Brodhead Pietenpol Association

Original Posted By: lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
Folks;I was sitting thinking about Ernie Moreno's Piet, the one that's still for sale (Franklin powered), long nose, tail heavy. Ernie has 40 lb. of lead strapped to the engine mount up front, and flies the plane with the header tank full (flying off the wing tank) to help with balance. So here's the question (and it may be a repeat from the past): since there are controls in both cockpits, why not set up the front cockpit as the pilot's office and placard it for solo from FRONT SEAT only? That puts the pilot much closer to the CG. Besides the issue of it being easier to get in and out of the rear cockpit, why are Piets soloed from the rear when so many of them have tail heavy issues?Oscar ZunigaMedford, Oregonmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.netSend and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: mark boynton
Are these CG problems based on weight and ballance measurements or flight charicteristics?>From: "Oscar Zuniga" >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>Subject: Pietenpol-List: aft CG problems>Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 14:07:21>>>>Folks;>>I was sitting thinking about Ernie Moreno's Piet, the one that's still for>sale (Franklin powered), long nose, tail heavy. Ernie has 40 lb. of lead>strapped to the engine mount up front, and flies the plane with the header>tank full (flying off the wing tank) to help with balance. So here's the>question (and it may be a repeat from the past): since there are controls >in>both cockpits, why not set up the front cockpit as the pilot's office and>placard it for solo from FRONT SEAT only? That puts the pilot much closer>to the CG. Besides the issue of it being easier to get in and out of the>rear cockpit, why are Piets soloed from the rear when so many of them have>tail heavy issues?>>Oscar Zuniga>Medford, Oregon>mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com>website at http://www.flysquirrel.net>>>Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com>>________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 06:55:07 -0800 (PST)

Original Posted By: "Greg Cardinal"
Good questions Oscar,I would want to do a W&B on paper before I tried it for real.A picture of Gary and Mehlan's Piet at Brodhead, I have on my desk, lookslike the front pit is right on the CG, sure would look funny with onlysomeone in the front pit.There may be an issue with toe breaks, at least in the 1934 fuselage.Skip-----Original Message----- since there are controls in both cockpits, why not set up the front cockpit as the pilot's office and placard it for solo from FRONT SEAT only? why are Piets soloed from the rear when so many of them have tail heavy issues?Oscar ZunigaMedford, Oregon________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 09:06:11 -0600

Original Posted By: Jim Malley
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Original Posted By:> Jim Malley
*( Hint ( I have posted this before ), raise the tail to straight &level, let go, if the airplane teeters for a moment, the CG is good.)*Sorry, This theory is entirely dependent on the placement of the gear and probably should not be used to evaluate the C/G from one Piet to another!!>From: "Michael Brusilow" >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>To: >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aft CG problems>Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 08:52:20 -0500>>>>> ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: mark boynton

Original Posted By: "Michael Brusilow"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aft CG problemsIn a message dated 01/24/2002 7:53:57 AM Central Standard Time, mb-albany(at)worldnet.att.net writes:>Mike and (other flying listers) what weight is on your tailwheel ? Of course it would depend on your total empty weight and whether it is a long or short fuselage, but I'm curious about a ballpark figure for the Piet. My Buhl Bull Pup at an empty weight of about 570# had ten pounds on the tail. Don Hicks________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: DonanClara(at)aol.com
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Original Posted By: Gary Gower

Original Posted By: Kip & Beth Gardner

Original Posted By: "Tom & Michelle Brant"
Pieters,To simply raise the tail and find out how much weight is on it, (as ifdoing a weight and balance) seems to me to be dependent on where thelanding gear is placed.Think of it this way. If the gear is way foward, then the weight on thetailwheel would be greater, however, if the gear is way back toward thetail, then the weight on the tail is less. In fact it might even benegative! None of this has to do with where the CG of the plane is,only where the placement of the gear might be.John Dilatush, NX114DSalida, Colorado________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 20:58:40 -0800

Original Posted By: "Alan Swanson"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88 BafooneryTom, Where does it say to "let stand open for 30 to 40 minutes." My T-88 says to not mix more than will be used in 30 minutes.I built my Piet by gluing and making sure that the joints were completed and assembled within 30 minutes WITH NO OPEN TIME BEFORE ASSEMBLY.Cheers, JimNX499JB________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Tom- Not to worry. Those instructions are specifically for working with oakor other very porous wood where the wood will absorb the epoxy and possiblystarve the joint. The woods we are using don't have this problem. Justspread on the glue, clamp lightly to hold in place, and come back the nextday when it is cured. You'll be one glue joint closer to flight!Al SwansonMinnetonka-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Larry Neal

