Brodhead Pietenpol Association

Original Posted By: mikek(at)intex.net (Michael King)
:> When you say the PIET is the only plane where> the approach speed is faster than its cruise speed,> are you talking about the true Pietenpol or a 80 hp> Cont. in a GN-1?>> thanks.........>> Mike> Dallas>Well that depend fully upon weather you crouch down in the cockpit during final and/or keep your elbows out in the wind during cruise.Sorry, I digressThis plane is too much fun to get too serious about!Mine is back in the garage after 10 hours of flying. I came up with a short list of about 18 things that I found needed to be done before more flights. It also gives me something to tinker on during the late winter this year. I went flying 5-6 days in January, so far Feb has been poor weather for flying.Stevee________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Ted Brousseau
Steve,Tell me about your plane. It is a PIET or a GN-1?Also, where do you keep it? Here in Dallas we havehad a few good days this month.I just bought GN-1 and have never flown it. Tell meabout the handling qualities of plane.Thanks.......Mike>>:>> When you say the PIET is the only plane where>> the approach speed is faster than its cruise speed,>> are you talking about the true Pietenpol or a 80 hp>> Cont. in a GN-1?>>>> thanks.........>>>> Mike>> Dallas>>>>Well that depend fully upon weather you crouch down in the cockpit during >final and/or keep your elbows out in the wind during cruise.>>Sorry, I digress>>This plane is too much fun to get too serious about!>>Mine is back in the garage after 10 hours of flying. I came up with a >short list of about 18 things that I found needed to be done before more >flights. It also gives me something to tinker on during the late winter >this year. I went flying 5-6 days in January, so far Feb has been poor >weather for flying.>>Stevee>>-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* ring: 214.905.9299 fax: 214.905-1438 zap: mikek(at)intex.net web site: www.comedy-wire.com________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Graham Hansen
Steve is absolutely right. I use to do my approaches with my elbows out andcouldn't figure out why I ran out of elevator - even with power on. Then,one day it was cold (around 70) and I was in a tee shirt. I flew with myelbows tucked inside the cockpit. Viola!! A beautiful landing. Thoseelbows really affect the performance a lot more than you might imagine.But, when you want to sneak up behind a hawk keep them out.Ted Brousseau GN1/65Naples Florida>>>Well that depend fully upon weather you crouch down in the cockpit during >final and/or keep your elbows out in the wind during cruise.>>Sorry, I digress>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By:> Ted Brousseau
Hi Ted.It seems you survived the storm OK, and I hope yourairplanes did so as well.Pietenpols do indeed have some interesting characteristicsdue to the fact that the horizontal tail area is bordering onthe too-small side---and about half of that is movable. Allfour different Piets I have flown over the years seem to haveneutral stability in pitch coupled with very effective elevators.On mine I have a center section flap for easier entry/egressand it is held in trail position by a pair of spring clips. Whenin flight, one can make the nose pitch down rather abruptlyby merely lifting the trailing edge an inch or so. Likely this disturbs airflow over the horizontal tail, reducing the download on it and causing the nose to pitch down. At least that'smy theory.Perhaps your elbows out in the slipstream are doing the samething, even to the point of rendering the elevators less effec-tive. I have never tried landing mine, or any other with my elbows out, so don't know if I would experience the same phenomenon.I do know that, in cruise, elbows in the breeze have no noticeable effect---probably due to a faster slipstream in cruise as comparedto that when landing.One could, I suppose, increase the tail area (both horizontal and vertical) to achieve better stability in pitch and yaw, but not to theextent seen on a Piper PA15/17 Vagabond. However, this is not really necessary and the design is fine as is.As someone pointed out recently, the old Piet does have a steeppower-off approach due to its high drag. But the ones I have flown have a reasonable approach angle if a touch of power is used, andabout 60 to 65 mph is maintained (the 65 hp ones cruised about75 to 80 mph. and my 85 hp a/c cruises close to 85 mph, dependingon the propeller used). One can practically dive at the runway at thecruising speed without floating very far before touching down; speeddecays rapidly after the flair. Almost as good as having dive brakes!Anyway, glad to see you are still alive.Graham

