Brodhead Pietenpol Association

Original Posted By: Fisherman Caye
Hello, Pieters;I hesitate to bring this up because it's all been covered before... just go to http://www.matronics.com, go to the Pietenpol list, and search on the Pietenpol archives on any keyword you like: "tail braces", "tail brace wires", "ferrules", whatever... it's all there, in rich detail.But here's my point. Some folks feel rather strongly about using modern aircraft materials and techniques over older, "antique" methods. After all, we don't cover our airplanes with grade A cotton anymore, nor do we use cambric for wire insulation. But for those who have the desire to use the older methods and materials, there are the hard-wire tail braces with ferrules. Even those (the ferrules) have been argued to death, since a ferrule shaped over a round pin has a round hole in the center, but when it is applied, it is slipped over two wires (the standing part and the running part), so technically should have an oval or flat hole. Whatever. If you're interested in looking at the "old timey" ferrules, Carl Loar has the details on his website, and you can get a 1 lb. roll (about 58') of .080" (12 ga.) hard stainless steel spring wire for $12.40 from McMaster-Carr and make yourself some ferrules and brace wires.Further sniffing around the archives will uncover discussions about how tight to tension the brace wires (tight enough that they remain taut while you lift the tail with them, but not drum-tight). Some said that "hand tight" was good enough, or a couple of pounds of tension on each. You musical guys: give us a note with your pitch pipe to indicate what key that 'twang' should be ;o)There, I've said it. Now flame away, modernists!Oscar ZunigaMedford, Oregonmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net________________________________________________________________________________Date: 10 Feb 2002 12:02:57 -0800

Original Posted By: "Gene Rambo"
You might check with the folks at "WW1 Aeroplanes"www.ww1aeroplanesinc.org -- they should know of anyone that has old stylehardware for replicas / restorations.Mike C.Pretty Prairie, KS----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Michael Conkling"
If anyone on here is adept at making the ferrules I'd like to know, I'll buythem from you. I have made them and it is a great pain in the a**! I knowof some people that actually don't mind doing it, though. If any of you issuch a person, speak up!________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Fisherman Caye

Original Posted By: "Jeffrey Wilcox"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: tail brace wiresIn a message dated 2/10/02 1:37:55 PM Pacific Standard Time, rambog(at)erols.com writes:> If anyone on here is adept at making the ferrules I'd like to know, I'll buy> them from you. I have made them and it is a great pain in the a**! I know> of some people that actually don't mind doing it, though. If any of you is> such a person, speak up!> > > Gene,Tha Kansas Aviation Museum has them made here in town somewhere at a cost of 1$ ea. I have the specs for them, but they are very difficult (for me anyway) to make at home. They are made from hard wire (1095 high carbon/music wire/piano wire) and are cold formed around an oval mandrel. I tried to make some from 4130 welding rod an then heat treat, I still could not get the form. I have seen the correct wire used with a nico press copper swag, but do not recommend this method.There is another issue with the hard wire type of installations and that is they tend to break at the loop formed at the end of the wire. That is one reason why the stranded cable became a good substitute as it was placed around a thimble. I have spent years studying this stuff and find it all very fascinating for sure Hard wire would be alright if one could manufacture the correct ferrules, I don't believe they are as safe, however. On my planes, I tend to go with what is easy today.I would also like to be able to wire wrap and solder stranded cable as BHP did on all his planes and was common in the early days of aviation. The spec is in 43-13, but I cannot get solder to take; not sure why, I have tried every flux in the book, so I just settle for nicopress. Doug Bryant Wichita,Ks________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Jack Phillips
Jack, I cannot disagree with you about the Piet needing the wires. I candisagree with Doug's saying that the wires HAVE to be aircraft-quality 7x19cable. My point is not that the wires aren't needed, but that 14 ga.galvanized wire is sufficient to do the job.Off-list I have replied to Fisherman (Ray) about what Nicos are, how theyare used, and to please not use fishing weights in their place.Craig----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Fisherman Caye
----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Gary McNeel, Jr."
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: tail brace wiresIn a message dated 2/10/02 6:01:09 PM Pacific Standard Time, rambog(at)erols.com writes:> Doug:> > I disagree about the wire and ferrule being less safe than cable or any> propensity to break at the bend. Stranded cable replaced wires only > because> cable will go around pulleys and wire won't. A well made wire and loop is> stronger than you would think. Please give me a name/number/address of> whoever makes the thimbles for $1 each and I will buy all they have.> > As for the wrap-soldered method for control cables, forget 43.13, it is> wrong. I do it all the time and it is easy. I will have to get out to my> hangar to get you the name of the only flux I have found that works, > though.> I'll get back to you on that one.> > You could also do an Army-Navy 5 tuck splice on yours. Only takes about 20> minutes each once you get the hang of it.> > Gene,Yes, I realize the hard wire installation is very strong. I heard about the breakage issue when I got my A&P and from some antique airplane folks in Little Rock. They have some great antiques there. One is an original Jenny made in 1917. They let me sit in once when I was there on business; I sat in it for two hours and took a bunch of great pictures. That aircraft has some hard wire bracing on the tail and if you like I could send you some of these close-ups for your files. I will call the Kansas Aviation Museum tomorrow and get name of the place they use for the ferrules. I also have the spec and the tool sketches for the loop. The 14 ga on the Piet plans is from the Brown & Sharp wire gage spec. It is a little smaller than 1/16 dia. Doug Bryant________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 21:16:52 -0600

