Brodhead Pietenpol Association

Original Posted By: "Jack Phillips"
I'm trying to save some money and time on the covering process.I'vecovered and painted my tailfeathers . I used the poly-fiber system upthru Poly-brushing the tapes.Then I used 2 coats of latex Kilz primersealer to fill the weave.Both brushed very thin .Then 1 cross coat(gunsprayed) of Rustoleum aluminum paint. Then 2 coats of Rustoleum for thefinish color. They look great and I 'm planning on doing the rest of thePiet the same way unless someone can tell me a reason why this won'twork. Thanks for any input Mark________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
>>I'm trying to save some money and time on the covering process.I've>covered and painted my tailfeathers . I used the poly-fiber system up>thru Poly-brushing the tapes.Then I used 2 coats of latex Kilz primer>sealer to fill the weave.Both brushed very thin .Then 1 cross coat(gun>sprayed) of Rustoleum aluminum paint. Then 2 coats of Rustoleum for the>finish color. They look great and I 'm planning on doing the rest of the>Piet the same way unless someone can tell me a reason why this won't>work. Thanks for any input Mark>>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
I'm sure that will work, as far as getting a finish on the plane. Let meknow what it looks like after a few years of flying. Why save money andtime on something that absolutely determines how this project that you'veworked so hard on for so long will look for years to come? Have you evertried to patch fabric that was finished with enamel? I have. My J-3 Cubhad enamel on the fuselage. When the trim system needed repairing and ahole had to be cut in the fabric, getting a patch to adhere was a nightmare.The enamel had to be sanded off, down to good dope. For me, I will stickwith tried and true aircraft paint systems, probably PolyTone, but possiblyAeroThane. Aircraft fabric flexes and vibrates an awful lot. And repairsare almost a certainty. I have no idea how you would make a repair onlatex.Jack -----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: "Gary McNeel, Jr."

Original Posted By: Gary Gower
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fabric systemMark,This is the stuff that interests me presently. PLEASE keep us informed about this process.ThanksCorky in La also trying to save some money so his bride can get a new pair of swamp boots.________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:11:24 -0800 (PST)

Original Posted By: Gary Gower

Original Posted By: "Mark"
Mark, I tried some test panels using Rustoleum Alminum paint as the UV barrierfollowed by latex gloss paint. The panels were 1' square and I used 1.8ozdacron shrunk on wood frames. I left it out in the sun for over 3 years now.I had my A&P friend test it with a maule tester after 2 years outdoors andit passed. The problem is that the latex does not bond well to therustoleum. The way I tested the adhesion was to apply a strip of cheap 2"masking tape to the panel and rip off the tape. The tape pulled off thelatex paint leaving the aluminum paint attached to the dacron. I tried thesame process using flat black latex house paint as a UV barrier and coveredthe black latex with gloss color latex house paint. The tape test did notpull off the latex over latex. This process is used on some of the planesdesigned by Mike Fisher. I did not test the Fisher process since othersalready have tested it. So when I painted my plane I used the followingprocess. I followed the Poly-Fiber manual to the letter until I had all thetapes and rib lacing done including the Poly-Brush then I applied the blacklatex followed by the gloss latex. My plane is 2 years old and it looksfine. I have seen a Fisher Koala that was 11 years old with the same processand it looked fine. You can remove the paint with acetone to make repairs. Ihave seen 2 planes that were painted with enamel paint that had peelingpaint. I have seen others with enamel that did not peel. One problem I hadwas that I used Glidden Bright Red as my finish coat. It takes 5 coats ofBright Red to cover the black UV barrier. I think because of this that Ihave a heavy paint job. Had I known this I would have painted my plane adarker color that would not need as many coats. Also when I needed to make arepair I found that Glidden had discontinued that color, I did manage tomatch it with another brand. I think that you get the best in light weightand durability with one of the STC aproved processes like Poly-Fiber otRandolph etc they just cost more.You can get acceptable results if youexperiment and do some testing yourself.Wayne McIntoshRagwing Rag-A-Muffin----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Wayne McIntosh"
Wayne , The latest thing that I've done with my rudder is (1) followPoly-Fiber thru poly-brush on the tapes.(2)Kilz latex primer 2 coats brushedthin. (the kilz latex says that it can be finished with oil based or latexpaint)(3) One cross coat of Rustoleum aluminum (4) Two finish coats ofRustoleum enamel. I can't see why there would be any problem with this.It'sbeen 5 days since I finished the rudder and it looks great. I haven't triedthe masking tape test. Mark----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Gary Gower

Original Posted By: Gary Gower

Original Posted By: "Steve Eldredge"