Original Posted By: Steve Eldredge
This just proves what a "high performance" plan the Piet is! I've heard of"speed brakes" on jet fighters before...works for me!Jim Wrightjgw(at)skynet.be-----Original Message----->From: Ted Brousseau Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 05:10Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cruise and Approach speeds RE: was GN-1>Steve is absolutely right. I use to do my approaches with my elbows outand>couldn't figure out why I ran out of elevator - even with power on. Then,>one day it was cold (around 70) and I was in a tee shirt. I flew with my>elbows tucked inside the cockpit. Viola!! A beautiful landing. Those>elbows really affect the performance a lot more than you might imagine.>But, when you want to sneak up behind a hawk keep them out.>>Ted Brousseau>GN1/65>Naples Florida>>>>>>>Well that depend fully upon weather you crouch down in the cockpit during>>final and/or keep your elbows out in the wind during cruise.>>>>Sorry, I digress>>>>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "McNarry, John"
I built Bernies piet from Hoopman plans. Short fuse, a-65. It was built in a one car garage here in Provo Utah. Weather has been pretty mild. I can comfortably fly as low as 45 degrees F. I don't have any experience with the GN-1, other than talking to Grega once on the phone and studying his plans. As others mentioned mine also is pitch sensitive and neutral. Ailerons are responsive. I have a full length piano hinge on my ailerons, no gap seals so far on the tail. Take off is brisk and I climb steeply at 55mph. Climb rate is about 400 fpm at 4500' Cant wait to see what it will do at sea level. (wonder if I will ever find out, given the slow cruise speed) All in all: Inexpensive, antique, open cockpit fun flying airplane.SteveeOn Wednesday, February 18, 1998 9:18 AM, Michael King [SMTP:mikek(at)intex.net] wrote:> Steve,>> Tell me about your plane. It is a PIET or a GN-1?> Also, where do you keep it? Here in Dallas we have> had a few good days this month.>> I just bought GN-1 and have never flown it. Tell me> about the handling qualities of plane.>> Thanks.......>> Mike>>> >> >:> >> When you say the PIET is the only plane where> >> the approach speed is faster than its cruise speed,> >> are you talking about the true Pietenpol or a 80 hp> >> Cont. in a GN-1?> >>> >> thanks.........> >>> >> Mike> >> Dallas> >>> >> >Well that depend fully upon weather you crouch down in the cockpit during> >final and/or keep your elbows out in the wind during cruise.> >> >Sorry, I digress> >> >This plane is too much fun to get too serious about!> >> >Mine is back in the garage after 10 hours of flying. I came up with a> >short list of about 18 things that I found needed to be done before more > >flights. It also gives me something to tinker on during the late winter > >this year. I went flying 5-6 days in January, so far Feb has been poor> >weather for flying.> >> >Stevee> >> >> -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*> Mike King THE COMEDY WIRE Dallas, Tx.> ring: 214.905.9299 fax: 214.905-1438>> zap: mikek(at)intex.net> web site: www.comedy-wire.com> -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Steve Eldredge
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Original Posted By: Ted Brousseau
>> Stevee: You mentioned that the ailerons are responsive with the the> piano hinge. Does it have much adverse yaw? I have a GN-1 that was> started before I knew better. Most of what I've built lately has been> a blend of Bernie's and Gregas Ideas. I sure don't like the GN> aileron hinge and have been considering other hinge designs. Once the> aileron portion is cut from the ribs that's it! I don't want to> build a second set. One more question what are your W/B #s and what> did you use as a datum?>> John Mc>>The aircamper is definately a rudder airplane. You need rudder to be coordinated. Somehow Friese (sp) type ailerons on this airplane just wouldn't fit the era, but that said you won't notice a great deal more adverse yaw than in a spam can. Maybe because your going slower I dunno. From what I have read closing the gap on the aileron is the important thing so that your not leaking air from the bottom surface causing sluggish roll contol. I hinged my ailerons from the top surface. If I were to do it again I would move the hinge line down an inch or so. It allows for easier construction and bolt access. Somebody's plans show it that way.On W/B.I used the wing le as the datum although it doesn't matter what you use. My gear axles are about .5 inches behind the le. I moved my wing back 5.75 inches from vertical to offset the light continental weight is 626lbs and cg is 19.5 inches from the LE with my larger than wanted butt ballast in the rear cockpit.Stevee________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By:>> Ted Brousseau
