Brodhead Pietenpol Association

Original Posted By: DonanClara(at)aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wood and wooden planesIn a message dated 1/26/02 9:23:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, cayecaulker(at)justice.com writes:>Would you mind posting the name of this glue ? I'm going to go see what I can find at ACE also, so far haven't found an ACE that had wood, so will be looking. I got a kick out of the "HOME DEPOT" comments. It really does seem that its the "PIET DEPOT" Do you have your plane finished ? Is your friend Ted building one too?I agree that this is a barnyard plane. Its made for those farmers that want to build something between haying and feeding the cows. And made to land in the hayfields. Good comments. I wish your comments would be written up with pictures. It would make a GREAT addition to an already massive amount of information on the PIET.-dennis the menace, in Tenn.________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Tim

Original Posted By: "Wayne McIntosh"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wood and wooden planesPieters,On this poly glue, I found some TITEBOND URETHANE glue that states it is completely waterproof. TITEBOND is the trade name for some products of the Franklin Company. Having been in the piano business, wood, glue and wire, for over 60 years I will stand on the box and give the highest rating to Franklin Products. Problem is I can't remember where I bought it. Anyone else out there with a memory problem? Corky in La heading for Florida in a few days. Hope I remember the way home ________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Fisherman Caye
Guess I offended some people's sensibilities? Glue of any kind between joints,if not kept under compression during the setting process, indeed can makea faulty joint. Just as valid for T 88 as any other kind from Home Depot. Thatis why you use a clamp, or a nail, or screw in the joint while it sets. I'll think about the mathematics of weight and balance. Probably do it, as abackup check on the more eyeball engineering method. Guess you will catch onto my sarcastic sense of humor after a while, as I'm a newbie on the list. Asto the saw horse? Yup! It will work. Used to put 1000 pounds of engines inoverhead trees, with trip wires, to drop on lumber thieves and roving killerbandidos in Central America. It works out fine. Sorry about the irreverance I show to due process and bureaucrats. Spent mylife without any handy to ever help me in strange parts of the world. Hard toget used to the bureaucrat rules and controls your life syndrome, back home.Might never get over my sense of self-reliance? The only ones I ever met, causedme untold grief and expense and their assistance wasn't worth a damn.On Sat, 26 January 2002, Fisherman Caye wrote:> > > > The glue is a polyurethane. Brand name Polybrand. My Home Depot pretty muchdoes not have any other glue. An expert just answered and said it is an excellentglue. Which I found out anyway in practice.> On the comment about an FAA Inspector and mathematical computation for weightand balance? Why would I need an FAA inspector? Never had one before andbeen flying off and on for 40 years, here and there in the world. ( Just jokingof course! Ha! Ha! )> Depends a lot where I get to test it! If it is out in the boondocks of theEverglades on some grass patch??? If at an airport with lots of rules, thenI guess one has to comply?> ------------------------------------------> > > On Sat, 26 January 2002, Dmott9(at)aol.com wrote:> > > > > > > In a message dated 1/26/02 9:23:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > cayecaulker(at)justice.com writes:> > > > > Anyway, Home Depot polyester glue is fine! Less work but stains the > > fingers for four days afterward until it wears off. >>> > > > Would you mind posting the name of this glue ? I'm going to go see what I can> > find at ACE also, so far haven't found an ACE that had wood, so will be > > looking. I got a kick out of the "HOME DEPOT" comments. It really does seem> > that its the "PIET DEPOT" > > > > Do you have your plane finished ? Is your friend Ted building one too?> > I agree that this is a barnyard plane. Its made for those farmers that want> > to build something between haying and feeding the cows. And made to land in> > the hayfields. Good comments. I wish your comments would be written up with> > pictures. It would make a GREAT addition to an already massive amount of > > information on the PIET.> > -dennis the menace, in Tenn.> > > > > > > FindLaw - Free Case Law, Jobs, Library, Community> http://www.FindLaw.com> Get your FREE @JUSTICE.COM email!> http://mail.Justice.com> > FindLaw - Free Case Law, Jobs, Library, Communityhttp://www.FindLaw.comGet your FREE @JUSTICE.COM email!http://mail.Justice.com ------- End of forwarded message -------FindLaw - Free Case Law, Jobs, Library, Communityhttp://www.FindLaw.comGet your FREE @JUSTICE.COM email!http://mail.Justice.com________________________________________________________________________________Date: 27 Jan 2002 06:33:44 -0800

