Brodhead Pietenpol Association

Original Posted By: Mike Madrid
Randall Reihing wrote:> > Danymac,> About five years ago I met an Alan Wise of Florida who arrived> at Brodhead> in a C-65 Pietenpol with solid wood struts that he may have fabricated> himself.I think this is the bizarre Pietenpol creation I saw a t Sun-n-Funthis year. As is typical with the aileron hinges on my Piet andnumerous struts/hinges I've seen on Piets and boredom fightersthey are sheet metal covered with wood for a vintage look.If I find a plane with wood struts or hinges I'm not riding in it...Ktm________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Kirk & Laura Huizenga
>Has anyone built streamlined wing struts out of wood.>There is a Piet at Lakeland Fl with wood struts. They are a woodsandwich with flat stock in the middle.Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:22:03 -0600

Original Posted By: John Duprey
John Duprey said:> Gary / Kerri-Anne Price's piet used wood struts with a piece of flat stocksteel> sandwiched inside. Looks great!It's been several years since I saw the plane.Did the flat stock go all the way up the struts, orwas it just a bolt-through insert to keep the fittingsin place?Owen Davies________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 16:15:18 -0500

Original Posted By: John Duprey

Original Posted By: "Warren D. Shoun"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood strutsWhat dimensions are used for the steel inside the struts? Is it a flat piece of 4130? ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 14:26:09 -0800

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
A friend of mine in Ottawa Co. OH. Bill Poiry, has a real nice piet he builtand he made the wood struts with the reinforce steel.I'm not sure how he did it but I plan to visit him this weekend and I'll askhim. They look great. I'll try to get a few pics of them and his plane andI'll post them on my website at the "more piets and planes" area.CarlPlease visit my website atwww.megsinet.net/skycarl-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: "Carl Loar"
I put a few pics of Bill Poirys piet on my website at the more piets andplanes area at the bottom of the home page.One of the pics is of his wood struts. He said that he used a 1 inchpiece of 6061 aluminum stock down the centerAnd added the two pieces of wood around it. It looks great.CarlPlease visit my website atwww.megsinet.net/skycarl________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Correction,,,, that was one and a half inch aluminum.CarlPlease visit my website atwww.megsinet.net/skycarl-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Carl Loar
Carl, any idea what the thickness of the aluminum was?----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Ian, Not sure but I'll be talking to him later this week and I'll find outand post it.CarlPlease visit my website atwww.megsinet.net/skycarl-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: kgardner(at)odu.edu
It was last spring, or so. I needed to make some non structural parts for my airplane.No glue. No wood for that matter either.The wood was easy, stright grain western hemlock. The glue was a little harder. I couldn't find any epoxy locally. So I bought some of that new Polyurathane glue.Polyurathane is the new one part stuff, which is rapidly replacing the old Elmer's carpenter glue.Well, I cut and glued my parts. I had some extras, so set them aside, and watched the glue set.It took about 10 hours for them to set up. 24 hours for them to really set up. And at least 7 days for a real cure of the glue.Good strong joint !The wood parts which were then of no use, later became tomato stakes in the garden.Stuck 1/2 in the dirt, and 1/2 out, the glue joint held up well all last summer.Fall came, Along with an october roto till. Winter came, winter went...The wood was forgotten.I got busy last Saturday, getting the garden spot ready for spring planting.Under the abandoned corn stalks, and sopping wet,and covered in spring thaw mud, were the long forgotten polyurathane glued hemlock airplane parts.../...tomato stakes.Well, not wishing to pass on the chance to examine these glue joints, I did a destructive test.With my hands, I did try to torque some of the qlue joints apart.The wood, gray now, but still quite strong... broke, the glue joint held.As a matter of fact, I'd say that the polyurathane glue joint was ....even stronger.... after a year to cure, and in the muck, and under the winter, than it was when fresh after curing in good wood for 7 days.And every but as strong as any T-88 epoxy joint I have ever seen.I still wouldn't vouch for polyurathane glue's use in an airplane structure. And I would be a fool to do so. But in secret, after seeing the strength of that wet, weathered glue joint, I wouldn't be suprised if this new glue will soon replace t-88 as the wood airplane glue of choice.I honestly think that I would be willing to use it in an airplane. It's pretty good stuff.Bob________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Polyurathane glue