Original Posted By: Doug413(at)aol.com
Doug:I disagree about the wire and ferrule being less safe than cable or anypropensity to break at the bend. Stranded cable replaced wires only becausecable will go around pulleys and wire won't. A well made wire and loop isstronger than you would think. Please give me a name/number/address ofwhoever makes the thimbles for $1 each and I will buy all they have.As for the wrap-soldered method for control cables, forget 43.13, it iswrong. I do it all the time and it is easy. I will have to get out to myhangar to get you the name of the only flux I have found that works, though.I'll get back to you on that one.You could also do an Army-Navy 5 tuck splice on yours. Only takes about 20minutes each once you get the hang of it.Gene________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Oscar,The ferrules are oval in cross section. THis gleaned from original Jennydrawings that Doug Bryant has a copy of. To my knowledge, they have neverbeen or should never have been round. KeriAnn Price showed how to do it inan old BPA newsletter using round ones but this is incorrect in my book.Chris Bobka-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: "skellytownflyer"
A correction to my post on douglas fir price. The $1.29 price was for some 1x3 stock I bought. 1x8x16' was $4.68 per ft. That is finished sanded.Dick N.________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: tail brace wires

Original Posted By: "Gene Rambo"
I am in the process of rigging the tail surfaces to see what I need before coveringand have a set of streamlined tailbrace wires to install.they are Mcwhyteif it makes any difference.I have looked for reference in A/S catalog but notfound the minimum thread make-up length-meaning how far into the end it needsto be.does it need to be in as far as the small hole drilled through the rodend?Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

Original Posted By: skellytownflyer
Absolutely. The small hole is called the "witness" hole, and the threads MUST cover the hole.Gene ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Jack T. Textor"

Original Posted By:

Original Posted By: "Bill Church"

Original Posted By: shad bell
he's using streamline wires because that's what came with it when I sold the project to him. I got them for free years ago. They are only use on top. Lower wires are 1/8" cables.DJ Veghveghdesign.comMesa, AZ 602.743.5768"Where there's a will there's a Vegh"- ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By:

Original Posted By: Pietsrneat(at)aol.com
Got the information I needed again! it's the witness hole-now I remember the terminology,andyes that makes perfect sense and I remember knowing it at one time.thanks.Theseare as DJ said flying wires-not turnbuckles.thanks guys.RaymondRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: spruce woodJust a little tip when looking for wood: Bring a sanding block with you to smooth the ends of the boards to get a better idea of grain lines per inch andslope. Sometimes it's very hard to tell otherwise.Ron************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: tail brace wiresDate: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:14:16 -0400

Original Posted By: "walt evans"

Original Posted By:
Harvey,Bill Church is correct when he says the bend in the fitting is in the wrong place. Good engineering practice would have placed the bend as close to the bolt head (or nut) as possible. Also, the flat of the bolt head could be aligned so that it is 90 degrees to the edge of the fitting. A small detail, to be sure--but airplanes are all about details. (Speaking of details, it seems that some check/locking nuts are missing on some of your tie rod ends!)The existing bend location provides a tendency for the fitting to straighten under load, which in turn affects the brace wire/tie rod tension adjustment. And, as Bill pointed out, having the bend too far from the bolt could cause the fitting to press into the spar at the outboard end.Possibly the existing fittings could be replaced by ones with the bend closer to the bolt. I wouldn't recommend adding an extra bolt because the single bolt allows the horizontal stab. fittings to line up with the brace wires. A single AN3 bolt is plenty strong for this application, anyway. I used a single bolt on each of my Pietenpol stab. fittings for this reason--and the bends are as close to the bolt head as I could get them. The brace wires are 3/32" stainless steel cable and the setup has been completely satisfactory since 1970 when I first flew it..Despite this design deficiency, the setup you have will likely never cause you any trouble if you keep an eye on it. A plus is that it is easily checked during your pre-fight inspection. Graham Hansen Pietenpol CF-AUN________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: tail brace wiresDate: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:54:47 -0400

