Brodhead Pietenpol Association

Original Posted By: Richard DeCosta
Subject: Pietenpol-List: well, that does it>I just saw my life flash before my eyes... I was sanding one of the>cross pieces on the floor of my Piet, which was glued into place, I>thought, and the blasted thing CAME OFF!!! This is a piece that I had>glued in and considered done!! Holy *&%$!! How can I possibly get in>this thing and fly it?? Granted there were no gussets on it yet, but>holy &%$!!>>How can I ever be sure of any of the 100's of other joints I've already>done?? I've had my share of setbacks in this project, but this takes>the cake...>>Where's that Aircraft Shopper mag I had the other day...>>===>"Lady, you want me to answer you if this old airplane is safe to fly? Justhow in the world do you think it got to be this old?" - Jim Tavenner>---------------------------------------------------------->http://www.AirCamper.org - A Low 'n Slow Online Community!>---------------------------------------------------------->My homepage: http://www.AirCamper.org/w3builder>>___ ... __________

Original Posted By: jmcnarry(at)techplus.com (John McNarry)
Subject: Pietenpol-List: well, that does it>I just saw my life flash before my eyes... I was sanding one of the>cross pieces on the floor of my Piet, which was glued into place, I>thought, and the blasted thing CAME OFF!!! This is a piece that I had>glued in and considered done!! Holy *&%$!! How can I possibly get in>this thing and fly it?? Granted there were no gussets on it yet, but>holy &%$!!>>How can I ever be sure of any of the 100's of other joints I've already>done?? I've had my share of setbacks in this project, but this takes>the cake...>>Where's that Aircraft Shopper mag I had the other day...>>===>"Lady, you want me to answer you if this old airplane is safe to fly? Justhow in the world do you think it got to be this old?" - Jim Tavenner>---------------------------------------------------------->http://www.AirCamper.org - A Low 'n Slow Online Community!>---------------------------------------------------------->My homepage: http://www.AirCamper.org/w3builder>>___ ... __________

Original Posted By: Earl Myers
Subject: Pietenpol-List: well, that does it>I just saw my life flash before my eyes... I was sanding one of the>cross pieces on the floor of my Piet, which was glued into place, I>thought, and the blasted thing CAME OFF!!! This is a piece that I had>glued in and considered done!! Holy *&%$!! How can I possibly get in>this thing and fly it?? Granted there were no gussets on it yet, but>holy &%$!!>>How can I ever be sure of any of the 100's of other joints I've already>done?? I've had my share of setbacks in this project, but this takes>the cake...>>Where's that Aircraft Shopper mag I had the other day...>>===>"Lady, you want me to answer you if this old airplane is safe to fly? Justhow in the world do you think it got to be this old?" - Jim Tavenner>---------------------------------------------------------->http://www.AirCamper.org - A Low 'n Slow Online Community!>---------------------------------------------------------->My homepage: http://www.AirCamper.org/w3builder>>___ ... __________

Original Posted By:>> Richard DeCosta
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fw: well, that does it>It was a cross piece directly under the front of the rear seat. Thats>what freaked me out most. I'm still kicking myself for the 2-piece>floor.>>--- walter evans wrote:>> Richard,>> Which piece was it? When you said cross piece, I figure that the>> floor>> isn't glued yet. I found that when you pull the rear of the fuselage>> together, it pivots at a point near the rear seat. tries to pull>> everything>> forward of it and aft of it apart. Once complete, it should be OK.>> What glue are you using? I'm using T-88. and follow their tips by>> adding>> glue to the end grains first, to give them a few extra seconds to>> soak in>> the soaking in is the strength) and not to draw the glue away from>> the>> final joint. Always check for a small fillet of glue around the>> joint the>> next day, to get the feel of the right amount.>> Which piece was it?>> walt>> -----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Adolfo Pando
I just saw my life flash before my eyes... I was sanding one of thecross pieces on the floor of my Piet, which was glued into place, Ithought, and the blasted thing CAME OFF!!! This is a piece that I hadglued in and considered done!! Holy *&%$!! How can I possibly get inthis thing and fly it?? Granted there were no gussets on it yet, butholy &%$!!How can I ever be sure of any of the 100's of other joints I've alreadydone?? I've had my share of setbacks in this project, but this takesthe cake...Where's that Aircraft Shopper mag I had the other day...==="Lady, you want me to answer you if this old airplane is safe to fly? Just howin the world do you think it got to be this old?" - Jim Tavenner----------------------------------------------------------http://www.AirCamper.org - A Low 'n Slow Online Community!----------------------------------------------------------My homepage: http://www.AirCamper.org/w3builder_____ ... __________

