 years ago when I saw an article in KitPlanes & realized that herewas something other than an ultralight that I could affordably build &fly. Since then, marriage & Baby got first priority, but now things are'loosening up' a little & my wife is 'on board' if not yet entirelyenthusiastic about me taking on this project (suggesting a move back to herhome in OH went a long way towards that process!).Anyway, I'm glad to be on the list & hope that I will both learn &contribute to the discussion.My first question to the list:I saw a posting on the BPA website by a guy named Gary (Garry?) Price whowas running something called the 'Yesterday's Wings Aero Museum' in NH. Healso sell plans for several modifications to the basic plans, includingno-gap ailerons, an improved 3-piece wing & steerable tailwheel assembly.Unfortunately, the phone # he had in the posting (which was in 1995)doesn't seem to be in service any longer & the Phone Co. had no listingfor Gary or his museum in NH. Does anyone on the list know how to contacthim & has anyone used his plans in constructing their planes? I wouls liketo purcahse them for him if I can find him. Thanks!Regards,Kip Gardner, EAA #639841Laboratory ManagerODU Dept. of Ocean, Earth & Atmospheric Sciences4600 Elkhorn AvenueNorfolk, VA 23529(757)683-5654Bumper Sticker of the Week:(Philosophy of the New Administration?)"Earth First! (We'll Trash the Other Planets Later)"________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: JOEL CARROLL

Original Posted By: JOEL CARROLL

Original Posted By: Michael D Cuy

Original Posted By: "Richard Navratil"
Subject: Pietenpol-List: HelloSUB_HELLO 2.46 SUB_HELLO Subject starts with "Hello"Im another Piet producer, hopefully by sept of 05 she'll be close to go, thanks...Bob________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: HelloIn a message dated 12/21/04 11:18:05 AM Central Standard Time, Plyn4par(at)wmconnect.com writes:>Bob,Please tell us about your project, and yourself.Chuck GantzerWichita KSNX770CGPietenpols Forever !!________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By:> > Chris and Carrie Tracy [SMTP:ctracy(at)csus.edu]
> > > Hi Chris,> > Welcome to the wonderful world of Pietenpols! It sounds like you havethe> right mindset and skillset to build an Air Camper. I'll try to help with> your questions, although as you'll find on this website, opinions vary> widely.> > 1. I also started with the wing first, and for the same reasons. Ifigured> if I can make it through the tedium of wing construction, the rest willbe> easy. I built the three piece wing, with a couple of modifications tothe> original design, taking advantage of materials that were not available to> Bernard in 1929. The changes I have made to date are:> a. Full span piano hinges (MS20001) on the ailerons forincreased> strength and gap sealing> b. Aluminum leading and trailing edges> c. Laminated wing tips to increase stiffness, since they doubleas> compression struts> d. 3/4" Sitka Spruce spars, with the rear spar routed down to1/2"> in the web area (saved 3.89 lbs.)> e. Centersection span increased from 29" to 35" to provide> increased fuel capacity (up to 17 gallons)> f. Circular cutout in centersection trailing edge to increase> visibility and ease of entry/egress> > I have used aircraft grade spruce throughout, and aircraft gradehardware.> You can save some money shopping at Ace Hardware rather than AircraftSpruce> and Specialty, but the total will only be a couple of thousand dollars,> which is spread out over several years. Why scrimp when your butt willbe> depending on it?> > 2. The weight difference between spruce and douglas fir is considerable> about 33% depending on moisture content. Douglas fir is stronger than> spruce, by about 30%, so the overall difference is not terriblysignificant> if you reduce the size of the components to account for the greaterstrength> of the material. In actuality, it is difficult to make such changes, andif> all dimensions are kept the same, a spruce Piet will always be lighterthan> a fir one. Assuming the total weight of the wood structure is 200 lbs.and> no dimensional changes are made, a fir Piet would weigh about 65 lbs.more> than a spruce one. Weight is very important in these planes. I alsoprefer> the workability of spruce over fir - spruce doesn't split or splinternearly> as readily as fir does.> > 3. As with your second question, the type of glue is sure to spawnendless> debate. I use Resorcinol, since it has been used to build woodenairplanes> since the late 1930's with excellent results. It is the "standard"against> which other glues are measured, and I haven't found any glue thatsurpasses> it for strength or durability. It does have some drawbacks. It cannotbe> used at temperatures below 70 F (when I'm working below that temperature,I> use T-88). It has no gap filling properties, so your joints must fit> precisely (they should anyway - but again, when I've got a bit of gap ina> joint, I use T-88). And it must be clamped under pressure as it cures,> requiring lots of nails (or staples). It is less messy than epoxy, and> cleans up with water. You'll find that most builders use epoxy. If youdo> use epoxy, use a good aircraft grade like T-88. By all means, avoidquick> "5-minute" epoxies for structural applications. They won't hold up over> time.> > 4. Can't help you with this one. If you're ever in North Carolina,you're> welcome to come take a look at my project.> > The only other advice I can give you is to buy a number of books,including> the following:> a. The Sportplane Builder> b. Firewall Forward> c. Sportplane Construction Techniques> d. Tony Bingelis on Engines> e. Wood Aircraft Building Techniques> f. AC 43-13B Acceptable Methods, Aircraft Construction andRepair> > The first 5 are available from the EAA. The last one is available fromthe> FAA, or it can be ordered from Aircraft Spruce. it is the "Bible" on how> airplanes shall be built.> > Also, if you're not a member of EAA, join. Check out their website at> www.EAA.org.> > Best of Luck> > Jack Phillips> > > -----Original Message-----