Original Posted By: "Carl Loar"
03/20/2001 09:37:56 AMoilcanbob(at)hotmail.com@matronics.com on 03/20/2001 01:58:44 AMIt was last spring, or so. I needed to make some non structural parts formyairplane.No glue. No wood for that matter either.The wood was easy, stright grain western hemlock. The glue was a littleharder. I couldn't find any epoxy locally. So I bought some of that newPolyurathane glue.Polyurathane is the new one part stuff, which is rapidly replacing the oldElmer's carpenter glue.Well, I cut and glued my parts. I had some extras, so set them aside, andwatched the glue set.It took about 10 hours for them to set up. 24 hours for them to really setup. And at least 7 days for a real cure of the glue.Good strong joint !The wood parts which were then of no use, later became tomato stakes inthegarden.Stuck 1/2 in the dirt, and 1/2 out, the glue joint held up well all lastsummer.Fall came, Along with an october roto till. Winter came, winterwent...The wood was forgotten.I got busy last Saturday, getting the garden spot ready for springplanting.Under the abandoned corn stalks, and sopping wet,and covered in spring thawmud, were the long forgotten polyurathane glued hemlock airplaneparts.../...tomato stakes.Well, not wishing to pass on the chance to examine these glue joints, I dida destructive test.With my hands, I did try to torque some of the qlue joints apart.The wood, gray now, but still quite strong... broke, the glue joint held.As a matter of fact, I'd say that the polyurathane glue joint was ....evenstronger.... after a year to cure, and in the muck, and under the winter,than it was when fresh after curing in good wood for 7 days.And every but as strong as any T-88 epoxy joint I have ever seen.I still wouldn't vouch for polyurathane glue's use in an airplanestructure. And I would be a fool to do so. But in secret, after seeing thestrength of that wet, weathered glue joint, I wouldn't be suprised if thisnew glue will soon replace t-88 as the wood airplane glue of choice.I honestly think that I would be willing to use it in an airplane. It'spretty good stuff.BobBob, et al,Interesting that you should mention this, while I agree that it's notnecessarily wise to vouch for polyeurathane glue's use in airplanestructure, I will say that when I visited Andrew Pietenpol this pastsummer, he was using it to build his new Piet. He said that he felt it wasimportant to see some seepage from the joint to be sure it was complete andstrong. Don't know yet what I'll be using on my project, but I thought thisstuff had promise.Cheers!KipLaboratory Manager, ODUDept. of Ocean, Earth & Atmospheric Sciences4600 Elkhorn AvenueNorfolk, VA 23529(757)683-5654Bumper Sticker of the Week:"Don't Drink and Park - 'Accidents' Cause People"________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
I've used elmer's probond thru my whole project. It's great. Easy to use andstrong as heck.CarlPlease visit my website atwww.megsinet.net/skycarl-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: "Don Emch"

Original Posted By: "Don Emch"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: magneto groundIn a message dated 3/20/01 4:40:35 PM Pacific Standard Time, emchair(at)cros.net writes:> I'm getting ready to run my A-65 on my Piet for the first time. I'm not > into electrics at all. Hence the Piet and the A-65! I have a very > elementary question. I'm using the old Case mags and a typical mag switch. > Does anybody know what would constitute a good ground? Thanks ahead of > time for any help.> Don Emch> > > Don,The following applies to each mag individually. The body (aluminum case) of each mag should be electrically bonded (metal to metal contact usually at the mounting point) to the engine case. The 'P' lead (a wire tap off of the primary (low voltage) coil winding) from each mag should run through a wire to the mag switch. When the switch is on, the circuit is open (mag 'P' lead not grounded) mag is hot. When the switch is off, the circuit is closed (mag 'P' lead grounded) mag is cold. Doug Bryant Wichita, Ks ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:14:15 -0500

Original Posted By: "Don Emch"
Don,My mentor suggested this place for plugs ( 18mm) amd all the old time wiresand clips.http://www.magnetoparts.com/really interesting site.walt---------------------------------------------------------- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Oscar Zuniga
Hi everyone hope you all have had a great christmas and newyear.I have seen a few pic's of Piets with wood flying and cabane struts.Does anyone have any tips or ideas on these, timber to use, building method etc?I did find a builders log a few months back and the gentleman was making laminatedstruts but I never saved it and cant find it again so if anyone knows thesite could you please post the link.ThanksCarsonRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