Original Posted By: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP"

Original Posted By: "Tom Stinemetze"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Scimitar Propeller Ken, Here is a prop that I love, made by Jay Anderson of CLOUDCARS. I was going to buy one, but Chuck Gantzer has be convinced I can carve one myself. Chuck mentioned to me that this prop probably isn't a true scimitar, but I lovethe way it looks nonetheless. How long it will take me to carve it is anyone'sguess, but I'm gonna give it a crack. If it turns out decent, I would be glad to loan it out for duplication. Rondo not archive************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Tim Willis
The tail brace wires on 41CC are 1/16". When I got the airplane from Corky, theywere done in galvanized cable. One of the wires broke sometime during a flight(Charlie at the stick) and since they were already showing some weatheringI decided to replace them all with stainless cable since they hang out in thebreeze all of their lives. I have on occasion taken a look back there in flightwhen I've gone through some turbulence because those little cables look mightythin at such times, but the catalogued numbers for tensile strength indicatethat the wood or fastener would fail long before the cable might.The control cables to the rudder and elevators on 41CC are 3/32". The wing strutand cabane strut X-brace wires are 1/8". All galvanized.Oscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CCSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:06:29 -0500 (GMT-05:00)

Original Posted By: Michael Perez
Joe asked-> Also on the turnbuckle topic=3B has anyone replaced the piano wire on the tail > with cable and turnbuckles?> What size cable and what size turnbuckles?I don't know of anyone who is currently building a Piet using the steel wireand thimble method used in the old plans=2C although it has been done in thepast. Most everyone uses 1/16" or 3/32" 7x19 cable with turnbuckles toadjust the tension. My airplane uses 1/16" stainless cable back there sincethe first set of wires on it (galvanized) had some corrosion over time and Ireplaced them with stainless.A quick glance at the Aircraft Spruce catalog shows that the turnbucklesfor 1/16" cable are just about the smallest ones in the catalog listing.Oscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CCSan Antonio=2C TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 07:28:16 -0800 (PST)

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
Hi Michael,-They are cast aluminum....- drilled, -and come with the hinge pin.....- well worth the $$$-I just finished mounting mine on the plane, and it was a breeze!- My Project is 200 miles away-so cannot-send a photo! (SORRY)-Cheers!-Dave-------Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Ryan Mueller
Mike,Here's a couple close ups, and a "group shot". Vi's contact info is in the archives,and I think they were around $40. My online bank access only goes back 120days, otherwise I would look up the check and tell you for sure. Hope thathelps,http://www.flickr.com/photos/rmueller23 ... s/o/RyanOn Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Michael Perez wrote:Anyone have pictures of the Kapler hinges? I would like to see what they look like.Any idea what the current cost is as well?________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 10:39:05 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Kapler hinges

Original Posted By: Michael Perez
You could make them from steel per the plans....but as Mike C. said about that:"I wish I had bought these from Vi.....instead I was stubborn and spent at least a week making mine from 4130."You could spend the time to make your own mold, cast them out of aluminum, and do all the finish work. Or you could write a check for $40, mail it to Vi, and spend all that time waiting for them to show up working on other parts of your Piet. That is, of course, unless you intend to change the hinge design...- ;)Have a good one,Ryan >On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Michael Perez wrote:>>Any idea on material? (T6061...) This looks like something I can easily make myself.________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 09:50:18 -0800 (PST)

Original Posted By: "walt"
You could make them from steel per the plans....but as Mike C. said aboutthat:"I wish I had bought these from Vi.....instead I was stubborn and spent atleast a week making mine from 4130."You could spend the time to make your own mold, cast them out of aluminum,and do all the finish work. Or you could write a check for $40, mail it toVi, and spend all that time waiting for them to show up working on otherparts of your Piet. That is, of course, unless you intend to change thehinge design... ;)Have a good one,Ryan >On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Michael Perez wrote:>>Any idea on material? (T6061...) This looks like something I can easilymake myself.________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "Jack T. Textor"

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Hi Michael,They are cast aluminum.... drilled, and come with the hinge pin..... wellworth the $$$I just finished mounting mine on the plane, and it was a breeze! My Projectis 200 miles away so cannot send a photo! (SORRY)Cheers!Dave -----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Ryan Mueller
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Kapler hinges

Original Posted By: Michael Perez

Original Posted By: Michael Perez

Original Posted By: Michael Perez

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Instead of 3 separate hinges? Do you mean 2?Gary BootheCool, Ca.PietenpolWW Corvair ConversionTail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!)(12 ribs down.) _____

