Original Posted By: "Greg Cardinal"
Subject: Pietenpol-List: FAA RegPieters,Would someone in the know please give me the identity of the Regulation that allows the use of X in lieu of the EXPERIMENTAL on aircraft numbers.Corky in La trying to get as much covering done BEFORE our usual humility settles in.________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 08:50:16 -0500
Pietenpol-List: FAA Reg
RE: Pietenpol-List: FAA Reg
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Corky,It is section 45.45.22 says that you can use an x after the n if you are registering anexperimental. then 45.23 (b) says that if you use only an N on anexperimental (without the X) then you MUST put the word EXPERIMENTAL in 2inch letters near the cabin or cockpit entrance. SO, it you use NX, thenyou don't need the 2" experimental.chris-----Original Message-----
Corky,It is section 45.45.22 says that you can use an x after the n if you are registering anexperimental. then 45.23 (b) says that if you use only an N on anexperimental (without the X) then you MUST put the word EXPERIMENTAL in 2inch letters near the cabin or cockpit entrance. SO, it you use NX, thenyou don't need the 2" experimental.chris-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: FAA Reg
Original Posted By: "Greg Cardinal"
RE: Pietenpol-List: FAA Reg
Original Posted By: "Christian Bobka"
OK, let's get this one straight...Below see the regs, in their entirety, but first, the discussion.How is all this interpreted?Every GADO and FSDO that I've ever worked with say this:Even if you DO have the "NX" number displayed, you STILL must have the 2""EXPERIMENTAL" on display where it is visible to each occupant entering theaircraft.Why? Several reasons, probably, but I imagine it comes down to these. "Gonnafly it in a movie?" or "It isn't an OLD airplane, you just built it" (Yep,it IS the same "external configuration" as Bernies originals, but they don'tcare) or else it's classic CYA... you may know more about this particularreg than the FAA rep that shows up to sign off your airplane.... but,legally, his is the final word.Remember, the 2" EXPERIMENTAL doesn't have to be on the OUTSIDE of theairplane... just visible to anyone that enters the airplane.Also, in any 2 seat airplane, like a Piet, remember that you have to havethe "Passenger Warning" placard installed where it is in clear view of anypassenger.A couple of quick tips...Go ahead and put the "EXPERIMENTAL" sign, somewhere, where it's visible....it'll save an almost certain delay when the Friendly FAA Fellow shows up tosign off your airplane.Never tell the Friendly FAA Fellow that he's wrong, or you'll have a lengthydelay before the first flight.If you're absolutely certain that the Friendly FAA Fellow is wrong....DON'T go over his head to his supervisor at the station, or, even worse, toWashington... or you'll probably be converting the Piet into a doghouse.Remember, when in doubt, be conservative.... and.... the Feds usually win.:)Ric RyburnTechnical Research/Maintenance Support Specialist/Aircraft MaintenanceTechnicianPiedmont-Hawthorne AviationNorfolk, VAThe regs follow:Here is ALL of 45.22 45.22 Exhibition, antique, and other aircraft: Special rules.(a) When display of aircraft nationality and registration marks inaccordance with 45.21 and 45.23 through 45.33 would be inconsistent withexhibition of that aircraft, a U.S.-registered aircraft may be operatedwithout displaying those marks anywhere on the aircraft if:(1) It is operated for the purpose of exhibition, including a motion pictureor television production, or an airshow;(2) Except for practice and test fights necessary for exhibition purposes,it is operated only at the location of the exhibition, between theexhibition locations, and between those locations and the base of operationsof the aircraft; and(3) For each flight in the United States:(i) It is operated with the prior approval of the Flight Standards DistrictOffice, in the case of a flight within the lateral boundaries of the surfaceareas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for thetakeoff airport, or within 4.4 nautical miles of that airport if it iswithin Class G airspace; or(ii) It is operated under a flight plan filed under either 91.153 or 91.169 of this chapter describing the marks it displays, in the case of anyother flight.(b) A small U.S.-registered aircraft built at least 30 years ago or aU.S.-registered aircraft for which an experimental certificate has beenissued under 21.191(d) or 21.191(g) for operation as an exhibitionaircraft or as an amateur-built aircraft and which has the same externalconfiguration as an aircraft built at least 30 years ago may be operatedwithout displaying marks in accordance with 45.21 and 45.23 through45.33 if:(1) It displays in accordance with 45.21(c) marks at least 2 inches highon each side of the fuselage or vertical tail surface consisting of theRoman capital letter "N" followed by:(i) The U.S. registration number of the aircraft; or(ii) The symbol appropriate to the airworthiness certificate of the aircraft("C", standard; "R", restricted; "L", limited; or "X", experimental)followed by the U.S. registration number of the aircraft; and(2) It displays no other mark that begins with the letter "N" anywhere onthe aircraft, unless it is the same mark that is displayed under paragraph(b)(1) of this section.