Original Posted By: carson
Hi Carson..I see no one has answered your post so I guess I'll chime in and maybe it will stir up some other interest. I didn't answer at first because I have no real experience with wood struts, But...I have seen Allan Wise's Piet at Sun N Fun many times and checked out his wooden struts carefully mainly out of amazement that anyone would do such a thing. His Piet was built in the early sixties and from what I hear has a ton of flying hours on it ( I could swear it was like 1600 hrs). The struts looked to be made of ash, oval shaped and lamenated with a top and a bottom piece and a thin strip of darker wood down the center, front and rear. I believe the darker wood is a filler strip on each side of a steel strip which is lamenated into the struts to take the tension loads. After learning about the steel strip they make a lot more sence. Allans were varnished and even though they were very old and darkened from age they were very nice looking. Hope this is of some help. Ed G. ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Steve Ruse"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood strutsHere I go butting in on the conversation again. During Brodhead 2000, our first, I was impressed with a Piet from Ohio with wooden struts. Did not recordthe owners name. Was painted red and white or maybe cream, straight axle with motorcycle wheels and brakes to include the brake activators right up to the instrument panel. SIMPLICITY. The struts, if I remember, were 3/4 by about3 laminated of 3 1/4 pieces. Two spruce outside with 1/4 marine plywood in the center, I think. It was Ford powered. The beauty of it all was SIMPLICITYCorky in warm Louisiana, 75 today**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... __________

Original Posted By: "Jim Markle"
Thanks for the replies guysEd was the steel in Allans struts the main strenght and the wood for shape alsodo you have any pic's?It was Jim Markles build log that I was looking for he has made some great lookingcabanes.Anymore discussion would be great.ThanksCarsonRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

Original Posted By: "carson"
Thanks Carson...I saw a sketch of a lift strut several years ago that had a flat bar (probably .090 by 1"wide or so) laminated inside a wood strut. Not sure if it was Allan's or maybe Wil Graff's (the plane Corky was probably referring to in an earlier post). Wils's piet is beautiful. Seems like adding a steel strip would make it pretty heavy. Now that I think about it, maybe some carbon fiber or kevlar laminated in there might provide the same strength.I think Allan told me he had 3000 hours on his Piet. Maybe it was 2000 hrs....whatever, it was wild. Allan is one of the most interesting people.Attached is a picture of an all wood lift strut. I have no idea where I got it (I'm probably violating some copyright law by forwarding it) but it looks like it's all wood.jm----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Clif Dawson

Original Posted By: Ben Charvet

Original Posted By: "carson"
Allan Wise does not have steel strap in his lift struts or cabanes. I have talked with him at length on this.Dick N.----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "T White"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood strutsJim,What part of Oklahoma do you live in?I live in Harrah, OklahomaJim Veazey_____________________________________________________________Hate your job? Click here to start a rewarding career in Human Resources.http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL ... __________

Original Posted By: "carson"
To:pietenpol-list(at)matronics.comSubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood strutsJim, What part of Oklahoma do you live in? I live in Harrah, Oklahoma Jim Veazey _____________________________________________________________Hate your job? Click here to start a rewarding career in Human Resources. ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts

Original Posted By: AmsafetyC(at)aol.com
Dick N. suggested-> On the radio, with a handheld, performance will be greatly increased > with an external antenna and installation of a ground plate. Try a 18"x > 18" piece af aluminun under or behind the seat mounted horizontally and > conected to the ground of the antenna. It helped me greatly.I originally tried the radio (bottom-of-the-line Icom IC-A4 Sport) with add-on push-to-talk switch velcro'd to the stick, connected to my flying helmet headset with the Icom adapter and connected to my fixed external antenna that is mounted behind the seat with an aluminum ground plane.Being in a bit of a hurry to get off the ground and finding that my signal wasn't getting out, I first determined that the Velcro'd PTT switch didn't work with this radio so I ditched it and resigned myself to using the transmit switch on the side of the radio. So my signal got out, but weak. Next, I tried using the radio's internal mic rather than my boom mic and the signal was even clearer and better to my ground receiving station (my brother, with a nicer handheld). That left only the antenna.Removing the airplane's antenna and restoring the "rubber duckie" seemed to be better but then again we may have tried the rubber duckie before we eliminated the problems with the boom mic and external PTT (I don't remember the sequence), so I still need to go back and try my real antenna instead of the rubber duckie. I know I have Walt's posts about how to block wind and cockpit noise from a headset boom mic, but all of that will have to wait until I have the time and interest to fool with a @#$%& radio again. It's just a distraction and a pain to fly with radios and I'm going to fight it tooth and toenail, and be darned if I use one when I fly to Brodhead this summer. It takes a lot of the fun and focus out of my flying.Oscar Zuniga"mostly NORDO and proud of it!"San Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts

Original Posted By: "jbveazey.7ok(at)netzero.net"
How far from Tulsa?JohnSent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Jim Markle
Thanks for the comments so far Sounds like strenght is not a problem but maybe the weight Dick do you think you could share how Allen made his if he didn't use a steel stripin the middle? ThanksCarsonRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 00:19:40 -0500 (GMT-05:00)

Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood strutsThere are several Jims on the list. I am Jim Ballew and live at Collinsville, OK, 5 miles north of Owasso. JimIn a message dated 1/6/2008 7:45:20 P.M. Central Standard Time, jbveazey.7ok(at)netzero.net writes:Jim, What part of Oklahoma do you live in? I live in Harrah, Oklahoma Jim Veazey______________________________________________________________Hate your job? Click here to start a rewarding career in Human Resources._ (http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL ... g9p1b9Aii/) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... ___Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: wood strutsDate: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 09:23:57 -0500

Original Posted By: Bryan Lowe

Original Posted By: "carson"
CarsonI will check my photos when I get a chance, I know I've got lots of pics. Meanwhile there are a couple of pics on the Matronics photo share from Dec 17, 2001. Allan used 2 plys of Doug fir with as I recall a section of plywood between. For another beautiful job of wood struts, check out the cover of Sport Aviation Sept 2004. The scaled Jenny was at OSH in 2006. I looked it over carefully, it's better than the pics show. I am going to be building a set like that for my plane.Dick N.----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "jimd"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood strutsHarrah is 20 miles east from Oklahoma CityJim VeazeyHarrah, OK_____________________________________________________________Love Graphic Design? Find a school near you. Click Now.http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Newbie Introduction

Original Posted By: "Scott Schreiber"
Great idea to try it. But not all of them are the same size. My plane is an oddballno doubt (Biplane version of a Grega GN-1, but based on Pietenpol). I amabout the same size you said you are, slightly taller though, and fit in the cockpitof my plane, snuggly. The distance between the sides of the fuselage andthe sides of the passenger seat are just big enough for my legs, but not reallywide enough to fly comfortably, so I will be modifying the passenger seata bit, otherwise it fits.The front seats are about the same size, but typically much harder to get in. Ifyou have a wife that would be flying with you (or young secretary?) you mightwant to be sure that it will be sized for them as well.There is a youtube video of someone getting in to the front of a Pietenpol andits worth watching. The GN-1 is very similar, but has the wing up a bit higherto make it easier to get in. Mine has a lower wing with a walkway that shouldmake it much easier to get in. Quite a few folks have made their fuselages abit wider, and done things to make them more comfortable. Tony Bingelis's bookssuggest building a full size mockup of the cockpit. At first that sounds likea lot of wasted effort, but I think it is a good idea. Getting in to one thatis already built and taking notes would be more expedient.Good luck. If your not sure about the time commitment give some thought to findingone that is partially built but not complete. I came close to buying GaryEnneking's Pietenpol project, its been on barnstormers for a while (Jon Yungblutis selling it I think). There are a lot of unfinished projects, that have goodworkmanship, and lots of sweat and effort put in to them. While it would begreat to build every single part of the plane, not that many people have thetime, but one that is well underway could be finished. (Just looking around atthem could give you a number of cockpits to try out.)JimRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

