Brodhead Pietenpol Association

Original Posted By: mike cushway
Subject: Pietenpol-List: progress>Dear Group,>> Mr. Peters in Calgary has been so helpful passing on many hints>about construction techniques and short cuts. I decided to use that>"Structan" brand glue that the Canadians have been using for manyyears>now. I beleive there is only one supplier in the States for it. Ithas a>30 min. work time, 2 hour clamp time, and a 7 day fully cure time. I>glued 2 samples of that Australian hoop-pine plywood (5 ply) 1/4".After>33 hours I pryed the joint (not sheered) and it separated across 3plys>splintering at each layer. I couldn't ask for any better than that.> I have an almost empty table waiting for wood. I bought 2002"x#12>flathead (phillip) wood screws and made rib jigs (six of 'em) out of>them by building a pattern rib out of fir I had laying around and>screwing them all into the top of the table using the pattern rib asa>guide. I beleive I can make quick work of this part of the process.>Big Thanks to everyone.>>DannyMac>>P.S. Wood was held up by weather, Jean said it was to be shippedFriday.>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: mike cushway
Dear Group, Mr. Peters in Calgary has been so helpful passing on many hintsabout construction techniques and short cuts. I decided to use that"Structan" brand glue that the Canadians have been using for many yearsnow. I beleive there is only one supplier in the States for it. It has a30 min. work time, 2 hour clamp time, and a 7 day fully cure time. Iglued 2 samples of that Australian hoop-pine plywood (5 ply) 1/4". After33 hours I pryed the joint (not sheered) and it separated across 3 plyssplintering at each layer. I couldn't ask for any better than that. I have an almost empty table waiting for wood. I bought 200 2"x#12flathead (phillip) wood screws and made rib jigs (six of 'em) out ofthem by building a pattern rib out of fir I had laying around andscrewing them all into the top of the table using the pattern rib as aguide. I beleive I can make quick work of this part of the process.Big Thanks to everyone. DannyMacP.S. Wood was held up by weather, Jean said it was to be shipped Friday.________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: dannymac
Howard Wilkinson wrote:> > DannyMac:> What kind of glue is this?? Resourcinol? Epoxy? Urea> Formaldehyde? Casien? I've never heard of it.Hello Howard, It is a thixotropic polyurethane type adhesive. Doesn't thixotropicjust mean that it's a gel? I'm reading the lit that came with it andthe clamp time is 2-4 hours and ready for rigorous testing after 7 days.It is a single component glue that comes in a caulk gun-type cartridgeand has a shelf life of about one year once opened and kept capped andrefrigerated. I understand its been on the European market for a decadeor so and meets the Canadian cert requirements as well.It cost about $12.00 a tube and it will probably be a while before I tapinto that considering the generous sample that Sammy sent me fromAmBel Corp in Cottonport La. I haven't heard of anyone building with ithere so I'll test it for you guys if you like. I'll leave word with myfamily to give you guys a ring should I collapse out of the sky. Give Sammy a call and ask him more about it. He is a very nicefellow but sounds like a salesman on the phone so you can ask JeanPeters about it at Western Aircraft too. Jean has been around a bitlonger than myself and I trust his advice on new products. He doesn'tstrike me as the kind of man that would readily take to new technologyover proven ones if he didn't beleive in it himself. Dannymac________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: dannymac
Dannymac, I'm interested in the cost of wood to frame-up the Piet. Any infowould be appreciated.Thanks,Bruce>Dear Group,>> Mr. Peters in Calgary has been so helpful passing on many hints>about construction techniques and short cuts. I decided to use that>"Structan" brand glue that the Canadians have been using for many years>now. I beleive there is only one supplier in the States for it. It has a>30 min. work time, 2 hour clamp time, and a 7 day fully cure time. I>glued 2 samples of that Australian hoop-pine plywood (5 ply) 1/4". After>33 hours I pryed the joint (not sheered) and it separated across 3 plys>splintering at each layer. I couldn't ask for any better than that.> I have an almost empty table waiting for wood. I bought 200 2"x#12>flathead (phillip) wood screws and made rib jigs (six of 'em) out of>them by building a pattern rib out of fir I had laying around and>screwing them all into the top of the table using the pattern rib as a>guide. I beleive I can make quick work of this part of the process.>Big Thanks to everyone.>>DannyMac>>P.S. Wood was held up by weather, Jean said it was to be shipped Friday.>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: John Greenlee