Original Posted By: Kip & Beth Gardner

Original Posted By: "Gene Rambo"
Gene, There is a fellow named Mike Fisher that has designed some wood andfabric planes the Avenger, Horizin 1 & 2 to name two. Anyway Mike did sometesting and found that flat black latex house paint worked as a UV barrier.There was an article in the Experimenter about it years ago. It may be thatother colors other than black also would work. It also may be that it is allbaloney but if it is I fell for it. I do not think that Mike or anyone issuggesting that this is as good or better than an STC system like Poly-Fiberor Randolph. But it is less expensive, seems to work and it fits right inwith this kind of aviation. I bet you would never see black latex on aLancair or Cirrus.Wayne McIntosh----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Gene Rambo"
any paint that totally blocks light (UV rays) is a UV blocker .the only twocolors that totally block light are aluminum or silver and black.Most colorswould block light if you used enough coats of paint but the weight andeffort would be prohibitive.----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Steve Eldredge
I'm sorry, I must have missed something somewhere. Where did it come fromthat black paint serves as a UV barrier?Gene ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Dave and Connie

Original Posted By: Mark
You need to add gold (bronze) as a third color. I understand that aluminumand bronze block UV because they are metallic, which unquestionably blocksUV, but never thought of merely blocking the visible light as beingsufficient. Of course, sunblock supposedly blocks UV and it is invisible.Hey! maybe we could mix some SPF 30 in with clear dope?----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Kip & Beth Gardner

Original Posted By:> "Gene Rambo"
Hey group, house paint is probably made to block UV, but just becauseit's black doesn't mean a thing to non-visual frequencys. Just a reminderthat what you see isn't always what you get. Metallic paints stop UV becausethe solid metal gets in the way.I've done some work with light transmission and sometimes the resultswould be very suprising. Visual color has nothing to do with IR or UVtransmission.George AllenHarrisburg, PAGeorgeA(at)PAonline.com(Peitenpol builder)> any paint that totally blocks light (UV rays) is a UV blocker .the onlytwo> colors that totally block light are aluminum or silver and black.Mostcolors> would block light if you used enough coats of paint but the weight and> effort would be prohibitive.> ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "George Allen"
If no visable light gets through, can UV rays get through?----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Larry Neal

Original Posted By: "Mark"
Yes, That is why you need an Ultra-violet barrier as the ultra-violet lightwill destroy the fabric underneath.Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, OshkoshEditor, EAA Safety Programscgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.orgAlways looking for articles for the Experimenter----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: clif

Original Posted By: Kip & Beth Gardner
Mark, yes, UV can get thru. Depends on the chemical makeup of the paint.Looking atit another way, glass eyeglasses allow visible and UV to get thru unlessthey get a specialcoating, but plastic lenses will stop most UV and let the visible thru. It'sall about the chemistryof the paint and the wave length of the light.You can get 2 different paints that look exactly the same but viewed underUV lightone would be bright and the other dark. One reflects that wavelength and theother absorbs it.May even allow it to go thru. At that level it's quantum physics and weird.I think I'll use aluminium in my paint. (if I can find some)George AllenHarrisburg, PAGeorgeA(at)PAonline.com(Peitenpol builder)>> If no visable light gets through, can UV rays get through?> ----- Original Message ----->>Hey group, house paint is probably made to block UV, but just because> > it's black doesn't mean a thing to non-visual frequencys. Just areminder> > that what you see isn't always what you get. Metallic paints stop UV> because> > the solid metal gets in the way.> > I've done some work with light transmission and sometimes the results> > would be very suprising. Visual color has nothing to do with IR or UV> > transmission.________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 17:11:47 -0500

Original Posted By: "George Allen"
are you planning on using latex?----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By:> "George Allen"
> are you planning on using latex?Don't know yet. Latex seems to work, listening to the groupif it's done right, but I'm temped to go with an alkyd type paint.I wonder how Rustoleum with teflon would work?Painting is still about a year or more in the future.But I'm listening.George AllenHarrisburg, PAGeorgeA(at)PAonline.com(Peitenpol builder)p.s. I got permission to buy a flying airplane so I won't have to spend EVERY evening in the basement. Does anyone know of something likea VP 1 or 2, a Smith miniplane, a flybaby, or a Piet or somethingless then $8,000 to $9.000 that's for sale within a couple hundred milesof Harrisburg, PA?? I'm still going to build my Piet.----- Original Message ----- > are you planning on using latex?> ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "George Allen"
I'm using Rustoleum after Poly-tac and poly-brush. Mark----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: clif

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
I believe that in the Fisher system, he specifies a high carbon contentblack house paint be used as a UV block. I guess the carbon content hassomething to do with UV blocking.Mark Tracymtracy@prosoft-technology.com-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Dave and Connie