Original Posted By:>> > Chris and Carrie Tracy [SMTP:ctracy(at)csus.edu]
>>>>>>> Hi Chris,>>>> Welcome to the wonderful world of Pietenpols! It sounds like you have>the>> right mindset and skillset to build an Air Camper. I'll try to help with>> your questions, although as you'll find on this website, opinions vary>> widely.>>>> 1. I also started with the wing first, and for the same reasons. I>figured>> if I can make it through the tedium of wing construction, the rest will>be>> easy. I built the three piece wing, with a couple of modifications to>the>> original design, taking advantage of materials that were not available to>> Bernard in 1929. The changes I have made to date are:>> a. Full span piano hinges (MS20001) on the ailerons for>increased>> strength and gap sealing>> b. Aluminum leading and trailing edges>> c. Laminated wing tips to increase stiffness, since they double>as>> compression struts>> d. 3/4" Sitka Spruce spars, with the rear spar routed down to>1/2">> in the web area (saved 3.89 lbs.)>> e. Centersection span increased from 29" to 35" to provide>> increased fuel capacity (up to 17 gallons)>> f. Circular cutout in centersection trailing edge to increase>> visibility and ease of entry/egress>>>> I have used aircraft grade spruce throughout, and aircraft grade>hardware.>> You can save some money shopping at Ace Hardware rather than Aircraft>Spruce>> and Specialty, but the total will only be a couple of thousand dollars,>> which is spread out over several years. Why scrimp when your butt will>be>> depending on it?>>>> 2. The weight difference between spruce and douglas fir is considerable>->> about 33% depending on moisture content. Douglas fir is stronger than>> spruce, by about 30%, so the overall difference is not terribly>significant>> if you reduce the size of the components to account for the greater>strength>> of the material. In actuality, it is difficult to make such changes, and>if>> all dimensions are kept the same, a spruce Piet will always be lighter>than>> a fir one. Assuming the total weight of the wood structure is 200 lbs.>and>> no dimensional changes are made, a fir Piet would weigh about 65 lbs.>more>> than a spruce one. Weight is very important in these planes. I also>prefer>> the workability of spruce over fir - spruce doesn't split or splinter>nearly>> as readily as fir does.>>>> 3. As with your second question, the type of glue is sure to spawn>endless>> debate. I use Resorcinol, since it has been used to build wooden>airplanes>> since the late 1930's with excellent results. It is the "standard">against>> which other glues are measured, and I haven't found any glue that>surpasses>> it for strength or durability. It does have some drawbacks. It cannot>be>> used at temperatures below 70 F (when I'm working below that temperature,>I>> use T-88). It has no gap filling properties, so your joints must fit>> precisely (they should anyway - but again, when I've got a bit of gap in>a>> joint, I use T-88). And it must be clamped under pressure as it cures,>> requiring lots of nails (or staples). It is less messy than epoxy, and>> cleans up with water. You'll find that most builders use epoxy. If you>do>> use epoxy, use a good aircraft grade like T-88. By all means, avoid>quick>> "5-minute" epoxies for structural applications. They won't hold up over>> time.>>>> 4. Can't help you with this one. If you're ever in North Carolina,>you're>> welcome to come take a look at my project.>>>> The only other advice I can give you is to buy a number of books,>including>> the following:>> a. The Sportplane Builder>> b. Firewall Forward>> c. Sportplane Construction Techniques>> d. Tony Bingelis on Engines>> e. Wood Aircraft Building Techniques>> f. AC 43-13B Acceptable Methods, Aircraft Construction and>Repair>>>> The first 5 are available from the EAA. The last one is available from>the>> FAA, or it can be ordered from Aircraft Spruce. it is the "Bible" on how>> airplanes shall be built.>>>> Also, if you're not a member of EAA, join. Check out their website at>> www.EAA.org.>>>> Best of Luck>>>> Jack Phillips>>>> > -----Original Message-----