Original Posted By: jbveazey.7ok(at)netzero.net
Jim,That was me in the yellow GN-1 at Thompson. I didn't build my GN-1...just bought it. I would love to build one eventually though. We'll see you around.Steve Ruse ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Billy McCaskill"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout...This is a multi-part message in MIME format.________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts

Original Posted By: Gary Boothe
To: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Thanks, Gary. I will accept your humility with a = grain of salt! Your beautiful workmanship attests to your = abilities! The point about laminating to avoid = wood defects is well taken, I will follow suit. After computing the costs of = the metal struts, I am leaning towards the wood struts! As far as the = spars go, they were included in the wood I got with the Sky Scout package; = they are spruce. But rather than the 1" thickness, they are 3/4", I think I = will sandwich then with two pieces of 1/8" birch plywood to get the 1" (so = they fit the ribs). The Hughes Hardwood = place in Chico had beautiful parallel grain fir that would have made beautiful = spars, cheap, too. Next time I am in Chico, I will check out the = hickory. The ash seems to be really dense/heavy (stronger than hickory?). I = will try to look it up. Thanks for the response. And yes, I = have referenced Chris's web site and printed many photos.... but it makes my eyes and = brain hurt! Ray ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Douwe Blumberg"
Douwe,Thanks for the response. But has anyone used aluminum struts. ACS sells streamlined aluminum in maximum lengths of 6', if I am reading their catalogue correctly. I am sure they are available somewhere else in longer lengths.Congratulations on your Air Camper's sign-off and flight, if I am remembering correctly. I have not seen the pictures that everyone else is referencing, did I miss something?Thanks,Ray KrauseN51YX, Waiex, TD, Jab 3300 (1197), AeroCarb, Sensinich 54X62 wood prop, Dynon D-180, Garmin SL-30, 327, 296, 169 hrs.----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: santiago morete

Original Posted By: Michael Perez

Original Posted By: "K5YAC"
I think that Larry Williams is using the aluminum streamline tubing for his struts.I remember asking him at Brodhead this past year where he got the tubing,and I wrote down the source on a little notepad that I had with me, and I havesince misplaced the notepad somewhere.--------Billy McCaskillUrbana, ILtailfeathers almost doneRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: one more view laminating struts

Original Posted By: Jim Markle
Oh crap! Not I get it... the VACUUM BAGGING demonstration. over and over and over and over ... LOL!--------Mark - working on wingsRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 12:31:28 -0600 (GMT-06:00)

Original Posted By: Jim Markle

Original Posted By: gboothe5(at)comcast.net
Gary,Thanks for the information. If using the 3/4" spar material, would I still rout out the spar as shown in the plans? Are you building a Sky Scout?Ray Krause ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Jim Markle"
Jim,This is great information, thanks! This makes the aluminum struts a lot more reasonable... and lighter!Thanks,Ray KrauseN51YX, Waiex, TD, Jab 3300 (1197), AeroCarb, Sensinich 54X62 wood prop, Dynon D-180, Garmin SL-30, 327, 296, 169 hrs. and building the Sky Scout----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Billy McCaskill"
Thanks, Billy.Maybe Larry will respond to this thread. Jim Markle sent me the source for the aluminum struts, looks very good.Ray Krause----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Ray Krause"
Negative.Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: "Billy McCaskill"
Again I have to say absolutely! don't forget that stainpenetrates into the wood. This means that the softestpart of the wood takes in the most and the harder partsthe least. This can reverse the grain pattern and lookstrange, especialy on softwoods like Spruce. Thedepth and pattern of natural colour dissappears too.Clif> Jerry,>> You're welcomed! I did not use any stain. I think most woods are beautiful> without it! My 'varnish' is Min-Wax Urethane Spar Varnish.>> Gary Boothe________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts

Original Posted By: "Clif Dawson"
It was indeed Carlson Aircraft where Larry told me that he got his aluminum struttubing from. I found my notepad this afternoon...--------Billy McCaskillUrbana, ILtailfeathers almost doneRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

Original Posted By: pietn38b(at)aol.com
>To:pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts>>>Jim, >What part of Oklahoma do you live in? >I live in Harrah, Oklahoma >Jim Veazey >>_____________________________________________________________>Hate your job? Click here to start a rewarding career in Human Resources. >>________________________________________________________________________________