Original Posted By: Michael Perez
I made mine from steel.Instead of the .080" ," I think" , thk, I used half that for ease of working. For the left one was one rectangle, with 2 "L's" added.For the right one, 1 rectangle, 2 "L's" with a narrow "U" in the center.Then just torch weld all around.This was my goal. to tell all who asked,,,,"I made every part of this plane with my own hands".Means alot to mewalt evansNX140DL ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "walt"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: tail brace wiresThank you Oscar.Joe MotisWW Corvair builderPietenpol assistantNo archives eh HombresIn a message dated 2/4/2009 9:54:45 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, taildrags(at)hotmail.com writes:Joe asked-> Also on the turnbuckle topic; has anyone replaced the piano wire on the tail > with cable and turnbuckles?> What size cable and what size turnbuckles?I don't know of anyone who is currently building a Piet using the steel wireand thimble method used in the old plans, although it has been done in thepast. Most everyone uses 1/16" or 3/32" 7x19 cable with turnbuckles toadjust the tension. My airplane uses 1/16" stainless cable back there sincethe first set of wires on it (galvanized) had some corrosion over time and Ireplaced them with stainless.A quick glance at the Aircraft Spruce catalog shows that the turnbucklesfor 1/16" cable are just about the smallest ones in the catalog listing.Oscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CCSan Antonio, TXmailto: _taildrags(at)hotmail.com_ (mailto:taildrags(at)hotmail.com) website at http://www.flysquirrel.net(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/n ... si00000003)________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "Don Emch"
Plans call for a pretty fine gauge (don't have them in front of me)hardwire, which is less strong and vibration resistant than 1/16th aircraftcable. Anything larger than 1/16th is (in my humble opinion) overkill andextra weight where you do NOT want it. Two cables per angle with a combinedbreaking strength of over 1,000lbs has proven adequete on many flying Pietsto be more than adequete to keep that wooden tail structure together. Theyare much stronger than the structure they are bracing.Douwe________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: What a blast!! C37, OSH, OH71

Original Posted By: "Don Emch"
Shad,I really enjoyed flying along with you. It always is exciting when flying withothers, especially those with Piets. I'm glad you were able to make a dash forhome when you needed to. That crazy weather kinda messed up plans, but that'shalf the fun. We made it to Wakeman, OH and my wife and kids came and pickedus up. Getting up for work at 5:30 am Thursday after getting home at about1:00 am was a little tough. Frank and I hitched a ride in a 172 to Wakeman,OH yesterday to pick up our planes. The flight home was really great. We stoppedin to see Don Helmick in Valley City. What a treat to see him.By the way, I'm really impressed with that Piet of you and your dad's. Not onlydoes it look fantastic, it really performs. How about on the leg to Plymouth,IN when I was leading our group and after a while you just decided enough ofthis slow flight and you pulled on ahead of me. Within a few minutes you wereout of sight! Quite a performer!What a great trip! Thanks to all who added to it!!!Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Hagerstown, Dirksons, Brodhead, OSH

Original Posted By: "gcardinal"
Larry..."59 mph average speed"I knew it! I knew you weren't getting 60mph!!HA!Hey thanks a bunch Larry for flying with me and hanging out with me at OSH!Don E.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

Original Posted By: "taildrags"
I did exactly what Douwe said. I braced up the tail with wood and clamps and thenmade the wires to fit.. I do have a big "bolt cutter" looking crimper andnot the bolt together type. I found it fairly easy to get them to fit and thena twist or 2 either way will lengthen or tighten.. Learned this trick from RogerMann when I built a ragwing special years ago.. cheap easy and light. 8 turnbucklesare heavy and expensive... I don't have tunbuckles in my elevator rudderor ailerons either, the bad geometry of the control system built to theF&G manual plans doesn't allow much tension anyway... so again.. easy light andcheap.Jeff FaithSDFRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: tail brace wires

Original Posted By: Ryan Mueller
A quick search of the archives will turn up the discussions that we've had aboutwire for tail braces, and will also turn up the information that there was anarticle on how to form the ferrules in the 1st quarter 1993 issue of the BuckeyePietenpol Association newsletter. I think I've got it somewhere, but I'vemoved twice since then so no telling.Carl Loar used to have the articles on his website, but I just checked and hisPiet website is long gone.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 11:18:28 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: tail brace wires

