Brodhead Pietenpol Association

Original Posted By: "McNarry, John"
Subject: Pietenpol-List: glues, epoxies.I have been using T 88 for the fuselage. For a different project have alsotried"West System Epoxy" made for the wood boat building industries by theGougeon Bros. Their website (www.westsystem.com) has a list of projects thatused their epoxies. It includes numerous aircraft. I left the stir sticks(pinescraps) in the plastic mixing cups and kept the batch cups and sticks asproofof cure. the stuff is amazing and in no case was I able to break the bondbetween the wood and epoxy. I'm considering switching to the West systemwhen my T 88 runs out.John Mc________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Mark Morgan
I have been using T 88 for the fuselage. For a different project have also tried"West System Epoxy" made for the wood boat building industries by the Gougeon Bros. Their website (www.westsystem.com) has a list of projects that used their epoxies. It includes numerous aircraft. I left the stir sticks (pinescraps) in the plastic mixing cups and kept the batch cups and sticks as proofof cure. the stuff is amazing and in no case was I able to break the bond between the wood and epoxy. I'm considering switching to the West system when my T 88 runs out.John Mc________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Randy Stockberger
I went to the web page and it would seem the "WEST SYSTEM" is little moreexpensive.One Quart = $34 to $44 depending on hardenerT88 from A/C spruce is about $25 if I remember correctly.Help me out if anyone knows if cost-wise T88 can be beaten.David Scott 5/27/98McNarry, John wrote:> I have been using T 88 for the fuselage. For a different project have also tried> "West System Epoxy" made for the wood boat building industries by the> Gougeon Bros. Their website (www.westsystem.com) has a list of projects that> used their epoxies. It includes numerous aircraft. I left the stir sticks (pine> scraps) in the plastic mixing cups and kept the batch cups and sticks as proof> of cure. the stuff is amazing and in no case was I able to break the bond> between the wood and epoxy. I'm considering switching to the West system> when my T 88 runs out.> John Mc--I went to the web page and it would seem the "WEST SYSTEM" is littlemore expensive.One Quart = $34 to $44 depending on hardenerT88 from A/C spruce is about $25 if I remember correctly.Help me out if anyone knows if cost-wise T88 can be beaten.David Scott 5/27/98McNarry, John wrote:I have been using T 88 for the fuselage. Fora different project have also tried"West System Epoxy" made for the wood boat building industries by theGougeon Bros. Their website (www.westsystem.com) has a list of projectsthatused their epoxies. It includes numerous aircraft. I left the stirsticks (pinescraps) in the plastic mixing cups and kept the batch cups and sticksas proofof cure. the stuff is amazing and in no case was I able to break thebondbetween the wood and epoxy. I'm considering switching to the West systemwhen my T 88 runs out.John Mc-- /------------------------------ |~~_____/~~__ | |DAVID SCOTT |______________ ______====== )-+ |scott(at)haulpak.com | o' ~~|~~~ | ------------------------------/ (O)________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: McNarry, John
I built a canoe using the West Systems epoxy. The viscosity of the mixedepoxy is significantly less than T-88 and I was afraid it would drain out ofa less than perfect joint and leave it dry. The Gougeon Bros sell fillersthat can be added to thicken the mixture but I was concerned about how thiswould affect the strength. I decided to use the T-88 because it is a knownquantity. Also, the West System stuff is mixed at a 3:1 ratio by volumeusing a pair of calibrated pumps that deliver a total of around 4 oz. Mostof my glue ups so far have used an ounce or less. With the West Systemstuff I would need to buy a different measuring system or weigh eachcomponent and develop a 'by weight' ratio. In any case, the T-88 cost forthe entire airframe is probably less than the equipment I would need todispense the West Epoxy.The fuselage sides are supposed to be covered in 3/32" plywood. I amconsidering using either 3/32" or 1/16" ply, then wrapping the area with 1layer of 6 oz glass cloth and West System epoxy. I am certain that thiswould be strong enough, but I will probably just stick with the plans, thatway I will have a Pietenpol when I'm done.The West System stuff is high quality, the Corvette of the epoxy systems.The Gougeon Bros have an excellent business reputation.Randy StockbergerCorvallis, OR-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Paris Wilcox