Original Posted By: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Thanks Gary, I'm saving your address.George AllenHarrisburg, PAGeorgeA(at)PAonline.com(Peitenpol builder): Re: Pietenpol-List: Fabric system> >George,> My plane will have at least a year of flying almost> all the week ends, so when you are ready I will answer> honestly about my 10O% latex paint, so you and others> can evaluate the pros ans cons from a 1st hand user.________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "Mark"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fabric systemIn a message dated 3/24/02 10:32:45 PM Central Standard Time, markmc(at)bluebonnet.net writes: I'm using Rustoleum after Poly-tac and poly-brush. Mark >>That's the way I did it. Rustoleum Oil Based Enamel #7715 Aluminum. This stuff has about an inch of aluminum powder in the bottom, when it's new. It takes 20 or 30 minutes to stir up a fresh new gallon !! Be careful how you apply that first coat, because it soaks right through the fabric, and will run on the inside. Even after a light first coat, light won't shine through the fabric. I did have a bit of problem on the test piece I did. The Rustoleum didn't cover the poly-brush on the first coat, and made 'fish eyes'. The second coat over the poly-brush covered well, and eliminated light shining through. As a result of the test piece, I painted the first coat of Rustoleum only on the poly-brush, and then the second (thin) coat on the whole wing, then a third, heavier coat. Chuck Gantzer________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By:
I'm using Kilz latex(2 light brush coats) over the poly-brush .Then onecross coat of Rustoleum aluminum (brushed). Then two finish coats spayedwith a gun with naptha as the thinner. I've done the VS and rudder and bothelevators and they have turned out good. They look better than I expected.Mark----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Gary McNeel, Jr."

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Hi Gary,I used the aluminum trailing edge from ASS on mine. Works very well - niceand straight, and very light. One thing to be careful of when using it isto make sure that the wood of the rib goes all the way to the vertex of thealuminum. Otherwise, when you begin to shrink the fabric, it will pull thetrailing edge up until it does make contact with the wood. I added smallwedges of spruce onto the flattened tips of the ribs to take up this space.If my explanation doesn't make sense, email me offline and I will send asketch showing what I mean.Jack -----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Gary,I just looked at your botched vertical fin piece. Don't worry, there willbe many more! Have you ordered any of the "Bargain Bags of Spruce" fromAS&S? They are true bargains, and many of the smaller pieces on my plane(such as the one you just screwed up) started their life in my shop as abargain bag from AS&S. For $15 you get about $100 worth of good qualityspruce, in various widths and thicknesses, in lenghts from 1' to 5'.BTW, for the long cuts like the one you were making when it got away fromyou, I found it easier to do on a table saw - easier to control and not solikely to get away from you. I don't have a shaper table, but that would bethe ultimate.Good luck,Jack -----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Jack Phillips
Another thing that helps with the TE is to put a dab of thick epoxy on theends of the rib instead of spruce wedge. When you pull the TE down (I use acargo strap) the epoxy "beds" the edge to the wooden rib tip, filling allgaps. There won't be any movement then. (I also nail after pulling downand leave the strap for 24 hours)----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Gary McNeel, Jr."
I am ordering wood to build ribs, etc. for the wing. In the plansthere are a couple of ways to treat the trailing edge and I have seen how MikeCuy did it. In the AS&S Catalog there is an aluminium trailing edge material,formed like a "V" that I have seen used on other planes such as the WolfBoredom Fighter and Pober Pixie (if I recall correctly, it was some form of parasol). Can any of you think of a good reason not to use it? Itseems strong, especially given the 12 to 12.5 inch rib spacing. Also seemsquite light. I saw a piece in a hangar. TIA. Gary P. McNeel, Jr.******************************************************************************************** No reason not to use Al trailing edge. It did. Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 07:41:15 -0600

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Nope, the Cessna is still for sale. Any Piet builders out there who need agood tailwheel trainer? I've got a 1947 Cessna 140 for sale, due tounemployment. It has a 100 hp O-200 Continental (more power than the C-85it came with) and is in good shape. A bargain at $15,500. You could buyit, fly it while you finish your Piet, and then sell if for more than youpaid for it once the Pietenpol is finished. At least that was my plan.Unfortunately, the loss of employment means I have to sell it before Ifinish the Pietenpol, and having to put a new engine in it meant that Iwon't get out of it all the money I've put in it.Jack -----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: "Gary McNeel, Jr."

Original Posted By: "Gary McNeel, Jr."

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Only one thing wrong with that idea. It would be pretty hard to replace thetrailing edge without tearing the rib up. I've already had to replace onesection where an overly enthusuastic airplane admirer stumbled and fellagainst the wing, bending one bay of trailing edge. I just pulled thenails, cut a new section and nailed it in place. Took about 5 minutes (ofcourse, the wing hasn't been covered yet). When you screw up as much as Ido, you learn to plan for repairs.JackHey Gene! Are you gonna stop by on your way to Sun 'n' Fun? Hope to seeyou then. -----Original Message-----