Brodhead Pietenpol Association

Original Posted By:
I quote, Bernard Pietenpol if the wood you'll usingbends without being steamed then it's probably notsuitable for airplane construction.Russell----- Original Message -----________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By:> GREA738(at)aol.com
This has "jogged" my memory! A couple months ago Norm on "Yankee Workshop"was making a bent oak coat rack -- when they pulled the slats out of thesteamer, they had ONLY 45 sec to get them in the jig. We might have alittle extra time due to the nature of our bends -- the oak was being bentinto a "figure 8" -- but I'd sure try to get rib strip in posistion 30 - 60sec. after it came out of the "cooker"As always, know where to steal good ideas!Mike ConklingPretty Prairie, KSP.S. I'm looking forward to connecting some names & faces at Benton nextweekend! See ya there!

Original Posted By: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Walt,Thanks for the response, checked with a boatbuilder friend who dropped over to "review" my bending techniques. Steaming time & process was OK (live steam, one hour/inch of thickness) but I was a little to casual moving the wood from the steamer to the bend jig. He felt that with the temperature in my shop (air conditioned, like to keep it cool & dry) whatever the steam softens was hardening before the strip was fastened in the jig. Live & learn!Denis________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: TomTravis(at)aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib springback>Guys,>>I have a dumb question about ribs. On drawing #5 of the Pietenpol plans it>shows a 1" spruce wedge on top of the front spar. On the supplemental>drawing it appears that the gussets in that area go over the spar. Is this>correct? Do the gussets ride on top of the spar and replace the wedge?>>> Thanks,>>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: TomTravis(at)aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib springback>Walt,>>Thanks for the info. I'll start gluing the first rib tonight.>>> Tom________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: DonanClara(at)aol.com
Guys,I have a dumb question about ribs. On drawing #5 of the Pietenpol plans it shows a 1" spruce wedge on top of the front spar. On the supplemental drawing it appears that the gussets in that area go over the spar. Is this correct? Do the gussets ride on top of the spar and replace the wedge? Thanks,________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: TomTravis(at)aol.com
Tom,Thats the way I took it. They improved the procedure. Think they still callout wedge on the rear. Right now I'm storing the fuse in the back room tomake way for the wings.All ribs done, spars routed, just have to move the table into the wing mode.Pretty soon I'll be a " wing expert".walt-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: walter evans
Walt,Thanks for the info. I'll start gluing the first rib tonight. Tom________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: TomTravis(at)aol.com
Tom,One more thought( well two) When cutting gussets be aware of the grain in the ply.......and When applying the gusset that you first spoke about ( going over the topof the front spar). What I did last week, I'm just ready to lay out thewing, is to make the area that will sit on top of the spar, a little low soyou have to file/sand out the height to get a nice fit to the top of thespar. I used a "dummy" spar to lay in each spot, and draw a line to the top, and file it out. Didn't take long, and made for a nicer job. Ribs won'tbe flopping on the spars.walt-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
Good tip, Walt. Thanks.Tom________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Michael Brusilow
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib springback>EARL,>I disagree. The reason it wasn't written up by Bernard , is that it wasn't>invented for another 40 years or so. But it is written up in the T-88specs>. Doesn't seem right but it works great. On my first project , Fisher404,>it's really the only way that the leading edge ply can be fitted.(Very thin>ply with a radical bend) not only does soaking the wood make it flexible,>you can grip it better.>Try making some test pieces of wet and dry joints,,,,you'll be surprised.>One of the reasons I used T-88 is that I build in a damp basement.>Nothing has blown off the 404 yet.>walt>-----Original Message----->From: Earl Myers >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Date: Sunday, September 05, 1999 12:22 PM>Subject: Re: Rib springback>>>>Without any Six Sigma/Iso9001 testing being done, I would say the wet>>capstrip getting glued is NOT a good practice........to me it wouldn'tmake>>good sense as the drying/shrinking/expanding is going on. I can't say WHY>it>>wouldn't be good except if that was a better way, it would have been>written>>up and we'd be reading about it long before now. Let me sleep at night by>>you saying you will do them DRY, OK?