bholbrook wrote:> > Dannymac,> I'm interested in the cost of wood to frame-up the Piet. Any info> would be appreciated.> Thanks,> Bruce> Bruce,I'm not sure about the prices at Wicks or Aircraft Spruce but you cancall or E-mail them and they will send you a free catalog. I choseWestern Aircraft Supply in Calgary because several people on this sitegave good recomendations on the quality of Jean's product. Since I amignorant on choosing quality wood, decided to trust Jean after speakingto him on the phone. I paid appx $1500.00 for the entire Piet spruce.Jean has been around a while and has been building planes longer thanI've been breathing (sorry Jean). Anyway, he was able to ship it outalmost immediately and that was a BIG plus since I'm shooting for adeadline......Osh next year. At the time I ordered wood from him I did not know that he cutseverything to specs and even routs the tail feathers and cuts all of thefuse pieces and marks them. Closest thing to a Piet kit that I've found.I thought I was simply buying a stack of lumber. I'll know more when itarrives.Dannymac________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Patrick Panzera
Bruce:I bought the wood kit from Aircraft Spruce & Specialty ($823 USD) and it was NOT suitable for builing an Aircamper. I don't know where they got their specs. from, but I had to buy another guys project that had the correct pieces. All you'll get from AC&S is spare parts and some kindling for $823.Doug>From: dannymac >Reply-To: Pietenpol Discussion >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Subject: Re: progress>Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 12:02:22 -0500>>bholbrook wrote:> >> > Dannymac,> > I'm interested in the cost of wood to frame-up the Piet. Any info> > would be appreciated.> > Thanks,> > Bruce> >>>Bruce,>>I'm not sure about the prices at Wicks or Aircraft Spruce but you can>call or E-mail them and they will send you a free catalog. I chose>Western Aircraft Supply in Calgary because several people on this site>gave good recomendations on the quality of Jean's product. Since I am>ignorant on choosing quality wood, decided to trust Jean after speaking>to him on the phone. I paid appx $1500.00 for the entire Piet spruce.>Jean has been around a while and has been building planes longer than>I've been breathing (sorry Jean). Anyway, he was able to ship it out>almost immediately and that was a BIG plus since I'm shooting for a>deadline......Osh next year.> At the time I ordered wood from him I did not know that he cuts>everything to specs and even routs the tail feathers and cuts all of the>fuse pieces and marks them. Closest thing to a Piet kit that I've found.>I thought I was simply buying a stack of lumber. I'll know more when it>arrives.>>Dannymac________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: dannymac
DannyMac: What kind of glue is this?? Resourcinol? Epoxy? UreaFormaldehyde? Casien? I've never heard of it.-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Howard Wilkinson
Howard, I like using RAKA epoxy its cheap, strong and water proofbuild a few ribs to get a good understanding of the glues characteristics(GEE I HOPE I SPEELED THAT WORD CORRECT!)I use silica to thicken after presaturating sanded parts!however you'll need to paint your wings white or silver!-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Mike Bell
What a weekend! I took Friday off so I could have all that day andSaturday to work on my Piet (and my wife saw to it that I got most ofSunday too!) and man, did I get a lot done! I went from two fuselagesides on Friday to an actual fuselage sitting in my shop on Sunday.http://www.aircamper.org/users/rdecosta ... ress.cfmIt is very satisfying after so many months to see a fuselage you can_almost_ sit in! Let me say one thing for those of you trying to avoid nails in yourfuse: GET A TON OF CLAMPS! Get as many as you can! You'll need them! Ihave only 12, and I used every one of them every time I glued anything!Keep pluggin' away people! I never thought I'd see mine this far, buthere I am!Richard==="Lady, you want me to answer you if this old airplane is safe to fly? Just howin the world do you think it got to be this old?" - Jim Tavenner---------------------------------------------------------Visit www.AirCamper.org - A Low 'n Slow Online Community!---------------------------------------------------------My homepage: http://www.AirCamper.org/w3builder_____ ... __________