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: glues, epoxies.Thanks for your input Randy.I have been using the milled glass filler with the west epoxy on a rebuildof aStitts Flutterbug ( I hope it doesn't flutter). Any of the batches I mixedworkedvery well. I got around the batch size problem by using 60cc and 12 ccsyringes for dispensing epoxies.I also agree that by sticking to the plans you will have a Pietenpol. Theyaregreat but I've already deviated too far to fairly call my aircraft a Piet.John Mc________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Gary Gower
Thanks for your input Randy.I have been using the milled glass filler with the west epoxy on a rebuild of aStitts Flutterbug ( I hope it doesn't flutter). Any of the batches I mixed workedvery well. I got around the batch size problem by using 60cc and 12 cc syringes for dispensing epoxies.I also agree that by sticking to the plans you will have a Pietenpol. They aregreat but I've already deviated too far to fairly call my aircraft a Piet.John Mc ________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "Warren D. Shoun"
Apparently you are building in Bernard's spirit..You are building a Piet...RichOn Fri, 29 May 1998, McNarry, John wrote:> Thanks for your input Randy.> I have been using the milled glass filler with the west epoxy on a rebuild ofa > Stitts Flutterbug ( I hope it doesn't flutter). Any of the batches I mixed worked> very well. I got around the batch size problem by using 60cc and 12 cc > syringes for dispensing epoxies.> I also agree that by sticking to the plans you will have a Pietenpol. They are> great but I've already deviated too far to fairly call my aircraft a Piet.> > John Mc > > ________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "Richard F. Rapp"
Regarding Richard F. Rapp Here, here!! Bernie was a creative innovator who made the best use of thematerials at hand and improved on his own designs as he learned more. If you readabout his article about the development of the Sky Scout, he makes remarks abouthow hefeels that this got the best part of his design skills, and yet it is most certainlystill a Piet. He created a truly timeless design with the origional Ford powered Piet, andyetin the 60's he himself re-created a long fuselage version with a "modern" engine.Thatin no way destroyed the genetic purity of the Piet. May his creative and innovativespirit live on and fly with each version of his much beloved Piet.________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "Warren D. Shoun"
Hello Warren S. Where can I find that article of B. Pietenpol's on the developmentof the Sky Scout??? I would enjoy reading it.Can you post it here to the discussion group?Thanks,Rich________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Ken Beanlands
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: glues, epoxies.>The only problem I have with West System Epoxies is that it is quite thin.>This makes it kid of poor for gap filling and gussets around the edges of>the glue joints. However, this also allows it to soak into the wood quite>a bit making for these inredibly strong joints. It's mainly an astetic>thing. It looks like there is insuffecient around the edges of the joint>despite the fact it's strong enough.>>Ken>>On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 Wkoucky(at)aol.com wrote:>>>>> > I have been using T 88 for the fuselage. For a different project havealso>> tried>> "West System Epoxy" made for the wood boat building industries by the>> Gougeon Bros. Their website (www.westsystem.com) has a list of projectsthat>> used their epoxies. It includes numerous aircraft. I left the stirsticks>> (pine>> scraps) in the plastic mixing cups and kept the batch cups and sticks as>> proof>> of cure. the stuff is amazing and in no case was I able to break thebond>> between the wood and epoxy. I'm considering switching to the West system>> when my T 88 runs out.>> John Mc>> >>>> I am building my plane using the gougeon epoxy. I have used their epoxyfor>> years. I built an ice boat, restored a wooden sailboat and I am nowbuilding>> my plane with it. It is good stuff. Be careful of exposure as manyusers>> develope>>>>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Wayne and Kathy