Original Posted By: walter evans
RichIf the piece you are talking about was ONLY glued on the END grain, I really would not expect there to be much strength....if any. All the strength comes from the glue seeping into the grain and adhering to the fibers which run lengthwise.To be sure, make up a test joint properly glued and gusseted. When it does not come apart, you'll sleep better!Best of luck!Steve________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Richard DeCosta
Richard, Which piece was it? When you said cross piece, I figure that the floorisn't glued yet. I found that when you pull the rear of the fuselagetogether, it pivots at a point near the rear seat. tries to pull everythingforward of it and aft of it apart. Once complete, it should be OK.What glue are you using? I'm using T-88. and follow their tips by addingglue to the end grains first, to give them a few extra seconds to soak in the soaking in is the strength) and not to draw the glue away from thefinal joint. Always check for a small fillet of glue around the joint thenext day, to get the feel of the right amount.Which piece was it?walt-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Richard DeCosta
Ooops! Did you sand the ends of the cross pieces? I haven't had any of minecome off. I have been told that you should always use fresh cuts and neversand the ends before glueing. The gussets add most of the strength. Endgrain glue joints don't have much strength and therefore the reason scharfejoints are used.-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By:> Richard DeCosta
It was a cross piece directly under the front of the rear seat. Thatswhat freaked me out most. I'm still kicking myself for the 2-piecefloor.--- walter evans wrote:> Richard,> Which piece was it? When you said cross piece, I figure that the> floor> isn't glued yet. I found that when you pull the rear of the fuselage> together, it pivots at a point near the rear seat. tries to pull> everything> forward of it and aft of it apart. Once complete, it should be OK.> What glue are you using? I'm using T-88. and follow their tips by> adding> glue to the end grains first, to give them a few extra seconds to> soak in> the soaking in is the strength) and not to draw the glue away from> the> final joint. Always check for a small fillet of glue around the> joint the> next day, to get the feel of the right amount.> Which piece was it?> walt> -----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Richard DeCosta
Richard,Relax-Thats not uncommon - a glued butt-joint stinks. I've had them break off ,too. Check out Tony Bingelis' book (cant remember the name but will get youpage number - hell, I'll fax you the page) The main point is to hold it inplace until you can get the gussetts (ie; floor board and sides) in place.A two-piece floor is not the end of the world. If you will feel moreconfident , do like one person suggested, put a six inch gussett (3/32) overthe lap joint, glue it heavily, and I bet it will do just fine. I didEXACTLY that. The main function of that floor board is to prevent"parallellogramming" or the tendency to flex the fuselage sideways -creating a parrellellogram (hence the name). You should be just fine likeyou are.I'm not a aerospace engineer- I just slept at a Motel 6 :>)trust your gut. You will have a fine airplane - based on the level ofscrutiny youve already shown.Bertbwm(at)planttel.net-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: mboynton(at)excite.com
This also brings to mind another suggestion in the building wood aircraftbooks: do a test joint and set it aside. Later, when all glue is securelycured, put it in a vice and "stress test it". Bend it until it breaks, and ifthe wood breaks before the glue, you should feel secure in the batch of glue.You might also do a couple of joints, one lap and one butt and test them in afew days. You'll probably break the butt joint on the glue line and the lapjoint will tear the wood and not break at the glue. This will probably giveyou a lot more confidence in all of the other joints that you have gluedalready. Also recommended is to save sample joints from each glue batch andgive them the "stress test" five years down the road.The building with wood books suggest:If you sand at a joint to be glued, that it must be scraped as clean aspossible. The sanding fills the pores and this must be gotten out for goodglue penetration. this also goes for scarfed joints that are done with asander instead of planed. A good scraper is the edge of a piece of glass(careful) or grind the edge of a putty knife or other thin piece of steelsquare and sharp. Quality wood finishing tool suppliers sell pieces of steelthat have flat and different curved shapes for scraping a final finish onwood. You only need a flat scraper. Drag it across the sanded joint and youwill get a smoother piece of wood than you thought possible across the endgrain.Scarfing joints, 8:1 or higher. It is important to get two flat matchingfaces that will join without voids.Lap piece of plywood over any butt joints and glue. Make the lapped piece15-20 times the thickness of the joint, that is for 1/8th inch thick ply, a twoinch lap would be good, 16 X 1/8 = 2.You're probably much, much better off than you feel right now. Just stop atthis point and evaluate how you have done all of the many joints and test alittle. You should have peace of mind when you're done. If not, contactEAA technical advisor and go through an evaluation of your plane with him.Good luck,Mike BellColumbia,SC________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Gary Gower