Original Posted By: Chad Johnson
Epoxy doesn't need much pressure, in fact too much is bad. Twoone foot pieces of 2x2 with a six or eight inch bolt through theends or alternately through the end and middle using a piece ofwood equal to the thickness of what you want to clamp placedbetween the bolts, will give all the pressure that you need.Big rubber bands on both ends of a pair of 2x2's will also giveenough pressure. A little waxed paper under each side of these"econo" clamps will insure that they do not become an additionalpart of the fuse, wing, etc. Rubber bands alone will also dothe trick in some situations. As long as alignment ismaintained you're home cheap.Mike BellColumbia, SC________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Ken Beanlands
Chad, Do you know which aircraft or aircraft engine these Slick mags wereintended for? Also, how can I purchase one or two of these mags? Thanks.Randall Reihing>Greetings group,>>I've been enjoying the postings. Tons of great info. I have a questionfor the model A guys. Are the modification plans in the 1932 Glider mag.complete, or are there some updated mods I should incorporate? Will I beok to follow those instructions word for word ?? I had thought of soupingup but now I want to keep it as simple as possible.> Also, I have a source for 4 cyl magnetos made by slick. They are brandnew in the box, 15 degree lag, right rotation. They were manufacturedaround 1988 for ground power units. I have talked directly with Slick andthey confirmed that these mags are the same quality as the aircraftversion, just different color. They come with timing instructions and holddown fittings. Somone tell me if I am missing somthing, but I think for$15.00 a piece, these will make a great ignition source. Email me ifinterested.>Keep up the chatter. Chad.>>-----Original Message----->From: Mike Bell [SMTP:mbell(at)sctcorp.com]>Sent: Monday, June 21, 1999 7:17 AM>To: Pietenpol Discussion>Subject: Clamps & glue, Re: progress>>>Epoxy doesn't need much pressure, in fact too much is bad. Two>one foot pieces of 2x2 with a six or eight inch bolt through the>ends or alternately through the end and middle using a piece of>wood equal to the thickness of what you want to clamp placed>between the bolts, will give all the pressure that you need.>Big rubber bands on both ends of a pair of 2x2's will also give>enough pressure. A little waxed paper under each side of these>"econo" clamps will insure that they do not become an additional>part of the fuse, wing, etc. Rubber bands alone will also do>the trick in some situations. As long as alignment is>maintained you're home cheap.>>Mike Bell>Columbia, SC>>Attachment Converted: "c:eudoraattachA rebuildMagnetos1">Randall ReihingUniversity of ToledoCollege of EngineeringMIME Department419-530-8244FAX: 419-530-8206E-Mail: rreihing(at)eng.utoledo.edu________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Michael D Cuy
I have a question concerning the use of rubber bands as clamps. I used T-88epoxy on my fuselage. A hint I read somewhere showed a rubber band loopedthrough a washer, with the washer used to secure the larger loop of therubber band around the piece to be secured (confused?). Ever time I triedthis, I could only get 2 uses out of each rubber band, because the rubber"rotted". Sometimes only one use would do this. Was this due to fumes fromthe epoxy reacting with the rubber? Anyone else experience this? Inquiring minds would like to know.Thanks.Al Swanson>>>Epoxy doesn't need much pressure, in fact too much is bad. Two>one foot pieces of 2x2 with a six or eight inch bolt through the>ends or alternately through the end and middle using a piece of>wood equal to the thickness of what you want to clamp placed>between the bolts, will give all the pressure that you need.>Big rubber bands on both ends of a pair of 2x2's will also give>enough pressure. A little waxed paper under each side of these>"econo" clamps will insure that they do not become an additional>part of the fuse, wing, etc. Rubber bands alone will also do>the trick in some situations. As long as alignment is>maintained you're home cheap.>>Mike Bell>Columbia, SC>>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Alan Swanson
Try this:Put a drop of hardener on a rubber band. No more rubber band- the vapors dothe same thing. Its the MEK content.Inquiring minds now know ;-)Mike----- Original Message -----________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Mike Bell
Some epoxy engineers don't like to use wax paper claimingthat some of the wax will desperse into the the glue joint, I useplastic drop cloth from Walmart.----- Original Message ----- ________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "skellytown flyer"
Being in the engineering business all my life=2C I've never had a shortage of cardboard pattern material. Every pack of blueprint paper (precut sheets) comes with a cardboart sheet on each side of the blueprint paper. Most of the drawings we work with are 24x36 so there are generous sized pieces to work with. I've used it to make templates for just about every custom-shaped piece on my Flying Squirrel.Oscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CCSan Antonio=2C TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: progress