>>Earl Myers, 11 wing panels under the belt (dry)>>-----Original Message----->>From: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com >>To: Pietenpol Discussion >>Date: Sunday, September 05, 1999 2:45 AM>>Subject: Re: Rib springback>>>>>>>In a message dated 9/4/99 11:37:23 AM Central Daylight Time,>>>hpvs(at)southwind.net writes:>>>>>>>>Workshop" was making a bent oak coat rack -- when they pulled the slats>out>>>of the>>> steamer, they had ONLY 45 sec to get them in the jig. We might have a>>> little extra time due to the nature of our bends -- the oak was being>bent>>> into a "figure 8" -- but I'd sure try to get rib strip in posistion 30 ->>60>>> sec. after it came out of the "cooker">>> >>>>>>>>This brings up another question I have been pondering. What are the>>>potential adverse effects of gluing while the capstrip is high inmoisture>>>content after steaming or soaking? I remember in college, we testedglued>>>wood joints and recorded their adhesion properties and tried to correlate>>>that to the moisture content. There was an optimum moisture contentwhich>>I>>>think was around 12 to 14%. But that was a long time ago and I cant>>remember>>>what the glue was. Seems like it was something like Carpenter's wood>glue.>>>Anyway....I've been wondering if anyone has comments about gluing wet>wood.>>>>>>TerryB>>>>>>>>>>>>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: leonstefanhutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib springback>In a message dated 9/4/99 11:37:23 AM Central Daylight Time,>hpvs(at)southwind.net writes:>>Workshop" was making a bent oak coat rack -- when they pulled the slats out>of the> steamer, they had ONLY 45 sec to get them in the jig. We might have a> little extra time due to the nature of our bends -- the oak was being bent> into a "figure 8" -- but I'd sure try to get rib strip in posistion 30 -60> sec. after it came out of the "cooker"> >>>>This brings up another question I have been pondering. What are the>potential adverse effects of gluing while the capstrip is high in moisture>content after steaming or soaking? I remember in college, we tested glued>wood joints and recorded their adhesion properties and tried to correlate>that to the moisture content. There was an optimum moisture content whichI>think was around 12 to 14%. But that was a long time ago and I cantremember>what the glue was. Seems like it was something like Carpenter's wood glue.>Anyway....I've been wondering if anyone has comments about gluing wet wood.>>TerryB________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib springback>In a message dated 9/4/99 11:37:23 AM Central Daylight Time,>hpvs(at)southwind.net writes:>>Workshop" was making a bent oak coat rack -- when they pulled the slats out>of the> steamer, they had ONLY 45 sec to get them in the jig. We might have a> little extra time due to the nature of our bends -- the oak was being bent> into a "figure 8" -- but I'd sure try to get rib strip in posistion 30 -60> sec. after it came out of the "cooker"> >>>>This brings up another question I have been pondering. What are the>potential adverse effects of gluing while the capstrip is high in moisture>content after steaming or soaking? I remember in college, we tested glued>wood joints and recorded their adhesion properties and tried to correlate>that to the moisture content. There was an optimum moisture content whichI>think was around 12 to 14%. But that was a long time ago and I cantremember>what the glue was. Seems like it was something like Carpenter's wood glue.>Anyway....I've been wondering if anyone has comments about gluing wet wood.>>TerryB>>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: TomTravis(at)aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib springback>Walt,>>I bought the supplemental rib drawing and traced it to build my rib jig.>After the first (only, so far) rib came out I realized the rear spar - 1"X4>3/4" - won't fit. Back to square one with a new jig. Anyone else have this>problem?>>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Bert & Nancy Conoly
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib springback>Walt,>>I bought the supplemental rib drawing and traced it to build my rib jig.>After the first (only, so far) rib came out I realized the rear spar - 1"X4>3/4" - won't fit. Back to square one with a new jig. Anyone else have this>problem?>>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Michael Brusilow