(c) No person may operate an aircraft under paragraph (a) or (b) of thissection --(1) In an ADIZ or DEWIZ described in Part 99 of this chapter unless ittemporarily bears marks in accordance with 45.21 and 45.23 through45.33;(2) In a foreign country unless that country consents to that operation; or(3) In any operation conducted under Part 121, 133, 135, or 137 of thischapter.(d) If, due to the configuration of an aircraft, it is impossible for aperson to mark it in accordance with 45.21 and 45.23 through 45.33, hemay apply to the Administrator for a different marking procedure.[Doc. No. 8093, Amdt. 45-5, 33 FR 450, Jan. 12, 1968, as amended by Amdt.45-13, 46 FR 48603, Oct. 1, 1981; Amdt. 45-19, 54 FR 39291, Sept. 25, 1989;Amdt. 45-18, 54 FR 34330, Aug. 18, 1989; Amdt. 45-21, 56 FR 65653, Dec. 17,1991; Amdt. 45-22, 66 FR 21066, Apr. 27, 2001]And now, for 45.2345.23 Display of marks; general.(a) Each operator of an aircraft shall display on that aircraft marksconsisting of the Roman capital letter "N" (denoting United Statesregistration) followed by the registration number of the aircraft. Eachsuffix letter used in the marks displayed must also be a Roman capitalletter.(b) When marks that include only the Roman capital letter "N" and theregistration number are displayed on limited or restricted category aircraftor experimental or provisionally certificated aircraft, the operator shallalso display on that aircraft near each entrance to the cabin or cockpit, inletters not less than 2 inches nor more than 6 inches in height, the words"limited," "restricted," "experimental," or "provisional airworthiness," asthe case may be.________________________________________________________________________________
OK, let's get this one straight...Below see the regs, in their entirety, but first, the discussion.How is all this interpreted?Every GADO and FSDO that I've ever worked with say this:Even if you DO have the "NX" number displayed, you STILL must have the 2""EXPERIMENTAL" on display where it is visible to each occupant entering theaircraft.Why? Several reasons, probably, but I imagine it comes down to these. "Gonnafly it in a movie?" or "It isn't an OLD airplane, you just built it" (Yep,it IS the same "external configuration" as Bernies originals, but they don'tcare) or else it's classic CYA... you may know more about this particularreg than the FAA rep that shows up to sign off your airplane.... but,legally, his is the final word.Remember, the 2" EXPERIMENTAL doesn't have to be on the OUTSIDE of theairplane... just visible to anyone that enters the airplane.Also, in any 2 seat airplane, like a Piet, remember that you have to havethe "Passenger Warning" placard installed where it is in clear view of anypassenger.A couple of quick tips...Go ahead and put the "EXPERIMENTAL" sign, somewhere, where it's visible....it'll save an almost certain delay when the Friendly FAA Fellow shows up tosign off your airplane.Never tell the Friendly FAA Fellow that he's wrong, or you'll have a lengthydelay before the first flight.If you're absolutely certain that the Friendly FAA Fellow is wrong....DON'T go over his head to his supervisor at the station, or, even worse, toWashington... or you'll probably be converting the Piet into a doghouse.Remember, when in doubt, be conservative.... and.... the Feds usually win.:)Ric RyburnTechnical Research/Maintenance Support Specialist/Aircraft MaintenanceTechnicianPiedmont-Hawthorne AviationNorfolk, VAThe regs follow:Here is ALL of 45.22 45.22 Exhibition, antique, and other aircraft: Special rules.(a) When display of aircraft nationality and registration marks inaccordance with 45.21 and 45.23 through 45.33 would be inconsistent withexhibition of that aircraft, a U.S.-registered aircraft may be operatedwithout displaying those marks anywhere on the aircraft if:(1) It is operated for the purpose of exhibition, including a motion pictureor television production, or an airshow;(2) Except for practice and test fights necessary for exhibition purposes,it is operated only at the location of the exhibition, between theexhibition locations, and between those locations and the base of operationsof the aircraft; and(3) For each flight in the United States:(i) It is operated with the prior approval of the Flight Standards DistrictOffice, in the case of a flight within the lateral boundaries of the surfaceareas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for thetakeoff airport, or within 4.4 nautical miles of that airport if it iswithin Class G airspace; or(ii) It is operated under a flight plan filed under either 91.153 or 91.169 of this chapter describing the marks it displays, in the case of anyother flight.