Original Posted By: Fisherman Caye

Original Posted By: clif
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wood and wooden planesIn a message dated 1/27/02 9:09:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, cayecaulker(at)justice.com writes:>Ray, it would be helpful if you would only "quote" the portion of the messsage your replying to. Also, do you have the web site address again? I can't seem to get it to load now.________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 14:26:04 -0800

Original Posted By: "Kip & Beth Gardner"
Yep! The Gold Bug caused a lot of heart burn at Rockford when it used gatehinges and other hardware store parts. It was designed by an aeronauticalengineer BUT it didn't crash, it didn't burn.If the hardware or other materials are selected with the proper care for thetask at hand, then why not? Don't sell your hardware store stuff short. Manyhardware items have higher quality thancertified materials. We become stuck in a rut sometimes just because that'sthe way it was done 30 years ago. The use of 4130 steel is a good example.There are better, stronger, yet cheaper steels available today but we stillcontinue using the "tried and true" 4130. Why, because they aren't hardwarestore items and the aircraft supply places don't handle them.Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, OshkoshEditor, EAA Safety Programscgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.orgAlways looking for articles for the Experimenter----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Gary Gower

Original Posted By: Fisherman Caye

Original Posted By: Cy Galley
Actually, the "tried and true" was 1025 steel, not 4130 which was the "newkid on the block" and considered too uppity for serious aircraft builders.It's funny how the newer ideas are now the "old ways" that must be adheredto.----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Gary Gower
of course, the Flying Flea never flew worth a damned.----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Gene Rambo
Has anyone identified a reliable alternative to aircraft plywood? Soundslike Caye came out all right, but I don't think I can repeat his success.And I'm a little too underemployed to shell out hundreds for my fuselageplywood.Ken ChambersIn the early stagesAustin, Texas----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Larry Neal

Original Posted By: Kent Hallsten
Ken,I am using Hoop Pine for sides, leading edge and a lot of gussets. Theyadvertise in some on the homebuilding magazines. It is exterior grade. WhenI got it, was less $$ than aircraft stuff.Skip >Has anyone identified a reliable alternative to aircraft plywood? >Ken Chambers>In the early stages>Austin, Texas________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "Fisherman Caye"
----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: clif