RichardAfter reading your original message I had a number of comments I was tempted to make but decided to first scroll through the other replies. I'm glad I did. They answered every single thing I had planned to say...and quite likely with more clarity. I think one very important thing came out in this exchange...your willingness to admit to the glue-joint failure and to seek advise. Every response was right on and the number of responses shows the kind of support that is out there for all of us. I can only repeat what a few others said. Don't beat yourself up over this or carry lingering doubts. Just follow their very good advice, and be cautious with all further gluing. I have seen plenty of shoddy workmanship flying around and I shake my head in disbelief, But, sight unseen, I'd lay odds your workmanship will put the average builder in the shade.. glDon Hicks ________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Richard DeCosta
Richard; Don't panic ref this stick coming loose without being gusseted! I don'teven bother with the end grain issue. I just dabT-88 on the end to seal itthen glue it in place with the gussets. The surface adhesion with thegussets is where the stress travels to & fro so to speak. Having a nicetight fit with the ends of the x-bracing does help to keep the whole thingfrom making strange noises when you pull the tail post parts together.Someone on here said to have the floor and seat in BEFORE you pull the thingtogether. That is so correct! FROM THE SEAT FORWARD, you must have the thingall together, sides, gussets ,x-braces, floor as the seatback area is goingto be the pivot point. As I have said about my Scout before, when I pulledit together at the tail, it was an eye opener as it was 3" wider at the seatback than plans and is some 18" shorter depending on the version of theA/C.....It was talking to me alot but it was all glued together forward ofthe seatback and WELL cured so no problem........Earl Myers-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Bert & Nancy Conoly
> Subject: well, that does it> > > >I just saw my life flash before my eyes... I was sanding one of the> >cross pieces on the floor of my Piet, which was glued into place, I> >thought, and the blasted thing CAME OFF!!! This is a piece that I> had> >glued in and considered done!! Holy *&%$!! How can I possibly get> in> >this thing and fly it?? Granted there were no gussets on it yet, but> >holy &%$!!> >> >How can I ever be sure of any of the 100's of other joints I've> already> >done?? I've had my share of setbacks in this project, but this takes> >the cake...> >> >Where's that Aircraft Shopper mag I had the other day...> >> >===> >"Lady, you want me to answer you if this old airplane is safe to> fly? Just> how in the world do you think it got to be this old?" - Jim Tavenner> >----------------------------------------------------------> >http://www.AirCamper.org - A Low 'n Slow Online Community!> >----------------------------------------------------------> >My homepage: http://www.AirCamper.org/w3builder> >> >> > ===http://www.AirCamper.org/w3builder_____ ... __________

Original Posted By: Richard DeCosta
>> Subject: well, that does it>>>>>> >I just saw my life flash before my eyes... I was sanding one of the>> >cross pieces on the floor of my Piet, which was glued into place, I>> >thought, and the blasted thing CAME OFF!!! This is a piece that I>> had>> >glued in and considered done!! Holy *&%$!! How can I possibly get>> in>> >this thing and fly it?? Granted there were no gussets on it yet, but>> >holy &%$!!>> >>> >How can I ever be sure of any of the 100's of other joints I've>> already>> >done?? I've had my share of setbacks in this project, but this takes>> >the cake...>> >>> >Where's that Aircraft Shopper mag I had the other day...>> >>> >===>> >"Lady, you want me to answer you if this old airplane is safe to>> fly? Just>> how in the world do you think it got to be this old?" - Jim Tavenner>> >---------------------------------------------------------->> >http://www.AirCamper.org - A Low 'n Slow Online Community!>> >---------------------------------------------------------->> >My homepage: http://www.AirCamper.org/w3builder>> >>> >>>>>>>===>http://www.AirCamper.org/w3builder>>___ ... __________