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: glues, epoxies.>The only problem I have with West System Epoxies is that it is quite thin.>This makes it kid of poor for gap filling and gussets around the edges of>the glue joints. However, this also allows it to soak into the wood quite>a bit making for these inredibly strong joints. It's mainly an astetic>thing. It looks like there is insuffecient around the edges of the joint>despite the fact it's strong enough.>>Ken>>On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 Wkoucky(at)aol.com wrote:>>>>> > I have been using T 88 for the fuselage. For a different project havealso>> tried>> "West System Epoxy" made for the wood boat building industries by the>> Gougeon Bros. Their website (www.westsystem.com) has a list of projectsthat>> used their epoxies. It includes numerous aircraft. I left the stirsticks>> (pine>> scraps) in the plastic mixing cups and kept the batch cups and sticks as>> proof>> of cure. the stuff is amazing and in no case was I able to break thebond>> between the wood and epoxy. I'm considering switching to the West system>> when my T 88 runs out.>> John Mc>> >>>> I am building my plane using the gougeon epoxy. I have used their epoxyfor>> years. I built an ice boat, restored a wooden sailboat and I am nowbuilding>> my plane with it. It is good stuff. Be careful of exposure as manyusers>> develope>>>>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: duprey(at)excite.com
>I am building my plane using the gougeon epoxy. I have used their epoxy foryears. I built an ice boat, restored a wooden sailboat and I am now buildingmy plane with it. It is good stuff. Be careful of exposure as many usersdevelope________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: steve(at)byu.edu
I have used the west Epoxy on Boat building projects, and am impressed . Itdoes a great job & is easy to work with. It is pricey but good. I amcurrently using T-88 and might consider switching. I will check out the website.John Duprey> > I have been using T 88 for the fuselage. For a different project havealso> tried > "West System Epoxy" made for the wood boat building industries by the > Gougeon Bros. Their website (www.westsystem.com) has a list of projectsthat > used their epoxies. It includes numerous aircraft. I left the stirsticks> (pine > scraps) in the plastic mixing cups and kept the batch cups and sticks as> proof > of cure. the stuff is amazing and in no case was I able to break the bond> between the wood and epoxy. I'm considering switching to the West system> when my T 88 runs out.> John Mc> >>> I am building my plane using the gougeon epoxy. I have used their epoxyfor> years. I built an ice boat, restored a wooden sailboat and I am nowbuilding> my plane with it. It is good stuff. Be careful of exposure as manyusers> develope________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Ed0248(at)aol.com
The only problem I have with West System Epoxies is that it is quite thin.This makes it kid of poor for gap filling and gussets around the edges ofthe glue joints. However, this also allows it to soak into the wood quitea bit making for these inredibly strong joints. It's mainly an asteticthing. It looks like there is insuffecient around the edges of the jointdespite the fact it's strong enough. KenOn Thu, 11 Mar 1999 Wkoucky(at)aol.com wrote:> > I have been using T 88 for the fuselage. For a different project have also> tried > "West System Epoxy" made for the wood boat building industries by the > Gougeon Bros. Their website (www.westsystem.com) has a list of projects that > used their epoxies. It includes numerous aircraft. I left the stir sticks> (pine > scraps) in the plastic mixing cups and kept the batch cups and sticks as> proof > of cure. the stuff is amazing and in no case was I able to break the bond > between the wood and epoxy. I'm considering switching to the West system > when my T 88 runs out.> John Mc> >>> I am building my plane using the gougeon epoxy. I have used their epoxy for> years. I built an ice boat, restored a wooden sailboat and I am now building> my plane with it. It is good stuff. Be careful of exposure as many users> develope> ________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Ken Beanlands
Ken, try mixing in a bit of fberglass chop, you can make the mix anyconsistency you want up to peanut butter. the bost guys stick plywoodtogether at ninety degrees. They mask the glue area off with masking tapelay on a good bead of the mix and fillet it out with a tongue depressor.The excess is scrapped off. The joints I have made this way always break inthe plysheet and not in the epoxy bond.J Mc-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Ken Beanlands
Ken; What didn't you like about T-88?Earl Myers-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By:> Ken Beanlands