Original Posted By: "Jack Phillips"
Wayne,Good thoughts! Anybody who has ever had to refuse a (heavy) kid a ride inthe summer due to his airplane's lack of load carrying ability will want tobuild his next plane as light as possible. Sometimes people get morecarried away with trying to build cheap than with trying to build light.The poor flying qualities resulting from heavy materials will be with youforever, long after the pleasure of saving a few dollars is forgotten. Ofcourse, as you point out, if you use cheap materials it probably won't lastthat long anyway.I have set myself a goal of trying to build mine for an empty weight of nomore than 620 lbs. This should be acheivable, since BHP built one with aFord for 610 lbs., and I'm using a Continental. Mike Cuy's weighs 632, andI haven't heard of one lately that is much lighter than his. I weighedeverything I have built so far the other day and estimated weights for theitems I know I will need to add and came up with 621 lbs. We'll see howclose I come to that (I'm sure it will be more, as I add things I haveforgotten). I've heard of Piets weighing as much as 800 lbs. I'll bet theyare real dogs on a hot day (and who can stand to fly one long on a coldday?).Jack Phillips Now back on the subject of hardware store stuff in an airplane. Firstand foremost weight in an airplane is bad period. Weight gets in an airplanea half ounce at a time. If you can find something in a hardware store thatis just as strong that will be just as dependable and is just as light asaircraft grade stuff then that is what should be used. If hardware storestuff is more heavy but just as strong you will pay the price when you flyyour plane that has a poor climb rate, longer takeoff and landing roll, lessrange( gotta leave the throttle wide open longer to get to altitude), higherstall speed, less payload and I could go on and on. I have a few friendsthat have 2 seat homebuilts that never carry a passenger because thairplanes are so heavy, on a hot day a passenger is not possible. Now I hopewe can agree that we would not use something that we knew was not as strongas the part specified in the plans. Now we have how long will it last? Imean why would you go to all of the trouble and time that it takes to builda plane if you thought it was not going to last you at least 20 years orWayne McIntosh Lafayette,IN________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Fisherman Caye
Hi Fisherman,You indicated that you saw a Hatz Biplane at the LaBelle airport. Myin-laws live just outside of LaBelle (Turkey Creek). Maybe we can gettogether next time I visit them. Don't think there is much similar betweena Hatz and a Piet, though. The Hatz has a welded steel tube fuselage and isvery similar in design and construction to a Waco Ten. It's a lot biggerthan a Pietenpol also.I asked Ted over in Naples what that compartment up front was for? Itmystified me! Once you close up, you cannot get to it.I'm using that space for a baggage compartment in mine, with an aluminumhinged door for access. Makes a big enough space for a tent, a pair ofsleeping bags and a duffel bag. I also made the floor of the compartmentremovable for access to the forward rudder pedals for maintenance.-------------------------------------------------------- Was looking at inclinometers, turn and banks in the catalogues. They runaround $35 or so. Can't I just use a ball bearing and plastic tube withwooden plugs in the end? Or a six inch carpenters level? For $3.Last year I bought a defunct T&B at Sun'n'Fun for about $10, then just cutthe back off of it and used it for the ball alone. I glued the needle incentered position so it looked better. Saved over a pound of weight too(gyros are heavy).-------------------------------------------------------- Comments welcome!Jack Phillips________________________________________________________________________________Date: 29 Jan 2002 05:35:58 -0800

Original Posted By: Fisherman Caye

Original Posted By: Larry Neal

Original Posted By: Larry Neal

Original Posted By: "D.Dale Johnson"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learn about the Flying Flea.

Original Posted By: Larry Neal
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learn about the Flying Flea.In a message dated 1/29/02 12:25:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, ggower_99(at)yahoo.com writes:>Very well said, and thank you for bringing this little plane to my attention. I am glad you are on this list, and happy you contribute.________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 22:23:02 -0600

Original Posted By: Fisherman Caye

Original Posted By: Fisherman Caye
Don Cooley wrote:Hey, folks' I think the Corvair is too much maligned! It was not a "bad" car, itwas a car that American drivers were not used to because of the differentweight distribution of a rear-engined car. In the hands of a competentdriver, it was and remains, an excellent car. If it hadn't have been forthat @#%%#@*% Mr. Nader and his open-mouth-insert-foot-never-mind-the-factspoliticking, the Corvair might have been one of Detroit's success stories,instead of the butt of a lot of ill-informed misinformation. By his logic,we should condemn all aircraft whose nose-wheel is mounted on the tail-post,because they are less stable on the ground than those with the nose-wheel infront. Think it over! Don CooleyI have to disagree. I owned a 1966 Corvair and found it to be an absolutedelight to drive. It cornered well, had plenty of pep (mine was the twincarburetor 110 hp version, with a "4-on-the-floor") and was economical. Itwas also a "bad" car. It was built of very shoddy materials and literallybegan falling apart in only three years. By the time it was three yearsold, with 39,000 miles on it, the floorboard had rusted through to the pointthat you could watch the road pass by underneath. The engine was wonderful,after I figured out that if I ran 50 wt Aeroshell in it the oil wouldn'tleak past the pushrod seals so badly. The fanbelt design was incrediblybad. The v-belt was required to bend 90 degrees each way transverse to thedirection of travel. I always had to carry two spare fanbelts with me,because if the pulleys got out of alignment and the original fanbelt broke,unless I spent several hours re-aligning the pulleys, the second belt wouldbreak within a couple of hundred miles. When I was studying MechanicalEngineering in college, they used the Corvair as an example of how NOT todesign a v-belt drive. (The Corvair could have successfully used theelectric fans now popular on Japanese cars).No, the Corvair was not a good car, if good means reliable service forhundreds of thousands of miles. It was not guilty of the flaws that theidiot Nader claimed. It was just a cheaply made car that had a few reallygood design ideas, and a few really bad ones. The materials were verypoor - a trait that GM brought to full fruition in the Vega.Jack Phillips________________________________________________________________________________Date: 30 Jan 2002 04:19:00 -0800