Graham,Yes I survived the storms. It seems El Nino is kicking them up about once aweek. I haven't got a hangar yet. Didn't think it would be a problemduring the winter, since we seldom get rain in the winter - until this year.Hail and tornados have been forecast with each storm. We have been missedby about 15 miles to the south and north. I am keeping my fingers crossedthat I get through this and get a hangar soon.I went flying yesterday and watched a beautiful sunset. I misspoke. I onlyfly with my left elbow out. I keep my stick holding elbow inside. So,maybe it is the offsetting drag that is affecting the landings. The pitot cover stuck yesterday and I didn't have any airspeed indicated.No problem until the landing. Brought it in at what I thought was an okspeed. Knew I was in trouble when I flared at 1 foot. I ran out ofelevator and just hung on hoping for the best. Darn if it wasn't the best 3point landing I have ever made. It just plopped down and didn't bounce andinch. Couldn't believe it. Too close to the edge though. I think I'll nottry for "perfect" 3 point landings in the piet again. I agree with you,keep a little power on until you flare.Keep warm,Ted>Hi Ted.>>It seems you survived the storm OK, and I hope your>airplanes did so as well.>>Pietenpols do indeed have some interesting characteristics>due to the fact that the horizontal tail area is bordering on>the too-small side---and about half of that is movable. All>four different Piets I have flown over the years seem to have>neutral stability in pitch coupled with very effective elevators.>On mine I have a center section flap for easier entry/egress>and it is held in trail position by a pair of spring clips. When>in flight, one can make the nose pitch down rather abruptly>by merely lifting the trailing edge an inch or so. Likely this >disturbs airflow over the horizontal tail, reducing the down>load on it and causing the nose to pitch down. At least that's>my theory.>>Perhaps your elbows out in the slipstream are doing the same>thing, even to the point of rendering the elevators less effec->tive. I have never tried landing mine, or any other with my elbows >out, so don't know if I would experience the same phenomenon.>I do know that, in cruise, elbows in the breeze have no noticeable >effect---probably due to a faster slipstream in cruise as compared>to that when landing.>>One could, I suppose, increase the tail area (both horizontal and >vertical) to achieve better stability in pitch and yaw, but not to the>extent seen on a Piper PA15/17 Vagabond. However, this is not >really necessary and the design is fine as is.>>As someone pointed out recently, the old Piet does have a steep>power-off approach due to its high drag. But the ones I have flown >have a reasonable approach angle if a touch of power is used, and>about 60 to 65 mph is maintained (the 65 hp ones cruised about>75 to 80 mph. and my 85 hp a/c cruises close to 85 mph, depending>on the propeller used). One can practically dive at the runway at the>cruising speed without floating very far before touching down; speed>decays rapidly after the flair. Almost as good as having dive brakes!>>Anyway, glad to see you are still alive.>>Graham >>----------

Original Posted By: rdecosta(at)autoeurope.com (Richard DeCosta)
On Thursday, February 19, 1998 9:09 PM, Ted Brousseau [SMTP:nfn00979(at)naples.net] wrote:>> The pitot cover stuck yesterday and I didn't have any airspeed indicated.> No problem until the landing. Brought it in at what I thought was an ok> speed. Knew I was in trouble when I flared at 1 foot. I ran out of> elevator and just hung on hoping for the best. Darn if it wasn't the best 3> point landing I have ever made. It just plopped down and didn't bounce and> inch. Couldn't believe it. Too close to the edge though. I think I'll not> try for "perfect" 3 point landings in the piet again. I agree with you,> keep a little power on until you flare.>> Keep warm,>> Ted>Ted, with the exception of having the pitot cover stuck, you describe exactly what my TW instructor tells me every landing. If I don't full stall within 1 foot and "arrive" with a firm bump on all three, I get a whack from the back seat. I have only about 30 TW landings so far, so I still don't get it quite right, but I know when I do. Not quite sure what you mean by "too close to the edge" You would have made my 18000 hour old-salt taid dragger instructor crack a grin. "by gum I think he's got it..." BTW I too keep a little power on during the approach to flatten the glide, that too would earn a swat from the back however in the super cub I trained in. Non of this Cessna-driver-keep-it-at-1500-rpm for him boy no sirreee. Now I get the back seat. Oh yeah!Steve (first time I've really enjoyed back seat drivers) Eldredge________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Steve Eldredge[SMTP:steve(at)byu.edu]