In a message dated 9/4/99 11:37:23 AM Central Daylight Time, hpvs(at)southwind.net writes:>This brings up another question I have been pondering. What are the potential adverse effects of gluing while the capstrip is high in moisture content after steaming or soaking? I remember in college, we tested glued wood joints and recorded their adhesion properties and tried to correlate that to the moisture content. There was an optimum moisture content which I think was around 12 to 14%. But that was a long time ago and I cant remember what the glue was. Seems like it was something like Carpenter's wood glue. Anyway....I've been wondering if anyone has comments about gluing wet wood.TerryB________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Earl Myers
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib springback>Terry,>The spec. on T-88 says it works just as well on wet wood as dry.>walt>-----Original Message----->From: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Date: Sunday, September 05, 1999 2:44 AM>Subject: Re: Rib springback>>>>In a message dated 9/4/99 11:37:23 AM Central Daylight Time,>>hpvs(at)southwind.net writes:>>>>>Workshop" was making a bent oak coat rack -- when they pulled the slatsout>>of the>> steamer, they had ONLY 45 sec to get them in the jig. We might have a>> little extra time due to the nature of our bends -- the oak was beingbent>> into a "figure 8" -- but I'd sure try to get rib strip in posistion 30 ->60>> sec. after it came out of the "cooker">> >>>>>>This brings up another question I have been pondering. What are the>>potential adverse effects of gluing while the capstrip is high in moisture>>content after steaming or soaking? I remember in college, we tested glued>>wood joints and recorded their adhesion properties and tried to correlate>>that to the moisture content. There was an optimum moisture content which>I>>think was around 12 to 14%. But that was a long time ago and I cant>remember>>what the glue was. Seems like it was something like Carpenter's woodglue.>>Anyway....I've been wondering if anyone has comments about gluing wetwood.>>>>TerryB>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: del magsam
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib springback>Without any Six Sigma/Iso9001 testing being done, I would say the wet>capstrip getting glued is NOT a good practice........to me it wouldn't make>good sense as the drying/shrinking/expanding is going on. I can't say WHYit>wouldn't be good except if that was a better way, it would have beenwritten>up and we'd be reading about it long before now. Let me sleep at night by>you saying you will do them DRY, OK?>Earl Myers, 11 wing panels under the belt (dry)>-----Original Message----->From: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Date: Sunday, September 05, 1999 2:45 AM>Subject: Re: Rib springback>>>>In a message dated 9/4/99 11:37:23 AM Central Daylight Time,>>hpvs(at)southwind.net writes:>>>>>Workshop" was making a bent oak coat rack -- when they pulled the slatsout>>of the>> steamer, they had ONLY 45 sec to get them in the jig. We might have a>> little extra time due to the nature of our bends -- the oak was beingbent>> into a "figure 8" -- but I'd sure try to get rib strip in posistion 30 ->60>> sec. after it came out of the "cooker">> >>>>>>This brings up another question I have been pondering. What are the>>potential adverse effects of gluing while the capstrip is high in moisture>>content after steaming or soaking? I remember in college, we tested glued>>wood joints and recorded their adhesion properties and tried to correlate>>that to the moisture content. There was an optimum moisture content which>I>>think was around 12 to 14%. But that was a long time ago and I cant>remember>>what the glue was. Seems like it was something like Carpenter's woodglue.>>Anyway....I've been wondering if anyone has comments about gluing wetwood.>>>>TerryB>>>>>>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: walter evans
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rib springback>Earl...I am leaning toward the dry method.>>Leon...I am considering using a preliminary shaping jig as you mentioned.I>remember seeing a pattern for one in the BPA news a long time ago.>>I am also considering not soaking or steaming. I have been playing with>these cedar sticks and they are a lot more flexible than spruce or douglas>fir. Perhaps they'd glue up just fine without soaking or steaming.>>Terry B>>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
Terry,The spec. on T-88 says it works just as well on wet wood as dry.walt-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: walter evans
I used T-88 on wet wood laminations and it worked fine.John W-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
Without any Six Sigma/Iso9001 testing being done, I would say the wetcapstrip getting glued is NOT a good practice........to me it wouldn't makegood sense as the drying/shrinking/expanding is going on. I can't say WHY itwouldn't be good except if that was a better way, it would have been writtenup and we'd be reading about it long before now. Let me sleep at night byyou saying you will do them DRY, OK?Earl Myers, 11 wing panels under the belt (dry)-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Earl Myers