Original Posted By: Fisherman Caye
I ordered plans for the two-place HM-380 from a flea builder in New Zealandand studied them for a few weeks. Then I came across some accident reports.It looks like the center of gravity can still be an issue. One homebuiltHM -380 had been flying great for four years -- until he took a heavypassenger for a ride. Both the pilot and passenger were killed.A gorgeous example was featured in Sport Aviation a couple of years ago. Thearticle said it came out heavy and usually flies as a single place.I concluded that the design needs refinement. I am not experienced enough totake on a project like that.Ken ChambersIn the early stagesAustin, Texas----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Larry Neal
Anyone got any thoughts on good looking cowlings for my long-nose Pietenpol? I'm thinking of pressure cowlings vs eyebrows vs cylinders-in-the-wind. Any comments would be appreciated.LarryLarry,I think it is still possible to get a Pietenpol/Corvair cowl.Dwayne Tauba, who up until last year brought his gray and black Corvair Pietto Brodhead every year for 10 or 12 years has Pietenpol's actual cementmolds. He was selling cowls for $125.00 a couple years ago when I got mine.He was also selling cowls like the one on his Piet.The Pietenpol/Corvair cowl are like the cowl on the Last Original and the2nd to last original which ishttp://www.russellw.com/museums/oshkosh/photo_ ... p?PicID=13 atPioneer field the Oshkosh museum.I am not running a blower on my Corvair but plan to use the above cowl as apressure cowl.Skip________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 13:15:03 -0600