Original Posted By: "Lagowski Morrow"
Well I have enjoyed reading the posts as usual on progress and it finally seemsI'm starting to make some. I got the fuselage painted and today bolted the stabilizerson it. hopefully tomorrow I'll get time to get the tail-brace wiresrigged and possibly start figuring out just where to come through the fabric withthe control cables.that looks like it could be a challenge to get them allthrough without having to add some patches but boy it will be fun to see thetail surfaces done and operating! then i can start moving forward as time permits.looks to be a busy summer and I'll be working around Kansas quite a bit thissummer but when i come home for the weekends I sure hope i can do somethingon it each time. RaymondRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

Original Posted By: shad bell
I have a surplus heat box for the same carb which I will sell for the best offer. I'll ship and if you don't like it you ship it back--Jim Lagowski jimdeb(at)charter.net ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Ben Charvet
Well I finally got to the day yesterday when I took the fuselage and wings to thehangar.Not a big trip for me- in a town of 600 people you can get away witha lot. I towed it up on it's mains right down main street and to my old tinshed hangar.spent today bolting on wings and rigging cables.still a few thingsto do including closing up the bottom of the center section now that I have thecables rigged in there and safety wiring the turnbuckles.but I fired it upand taxied it this afternoon.boy what a thrill. to think that maybe before thefirst frost this thing will be capable of flight. Did notice one of my coilsis running rough on the Corvair. I had timed it and then noticed one set of pointswas more burned. I expected that it would smooth up with a new set of pointsand condenser. I installed them without checking the timing and when I switchedto it this afternoon I had some power loss.so I will need to go back anddouble check gap and timing.but it has possibilities.RaymondRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 21:47:07 -0400

Original Posted By: "Billy McCaskill"
That is AMAZING progress for having started only 6 weeks ago! At this rate, youshould meet your projected deadline for flying your Pietenpol! Keep it up,I want to see your plane at Brodhead next July!--------Billy McCaskillUrbana, ILtail section almost done, starting on ribs soonRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: progress

Original Posted By: Lawrence Williams
Putting it all together and taxiing your plane for the first time is a great milestone!Keep up the progress, and keep us updated!--------Billy McCaskillUrbana, ILtail section almost done, starting on ribs soonRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 04:44:07 -0700 (PDT)

Original Posted By: "Dan P"
Yeah, Wellies with shorts and a t-shirt - exactly what the stylish stable-mucker wears in summer . While I don't yet have any pedal experience with a Piet (except for a flight in Mike C's many years ago), I have found that for similar situations, boat shoes (i.e. Sperry Topsiders) work well for the same reason as Oscar's preferred tennis shoes. I like the kind that have laces, so that I can tie them to the tightness I want.Kip GardnerOn Sep 19, 2010, at 10:48 AM, Oscar Zuniga wrote:> >>> Axel (err... Kevin)... I agree wholeheartedly with you. Wearing> the wrong footwear can ruin your rollout. It's happened to me,> too. My footwear of choice for flying the Piet are my Justin> Roper boots, which are a Wellington style, smooth rounded toes,> low heels. They have nothing on them to hang up on anything> and are easy to slide into the foot-holes. What they are NOT,> though, is appropriate for summertime flying in shorts and a> tee shirt (or so my wife tells me). In the summer I wear a> pair of tennis shoes... the slimmer and cleaner, the better.> Most running-type shoes have all kinds of lugs and contours> and laces and stuff on them, and none of that is good for> getting in and out of the airplane, and make them prone to> hang up on things up around your feet.>> Others have reported the same experience. Maybe we should let> the FAA know so they can require us to install warning placards> in the cockpit 'APPROPRIATE FOOTWEAR REQUIRED FOR SAFE FLIGHT'.>> Oscar Zuniga> Air Camper NX41CC> San Antonio, TX> mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net >>________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: progress

Original Posted By: Jim Boyer
It's great when small pieces are finally being assembled to make one big piece. I think I see a perma-grin in the picture?--------Dan PlettN28WHRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/skel ... ______Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 19:50:07 +0000 (UTC)

Original Posted By: Oscar Zuniga
>i'm sure she'll appreciate the compliments... that's my wife of almost 15 years.. she's 5' 10 and i was a bit worried about her fitting so i've been kinda warning her about it being small...i'm actually building with the F&G manual.... she says she feels like is has more room than my 120 did because we're not shoulder to shoulder..JeffRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/piet6_205.jpgle, List Admin.=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "Michael Silvius"
So i'm one and a half months in....i sure hope i can keep the paceI need metal so i can start on the brackets for the gear legs..but i'm excitedto be able to sit in it and make engine noisesmy wife jumped in the front seat and says it's way more room than she expectedHey Dan.... i loved you seat so much i made my own..jeffribs donewheels on orderengine stripped ready to ship out [Wink]Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dash ... __________