Earl...I am leaning toward the dry method. Leon...I am considering using a preliminary shaping jig as you mentioned. I remember seeing a pattern for one in the BPA news a long time ago. I am also considering not soaking or steaming. I have been playing with these cedar sticks and they are a lot more flexible than spruce or douglas fir. Perhaps they'd glue up just fine without soaking or steaming. Terry B________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: BARNSTMR(at)aol.com
Terry; THANK YOU! Stick with a known standard & you will do OK. What kind of Cedarwas this again?Earl Myers-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Earl Myers
EARL,I disagree. The reason it wasn't written up by Bernard , is that it wasn'tinvented for another 40 years or so. But it is written up in the T-88 specs. Doesn't seem right but it works great. On my first project , Fisher 404,it's really the only way that the leading edge ply can be fitted.(Very thinply with a radical bend) not only does soaking the wood make it flexible,you can grip it better.Try making some test pieces of wet and dry joints,,,,you'll be surprised.One of the reasons I used T-88 is that I build in a damp basement.Nothing has blown off the 404 yet.walt-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: walter evans
Walter; OK, I will give it a try! I use T-88 exclusively but WASN'T aware of thewet use issue.......Next time I will read the directions..........Earl Myers-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: del magsam
Walt,I bought the supplemental rib drawing and traced it to build my rib jig. After the first (only, so far) rib came out I realized the rear spar - 1"X 4 3/4" - won't fit. Back to square one with a new jig. Anyone else have this problem?________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: walter evans
SEEMS TO ME A PRELIMINARY SHAPING JIG IS THE WAY TO GO. yOU CAN DO SIX OR MORE AT THE SAME TIME AND LET THEM DRY. i HAVE DONE THAT FOR YEARS AND HAVE NEVER EXPERIENCED ANY SPRINGBACK AT ALL.________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: TomTravis(at)aol.com
Tom,As a matter of fact, I ran into that TODAY. I chose to notch out the ribcap ( and not to bevel the spar) .Laid out one full wing with ribs on spars.walt-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Earl Myers
Walt,Thanks for the info. I'm just about done with #2 rib jig and I think the problem is that the bottom of the rib needs to be a bit lower. That measures correctly with the original plans. I made a spar section to be sure everything fits on this one. ________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: TomTravis(at)aol.com
Tom, Was the spar opening too wide or too small? 1/16 inch ply shims couldbe in order if your spar openings are a bit big..... more than one way toskin a cat!If the rib's spar openings are too small, maybe just "refine" your jig toopen up the spar opening a little?Oh well! This building thing is full of challenges,. Nice Labor Day All..wish I had mine flyin.Bert bwm(at)planttel.net-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: GREA738(at)aol.com
Bert,The spar opening was too small - about 1/8" too small. Since I had only made one rib and wasn't too satisfied with it I decided to make another jib and start over. By making a spar cross section I can check for fit this time. Another learning experience.________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: TomTravis(at)aol.com
Tom,A suggestion, incorporate two dummy spar forms into your rib jig.DG________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Earl Myers
DG,Thanks, I've done that with the second jig. Now you tell me! Tom________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Earl Myers
my rib drawing was off too. the spar spacing is 3/4inch different than what the plans and rib drawingspecs out in writing. I dont know how to change itand havnt got an answer from andrew yet.---TomTravis(at)aol.com wrote:>> Walt,> > I bought the supplemental rib drawing and traced itto build my rib jig. > After the first (only, so far) rib came out Irealized the rear spar - 1"X 4 > 3/4" - won't fit. Back to square one with a newjig. Anyone else have this > problem?> > > ________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Greg Estrada
> > Walt,> Thanks for the response, checked with a boatbuilder friend who droppedover > to "review" my bending techniques. Steaming time & process was OK (live > steam, one hour/inch of thickness) but I was a little to casual movingthe > wood from the steamer to the bend jig. He felt that with the temperaturein > my shop (air conditioned, like to keep it cool & dry) whatever the steam > softens was hardening before the strip was fastened in the jig. > Live & learn!> Denis________________________________________________________________________________