Original Posted By: Gary Gower

Original Posted By: "Fisherman Caye"
Fisherman, First I think that the 3.3 Chrysler engine weighs a whole lot more than150 pounds I do not know how much it weighs but my guess is 400 pounds +or-.It is too heavy for a Piet but I think it would make a nice airplane engine.They have flown planes with the 3.8 Ford and the 4.3 Chevrolet. But not inPiets that I know of. You do not want to limit the throttle opening, youwant to run wide open on takeoff and reduce to some economical powersetting for cruise. The reason you want to run wide open for takeoff is thatyou want the lightest engine that will give you the power to accelerate froma stop and get into a safe climb. If you limited the throttle opening youwould have a bigger engine than you needed and would be carrying the excessweight of the big engine. Also you would not be adding weight 1/2 ounce at atime but 100 pounds at a time. Also you must consider the engine weight thatthe plane is designed for. The 3.3 will give you all kinds of W&B problemsthat will either bust your saw horse or make your eyes gloss over. Then youhave the gross weight problem, I saw your picture on your web page and weboth wear the same size pants. Fat guys do not need heavy airplanes, I foundthat out the hard way. I understand that BHP was not as fat as me, Ed Heathnever weighed more than 140# in his life, Roger Mann who designed myRag-A-Muffin weighs 160#. I noticed at Oshkosh that the War Bird pilots arebuilt like us. The 3.3 needs to be in a plane that needs 150-170 HP andneeds a reduction drive so it can run at it's power range for takeoff. If Ibuild a Piet it will have a Corvair engine or a 65-85HP airplane engine if Ican find a good one that I can afford. The Subaru also looks good to me andI know someone who is flying with one that I could ask advice from. Yougotta always think light. I even lost 10 pounds last spring so I could flybetter, but that 10 pounds is back now.Wayne McIntosh Lafayette, IN 204#----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Gary Gower
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learn about the Flying Flea.In a message dated 1/30/02 9:57:29 AM Pacific Standard Time, Skip.Gadd(at)ssa.gov writes:> Anyone got any thoughts on good looking cowlings > for my long-nose Pietenpol? I'm thinking of pressure cowlings vs > eyebrows vs cylinders-in-the-wind. Any comments would be appreciated.> Larry> > Larry,> I think it is still possible to get a Pietenpol/Corvair cowl.> Dwayne Tauba, who up until last year brought his gray and black Corvair > Piet> to Brodhead every year for 10 or 12 years has Pietenpol's actual cement> molds. He was selling cowls for $125.00 a couple years ago when I got mine.> He was also selling cowls like the one on his Piet.> The Pietenpol/Corvair cowl are like the cowl on the Last Original and the> 2nd to last original which is> http://www.russellw.com/museums/oshkosh ... p?PicID=13 at> Pioneer field the Oshkosh museum.> I am not running a blower on my Corvair but plan to use the above cowl as a> pressure cowl.> Skip> > > Guys,I am now coming up with a set of original BHP style Corvair cowls to make splash from. The splash will be heavy enough to be a mold. The Corvair powered aircampers in this area plan to use this style cowling. Doug Bryant Wichita, Ks________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 17:35:26 -0800 (PST)

Original Posted By: "Wayne McIntosh"
Good advice on the weight of engines.My advice for what it is worth is runan ad in a large town newspaper ."Wanted a 65 or 66 corvair engine."I didthat and got 7 calls.Got to take my pick.Then get W W's manual and startthere.Will end up with 90 + horsepower and 230 lbs.Bill----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Kip & Beth Gardner

Original Posted By: Kip & Beth Gardner

Original Posted By: Larry Neal

Original Posted By: "Gary McNeel, Jr."

Original Posted By: Fisherman Caye

Original Posted By: Fisherman Caye

Original Posted By: B F Dearinger
How much did you pay?I've found a running 65 in an automatic convertible, but he wants $450 forit.Would I be better off buying one for $150 or $200 that doesn't run, sinceI'll be rebuilding it anyway?Thanks----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Kip & Beth Gardner

Original Posted By: Kip & Beth Gardner

Original Posted By: "KenGailGriff"
If money is snug ,keep looking. Running or not an engine destined foraircraft use has to be completely rebuilt and if you keep looking severalwill turn up for $75 to $150 ea. Make sure that they can be rotated by handat least a full turn.I found a 110 hp for $100 and a 140 hp for $175.Boughtthem both.The 140 hp heads are not efficient for aircraft use but are ofvalue to car people.Make sure you get the bellhousing, distributor and thelower cylinder baffles.The good models and years are listed in thecorvaircraft site.The corvair is built rugged ,fairly small and lite for theoutput and the most important two things are "air cooled and direct drive".----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Fisherman Caye