Actually, I have used both cotton flox and micro baloons as a thickeningagent. The micro baloons make a nice, sandable filler and the flox isused where I need more strength. I learned all this when building thefiberglass fuel tanks. Unfortunately, adding this decreases the simplicityof the West System epoxies and maked the T-88 more attractive. Forstructural joints, I think it's a better product as it will nicely gapsmall inperfections in the wood without compromising the glue strengthwith a filler material.However, for laminating, large surfaces, West System is the better choice. KenOn Thu, 11 Mar 1999, John McNarry wrote:> Ken, try mixing in a bit of fberglass chop, you can make the mix any> consistency you want up to peanut butter. the bost guys stick plywood> together at ninety degrees. They mask the glue area off with masking tape> lay on a good bead of the mix and fillet it out with a tongue depressor.> The excess is scrapped off. The joints I have made this way always break in> the plysheet and not in the epoxy bond.> > J Mc> -----Original Message-----

Original Posted By:> Ken Beanlands
Nothing, really. The West System with the pump system is just reallyconvenient to mix. One pump of resign and one of hardener and you're allset. I still use T-88 for structural joints. The reason I tested the WestSystem stuff for it's adhesive properties is because I still have a gallonkit in the basement left over from the canoe I built last winter and I hadrun out of T-88.Ken.On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Earl Myers wrote:> Ken;> What didn't you like about T-88?> Earl Myers> -----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: The Endicotts
Ken,Gee, thats odd. I have a gallon or so of Raka epoxy left overfrom my canoe and was wondering about using it. I used silicaas a filler when I needed a little more thickness on the canoe(16' Prospector from Canoecraft).I didn't trust the pumps for measuring. Every bit that wenton the boat was measured in plastic measuring cups.Where is the cheapest place to buy some T88? My check to Western Aircraft will go out on Monday or Tuesday. I am going to get all of the spruce in one shot - $1578 US + shipping. Jean warned me about using US made birch plywood and advisedeither Finland birch or mahogany. What are the general thoughtson this? Where is the best place to buy from?DaveSoon to be building....>Nothing, really. The West System with the pump system is just really>convenient to mix. One pump of resign and one of hardener and you're all>set. I still use T-88 for structural joints. The reason I tested the West>System stuff for it's adhesive properties is because I still have a gallon>kit in the basement left over from the canoe I built last winter and I had>run out of T-88.>>Ken.>>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Earl Myers
> Subject: Re: glues, epoxies.> > > >The only problem I have with West System Epoxies is that it is quite thin.> >This makes it kid of poor for gap filling and gussets around the edges of> >the glue joints. However, this also allows it to soak into the wood quite> >a bit making for these inredibly strong joints. It's mainly an astetic> >thing. It looks like there is insuffecient around the edges of the joint> >despite the fact it's strong enough.> >> >Ken> >> >On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 Wkoucky(at)aol.com wrote:> >> >>> >> >> I have been using T 88 for the fuselage. For a different project have> also> >> tried> >> "West System Epoxy" made for the wood boat building industries by the> >> Gougeon Bros. Their website (www.westsystem.com) has a list of projects> that> >> used their epoxies. It includes numerous aircraft. I left the stir> sticks> >> (pine> >> scraps) in the plastic mixing cups and kept the batch cups and sticks as> >> proof> >> of cure. the stuff is amazing and in no case was I able to break the> bond> >> between the wood and epoxy. I'm considering switching to the West system> >> when my T 88 runs out.> >> John Mc> >> >>> >> I am building my plane using the gougeon epoxy. I have used their epoxy> for> >> years. I built an ice boat, restored a wooden sailboat and I am now> building> >> my plane with it. It is good stuff. Be careful of exposure as many> users> >> develope> >>> >> >> >> ________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: steve(at)byu.edu
> Subject: Re: glues, epoxies.> > > >The only problem I have with West System Epoxies is that it is quite thin.> >This makes it kid of poor for gap filling and gussets around the edges of> >the glue joints. However, this also allows it to soak into the wood quite> >a bit making for these inredibly strong joints. It's mainly an astetic> >thing. It looks like there is insuffecient around the edges of the joint> >despite the fact it's strong enough.> >> >Ken> >________________________________________________________________________________