Original Posted By: "Jim Malley"
815 total weight with 4 lbs on the tail. Main gear placement is the ONLYthing that will have an effect on this.Chris bobka----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Larry Neal
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88 BafooneryHi again Tom,Put the glue; both resin and hardner in a pan of hot water for a few minutes. Practice will let you get it right for how you like to work. The heat makes it flow better and I use a 1/2" brush with short bristles to spread it on. If you use alcohol afterwards (like right away) and soak the brush in it you can actually reuse the brush several times before its too stiff.Cheers, Jim________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 23:05:58 -0600

Original Posted By: "Greg Cardinal"

Original Posted By: "Greg Cardinal"

Original Posted By: clif

Original Posted By: "Tom & Michelle Brant"

Original Posted By: "walter evans"
When you weigh an airplane for CG determinations, you HAVE to take the weight of the plane at each maingear, then the weight at the tailwheel in the flying position. These are where you weigh planes. But this isn't where the calculation stops.At this point, you have to know the distance (arm) of the maingear from the datum, and do the old weitght and balance calculations using WxA=M Weight x Arm = Moment. This, by the way is after you subtract any extra devices which got weighed which aren't normally part of the airplane(called Tare). Using the datum is what ties the weight at the gear to the actual CG on the airplane. If I remember correctly, the datum on the Piet is the LE of the wing.This is the only way to get the accurate weight and cg location of the plane.If this was already answered - my apologies, I'm catching up on email and am way behind.Gary MeadowsSpring, TXSend and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "Tom & Michelle Brant"
My 2 centavos on glueing,With all the talk of mixing containers, still the BEST way to mix it withoutwasting, is to mix on a saucer. The little circle in the middle where thecup goes is a perfect "dish" No lie, it's good for two reasons. First,is not to waste because after a few glueing sessions it's easy to"guesstimate" what you need.And second, there is no problem with getting equal quantities. Just puttwo equal length beads side by side without touching beads till you mix.Kind of hard to get quantities right when you are squirting into the bottomof a cup.Cleanup is also a breeze, just a wipe with a paper towel. By tomorrow theplate is hard and dry and ready to use again.Did all my mixing with the tongue depressors , just bite them on the end,and pull them in half.Did all the glueing on this Piet with about 1 1/2 Qt. kits Thats withhaving nice full, glue joints. Virtually no waste.walt----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Gary McNeel, Jr."

Original Posted By: "Ted Tuckerman"
Anybody know of a source for T-88 in Canada? I have tried Revy, HomeDepot, Home Hardware etc and they all look at me kind of funny. Whomakes it?Thanks,-=Ian=-________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "Ian Holland"
Ian:Try the manufacturer's web site at www.systemthree.comTed Tuckerman----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Gary Gower
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aft CG problemsHey Fisherman...you sound like a no-nonsense kind of guy..a man after my own heart...BUT, you had better find the mathematician who will help you do a full bore, FAA type weight and balance when it comes time for you formal inspection...they won't buy sawhorse balancing. Your plan should get you in the ballpark for engine positioning though. My 2c Don________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 08:10:14 -0800 (PST)

Original Posted By: Gary Gower

Original Posted By: "Christian Bobka"
Hi friends,A little more on (been there done that) experience: I was at a rumage sale and purchased two of those metal framed communityhall stacking chairs. The kind with the molded plywood seat bottom and back.I drilled out the rivets and now have two seat bottoms curved to fit a buttfor under $2.00. Takes care of that sharp front edge too. Tempra foam asBengalis suggests on top of that makes a good seat.John Mc________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "Michael Brusilow"
> >> >> >> >Folks;> >> >I was sitting thinking about Ernie Moreno's Piet, the one that's stillfor> >sale (Franklin powered), long nose, tail heavy. Ernie has 40 lb. of lead> >strapped to the engine mount up front, and flies the plane with theheader> >tank full (flying off the wing tank) to help with balance. So here's the> >question (and it may be a repeat from the past): since there are controls> >in> >both cockpits, why not set up the front cockpit as the pilot's office and> >placard it for solo from FRONT SEAT only? That puts the pilot muchcloser> >to the CG. Besides the issue of it being easier to get in and out of the> >rear cockpit, why are Piets soloed from the rear when so many of themhave> >tail heavy issues?> >> >Oscar Zuniga> >Medford, Oregon> >mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com> >website at http://www.flysquirrel.net> >> >> >Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com> >> >>>________________________________________________________________________________