I seem to make the best landings when I get full aft stick at the timeof flare. It also should give the shortest roll out - good for shortgrass fields. If you need a little more speed to flare then just putthe nose down a little in the glide. The idea of carrying power whenlanding has never made sense to me. What if you have an engine out onapproach? No choice but to land short! I don't think the piet has ahigh sink rate. It doesn't float like some tail draggers do, but I haveflown some that sink a LOT faster. But isn't the idea to lose altitude? One the other hand, if you are in a power off glide and need toincrease sink a little to adjust the glide then slip it a little; itslips very nicely. (THAT will probably get some comments!)Perhaps I have a bias from doing most of my flying in and around themountians of western Oregon and Washington. I flew for several yearsfrom a one ended strip with trees at one end (the approach end anddeparture end) and a hill at the other. Where I live now I could glidefor 50 miles in the approach with out a problem.Just my two cents!Jim________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: TLC62770(at)aol.com
>>> Not quite sure what >you mean by "too close to the edge" Steve,Let me try to explain. In my Cessna 140 I decrease power, lift the nose andslow down. That results in an approach angle of, lets say 20 degrees. Ikeep that approach until I am a foot off the ground and then gently pullback on the wheel and bleed off speed trying to keep the same distance offthe runway until I run out of elevator and start "gently" sinking to therunway in a 3 point stance.In the Piet, I decrease power, push the nose down and try to keep the speedup to 65. I feel like a dive bomber. This results in an approach angle of,lets say 45 degrees. When 1 foot off the runway I quickly pull back on thestick to keep from digging a hole in the runway. I feel like I am "tooclose to the edge" because I have used up all the elevator and the Piet isstill aimed at the runway. I would rather be "gently" sinking or have some"spare" elevator. So, I guess it is the feeling for the need for the spareelevator that makes me feel like I am at the edge of not being in control.In fact, when you stall to land you are no longer in control. In a gentlysinking plane it doesn't bother me to turn that control over to the plane,but in a "dive bomber" I guess I am less willing to turn it over...I hope those words convey my feelings. Perhaps our Piet is rigged wrong andthis sinking feeling can be fixed?Mind you, I am not complaining. I have never had so much fun in my 34 yearsof flying as I am having in the Piet. Just a challenge.Ted________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Jim Wright
> > Steve is absolutely right. I use to do my approaches with my elbows outand> couldn't figure out why I ran out of elevator - even with power on. Then,> one day it was cold (around 70) and I was in a tee shirt. I flew with my> elbows tucked inside the cockpit. Viola!! A beautiful landing. Those> elbows really affect the performance a lot more than you might imagine.> But, when you want to sneak up behind a hawk keep them out.> > Ted Brousseau > GN1/65> Naples Florida> > >> >> >Well that depend fully upon weather you crouch down in the cockpitduring > >final and/or keep your elbows out in the wind during cruise.> >> >Sorry, I digress> >________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Steve Eldredge
>> >> Steve is absolutely right. I use to do my approaches with my elbows out>and>> couldn't figure out why I ran out of elevator - even with power on. >Then,>> one day it was cold (around 70) and I was in a tee shirt. I flew with my>> elbows tucked inside the cockpit. Viola!! A beautiful landing. Those>> elbows really affect the performance a lot more than you might imagine.>> But, when you want to sneak up behind a hawk keep them out.>> >> Ted Brousseau >> GN1/65>> Naples Florida>> >> >>> >>> >Well that depend fully upon weather you crouch down in the cockpit>during >> >final and/or keep your elbows out in the wind during cruise.>> >>> >Sorry, I digress>> >>>________________________________________________________________________________