Original Posted By: Fisherman Caye

Original Posted By: Fisherman Caye

Original Posted By: "Fisherman Caye"
----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: B F Dearinger
Thanks. Good advice. I think I'll keep looking, or see if this gentleman hasone that he is not so proud of.----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Cy Galley"
> > > > > Guess I offended some people's sensibilities? > Glue of any kind between joints, if not kept under> compression during the setting process, indeed can> make a faulty joint. Just as valid for T 88 as any> other kind from Home Depot. That is why you use a> clamp, or a nail, or screw in the joint while it> sets.> > I'll think about the mathematics of weight and> balance. Probably do it, as a backup check on the> more eyeball engineering method. Guess you will> catch on to my sarcastic sense of humor after a> while, as I'm a newbie on the list. As to the saw> horse? Yup! It will work. Used to put 1000 pounds> of engines in overhead trees, with trip wires, to> drop on lumber thieves and roving killer bandidos in> Central America. It works out fine.> > Sorry about the irreverance I show to due process> and bureaucrats. Spent my life without any handy to> ever help me in strange parts of the world. Hard to> get used to the bureaucrat rules and controls your> life syndrome, back home. Might never get over my> sense of self-reliance? The only ones I ever met,> caused me untold grief and expense and their> assistance wasn't worth a damn.> > > On Sat, 26 January 2002, Fisherman Caye wrote:> > > > Caye > > > > > > The glue is a polyurethane. Brand name> Polybrand. My Home Depot pretty much does not have> any other glue. An expert just answered and said it> is an excellent glue. Which I found out anyway in> practice.> > On the comment about an FAA Inspector and> mathematical computation for weight and balance? > Why would I need an FAA inspector? Never had one> before and been flying off and on for 40 years, here> and there in the world. ( Just joking of course!> Ha! Ha! )> > Depends a lot where I get to test it! If it is> out in the boondocks of the Everglades on some grass> patch??? If at an airport with lots of rules, then> I guess one has to comply?> > ------------------------------------------> > > > > > On Sat, 26 January 2002, Dmott9(at)aol.com wrote:> > > > > > Dmott9(at)aol.com> > > > > > In a message dated 1/26/02 9:23:56 AM Eastern> Standard Time, > > > cayecaulker(at)justice.com writes:> > > > > > > > Anyway, Home Depot polyester glue is fine! > Less work but stains the > > > fingers for four days afterward until it wears> off. >>> > > > > > Would you mind posting the name of this glue ?> I'm going to go see what I can > > > find at ACE also, so far haven't found an ACE> that had wood, so will be > > > looking. I got a kick out of the "HOME DEPOT"> comments. It really does seem > > > that its the "PIET DEPOT" > > > > > > Do you have your plane finished ? Is your friend> Ted building one too?> > > I agree that this is a barnyard plane. Its made> for those farmers that want > > > to build something between haying and feeding> the cows. And made to land in > > > the hayfields. Good comments. I wish your> comments would be written up with > > > pictures. It would make a GREAT addition to an> already massive amount of > > > information on the PIET.> > > -dennis the menace, in Tenn.> > > > > > > > > > > > FindLaw - Free Case Law, Jobs, Library, Community> > http://www.FindLaw.com> > Get your FREE @JUSTICE.COM email!> > http://mail.Justice.com> > > > > > > FindLaw - Free Case Law, Jobs, Library, Community> http://www.FindLaw.com> Get your FREE @JUSTICE.COM email!> http://mail.Justice.com> > > > ------- End of forwarded message -------> > > FindLaw - Free Case Law, Jobs, Library, Community> http://www.FindLaw.com> Get your FREE @JUSTICE.COM email!> http://mail.Justice.com> > >> Forum -> Contributions of> any other form>> latest messages.> other List members.>> http://www.matronics.com/subscription> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare> http://www.matronics.com/search> http://www.matronics.com/archives> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists>> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Doug413(at)aol.com
> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learn about the Flying Flea.> >> > I live about 1 1/2 hrs. north of W. Wynne. Maybe I should go down> and look at his. > > Larry,> Yes go down and visit William. He had his Piet set up as a pressure cowl> and as I remember it was running plenty cool. I know he will be happy to> explain how he did it. I think you leave the bottom baffles in place.> Skip> > FindLaw - Free Case Law, Jobs, Library, Communityhttp://www.FindLaw.comGet your FREE @JUSTICE.COM email!http://mail.Justice.com________________________________________________________________________________