Original Posted By: Ray Krause
Oscar and Jeff,I accidentally deleted Jeff's letter before responding. Oscar, I can understandthat the wrapped and soldered ferrules might fatigue right where the solder endsand the non-soldered cable continues, just as soldered electrical wires mightbreak due to vibration. That is why many recommend crimped electrical connections.And, Oscar, I do have that article. It all works OK. Not bad work ona cold, wet evening!Jeff, I am using the bolt crimper and it is more difficult to use. But as painbreeds behavior modification, I found a better way to use that "thing". Installthe thimble and ferrule on the cable, pull the loop tight around the thimbleto the length you want the cable, and then slightly crimp the ferrule with apair of side cutters, just enough to keep the ferrule in place. Then crimp theferrule with the official crimper. In this way, you do not have to line up theferrule, the thimble and ensure proper cable length while trying to get thecrimper in place. After crimping, you cannot even see where the ferrule was slightlycrimped with the side cutters!Jeff: if you rigged the stabilizers before covering, how did the cables fit aftercovering? Maybe just slight differences?Thanks for all the information.Ray KrauseSent from my iPad> On Dec 6, 2013, at 8:38 AM, "taildrags" wrote:> > > A quick search of the archives will turn up the discussions that we've had aboutwire for tail braces, and will also turn up the information that there wasan article on how to form the ferrules in the 1st quarter 1993 issue of the BuckeyePietenpol Association newsletter. I think I've got it somewhere, but I'vemoved twice since then so no telling.> > Carl Loar used to have the articles on his website, but I just checked and hisPiet website is long gone.> > --------> Oscar Zuniga> Medford, OR> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"> A75 power> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 979#414979> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Ray Krause
As an interesting, non-aviation aside, the company that wrote the NACA report --John Roebling and Sons, also built the Brooklyn Bridge. See "The Great Bridge"by David McCullough for the whole story.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

Original Posted By:> "taildrags"
Thanks, Greg. Very helpful. I have to figure out how to save PDF files to my iPad. All I can figure to do is print them. More research!Ray Krause Sent from my iPad> On Dec 6, 2013, at 10:27 AM, gcardinal(at)comcast.net wrote:> > Attached is the SAE Standard if you want to get the dimensions right for the loop and ferrule. Note the shape of the ferrule. It is oval, not round.> I've also attached NACA Technical Report #3 that tested these types of connections, the results were unsatisfactory. They sure do look cool though.> > Greg Cardinal> >

Original Posted By:>> "taildrags"
I figured out how to save the PDFs to iBooks.Thanks,Ray KrauseSent from my iPad> On Dec 6, 2013, at 1:09 PM, Ray Krause wrote:> > Thanks, Greg. Very helpful. I have to figure out how to save PDF files to my iPad. All I can figure to do is print them. More research!> > Ray Krause > > > > Sent from my iPad> >> On Dec 6, 2013, at 10:27 AM, gcardinal(at)comcast.net wrote:>> >> Attached is the SAE Standard if you want to get the dimensions right for the loop and ferrule. Note the shape of the ferrule. It is oval, not round.>> I've also attached NACA Technical Report #3 that tested these types of connections, the results were unsatisfactory. They sure do look cool though.>> >> Greg Cardinal>> >>

Original Posted By: Ken Bickers
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: tail brace wires

Original Posted By:>>>> "taildrags"
Thanks, I will look into it.RaySent from my iPad> On Dec 6, 2013, at 1:41 PM, Ken Bickers wrote:> > Ray, > > Here's another little trick that a couple of the old timers at my airport put me onto. At the big box stores, you can find these connectors that are sold for attaching ground wires to ground stakes. They cost a couple of dollars for a package of two. You can set up the thimble, cable, and ferrule to the exact desired length, then use one of these to clamp down the bitter end of the cable next to the running side of the cable. It will hold everything together while you use whatever crimping tool that you want to make crimps in the ferrule. Cheap, easy, and fast.> > Cheers, Ken> > >> On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 2:19 PM, Ray Krause wrote:>> I figured out how to save the PDFs to iBooks.>> >> Thanks,>> Ray Krause>> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad>> >>> On Dec 6, 2013, at 1:09 PM, Ray Krause wrote:>>> >>> Thanks, Greg. Very helpful. I have to figure out how to save PDF files to my iPad. All I can figure to do is print them. More research!>>> >>> Ray Krause >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad>>> >>>> On Dec 6, 2013, at 10:27 AM, gcardinal(at)comcast.net wrote:>>>> >>>> Attached is the SAE Standard if you want to get the dimensions right for the loop and ferrule. Note the shape of the ferrule. It is oval, not round.>>>> I've also attached NACA Technical Report #3 that tested these types of connections, the results were unsatisfactory. They sure do look cool though.>>>> >>>> Greg Cardinal>>>> >>>>