Original Posted By: "bender"
Pictures, pictures, pictures -- we (members who are in the building process) need all the pics we can get. If you don't have one, buy one of the cheapest digital cameras you can find and take lots and lots of pictures. Don't forget to attach them to E-mails. My Pietenpol folder is not nearly full.Chuck----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Charles, if you noticed, Jeff DID include pictures as attachments in thebottom of the email. And the last one has a beautiful young lady sitting inthe front seat.By the way, nice looking work, Jeff. And I'm impressed that anyone whobuilds Pietenpols could attract such a nice young lady.Jack PhillipsNX899JP "Icarus Plummet"Raleigh, NC-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: shad bell
i'm sure she'll appreciate the compliments... that's my wife of almost 15 years..she's 5' 10 and i was a bit worried about her fitting so i've been kinda warningher about it being small...i'm actually building with the F&G manual.... she says she feels like is has more room than my 120 did because we're not shoulderto shoulder..JeffRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/piet ... ______Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 09:41:23 -0800 (PST)

Original Posted By: "Jack"
Thanks to all who responded=2C especially Hans in Waller=2C TX... where Malcolm owns a hangar (or his estate does).Now on to the next bit of the trail: the Fairchild may be=2C or have been=2C in Lakeland Florida. It is very obviously no longer in Malcolm's hangar in Waller=2C Texas. If anyone in the Lakeland area knows of a Fairchild or someone who is into old airplanes who might be aware of it=2C I'd appreciate any help... off-list=2C please.Oscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"San Antonio=2C TXwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: helspersew(at)aol.com
Jeff, I noticed you are not listed in our directory, if you (or anyone else)would like to submit your info please complete the attached Excel file andreturn to me. I will then send you the updated list which has 74 listings.BTW nice progress, hangar and passenger!Thanks,JackJack Textor29 SW 58th DriveDes Moines, IA 50312www.textors.com________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: progress

Original Posted By: bender
Jeff,Very nice looking seat indeed! And the instrument panel inlay I like too! I am impressed by your speed of construction. Brodhead 2011? :O)Dan HelsperPoplar Grove, IL.-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: "Barry Davis"
Why yes i am Shad...i've been in the corporate aviation world since 88.. citations, hawkers, lear and challengers most of my career .... i work on littleplanes for friends..annuals and such, but only for a few that i know and trust...thanks for the inspiration on the seat Dan.. i dig it..and Cliff on the dash shape.. i'm not sure i would have thought of the little curveon the bottom of the panel.. but it really fits the time period i thinkjeffRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
JackIs this list on the web somewhere? I was wondering if all the Big Piet guyssubmitted their infoBarry _____

Original Posted By: "Pieti Lowell"
Jeff !Please ask your wife if she would like a ride in my old style Ford driven Pietenpol,I give rides, even when I help getting the riders in. You must teach herstep up more to clear the cockpit edge.Pieti LowellRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: doc's email and plastic resin glue

Original Posted By: John Franklin
Douwe ,You have much more than your $ .02 , we can tell by how you have expounded on atough problem with a truly excellent solution. and that is my $ .02 worth.Pieti LowellRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 20:41:30 -0500 (EST)

Original Posted By: "AlRice"
Steam-Punk. Just like the rest of the plane. :-)Clif> and Cliff on the dash shape.. i'm not sure i would have thought of the > little curve on the bottom of the panel.. but it really fits the time > period i think>> jeff________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: progress

Original Posted By: Jeff Boatright
Are there any new Piets on track for first arrival at Brodhead 2011? Gen-= November is the Annual List Fund -========================; - -> http://====================== ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 10:54:00 -0500

Original Posted By: "bender"
Will be there with Bells on. Need 36 caps.Pieti LowellDon't archiveRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: progress

Original Posted By: "bender"
the caning came from Woodcraft... i didn't even know they had it till last week.. i stopped in to pick up the inlay and maple veneer for the dash and just happenedto see it..i bought 2 feet and 10 feet of reed to hold it in place... then looked at a videoon youtube to get the basic idea of how to do it..i don't have a table saw so i marked the width of the groove i needed and carefullycut it with a cordless circular sawit's actually very comfortable to sit on and easy to dojeffRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Please report in

Original Posted By: "TOM STINEMETZE"
i have dreams but....like Mr Cuy says... plan on double the timejeffRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 08:49:39 -0600

Original Posted By: Michael Perez

Original Posted By: "Charles Campbell"
Thanks for the info on the seat, Jeff. Hope you don't mind if I copy you. Veryvintage!--------Al RiceSkybolt 260RV-9AHelping with my grandson's PietRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

Original Posted By: jeff wilson
Unless things have changed I believe you only need 40 hours fly-off time. Is that correct or have they changed the rules? ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "bender"
It looks very nice but will it handle your weight x 6 G? And if it did collapse in turbulence would you still be able to operate the controls?Regards Mike T.----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: gliderx5(at)comcast.net

Original Posted By: "AlRice"
Yeah! I'm copying him, also. Chuck----- Original Message -----