(b) A small U.S.-registered aircraft built at least 30 years ago or aU.S.-registered aircraft for which an experimental certificate has beenissued under 21.191(d) or 21.191(g) for operation as an exhibitionaircraft or as an amateur-built aircraft and which has the same externalconfiguration as an aircraft built at least 30 years ago may be operatedwithout displaying marks in accordance with 45.21 and 45.23 through45.33 if:(1) It displays in accordance with 45.21(c) marks at least 2 inches highon each side of the fuselage or vertical tail surface consisting of theRoman capital letter "N" followed by:(i) The U.S. registration number of the aircraft; or(ii) The symbol appropriate to the airworthiness certificate of the aircraft("C", standard; "R", restricted; "L", limited; or "X", experimental)followed by the U.S. registration number of the aircraft; and(2) It displays no other mark that begins with the letter "N" anywhere onthe aircraft, unless it is the same mark that is displayed under paragraph(b)(1) of this section.(c) No person may operate an aircraft under paragraph (a) or (b) of thissection --(1) In an ADIZ or DEWIZ described in Part 99 of this chapter unless ittemporarily bears marks in accordance with 45.21 and 45.23 through45.33;(2) In a foreign country unless that country consents to that operation; or(3) In any operation conducted under Part 121, 133, 135, or 137 of thischapter.(d) If, due to the configuration of an aircraft, it is impossible for aperson to mark it in accordance with 45.21 and 45.23 through 45.33, hemay apply to the Administrator for a different marking procedure.[Doc. No. 8093, Amdt. 45-5, 33 FR 450, Jan. 12, 1968, as amended by Amdt.45-13, 46 FR 48603, Oct. 1, 1981; Amdt. 45-19, 54 FR 39291, Sept. 25, 1989;Amdt. 45-18, 54 FR 34330, Aug. 18, 1989; Amdt. 45-21, 56 FR 65653, Dec. 17,1991; Amdt. 45-22, 66 FR 21066, Apr. 27, 2001]And now, for 45.2345.23 Display of marks; general.(a) Each operator of an aircraft shall display on that aircraft marksconsisting of the Roman capital letter "N" (denoting United Statesregistration) followed by the registration number of the aircraft. Eachsuffix letter used in the marks displayed must also be a Roman capitalletter.(b) When marks that include only the Roman capital letter "N" and theregistration number are displayed on limited or restricted category aircraftor experimental or provisionally certificated aircraft, the operator shallalso display on that aircraft near each entrance to the cabin or cockpit, inletters not less than 2 inches nor more than 6 inches in height, the words"limited," "restricted," "experimental," or "provisional airworthiness," asthe case may be.________________________________________________________________________________
RE: Pietenpol-List: FAA Reg
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Ric,You might think so but the reg is the reg and many an FAA has beenembarrassed by not knowing his own rules. Any EAA tech counselor likemyself knows the rules pertaining to homebuilts as well as anyone else.Start looking for the NXs at the flyins and note the lack of theexperimental.chris bobka-----Original Message-----
Ric,You might think so but the reg is the reg and many an FAA has beenembarrassed by not knowing his own rules. Any EAA tech counselor likemyself knows the rules pertaining to homebuilts as well as anyone else.Start looking for the NXs at the flyins and note the lack of theexperimental.chris bobka-----Original Message-----
Re: Pietenpol-List: FAA Reg
Original Posted By: "Christian Bobka"
45.23 Display of marks; general.(a) Each operator of an aircraft shall display on that aircraft marksconsisting of the Roman capital letter "N" (denoting United Statesregistration) followed by the registration number of the aircraft. Eachsuffix letter used in the marks displayed must also be a Roman capitalletter.(b) When marks that include only the Roman capital letter "N" and theregistration number are displayed on limited or restricted category aircraftor experimental or provisionally certificated aircraft, the operator shallalso display on that aircraft near each entrance to the cabin or cockpit, inletters not less than 2 inches nor more than 6 inches in height, the words"limited," "restricted," "experimental," or "provisional airworthiness," asthe case may be.Cy GalleyEditor, EAA Safety Programscgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org----- Original Message -----
45.23 Display of marks; general.(a) Each operator of an aircraft shall display on that aircraft marksconsisting of the Roman capital letter "N" (denoting United Statesregistration) followed by the registration number of the aircraft. Eachsuffix letter used in the marks displayed must also be a Roman capitalletter.(b) When marks that include only the Roman capital letter "N" and theregistration number are displayed on limited or restricted category aircraftor experimental or provisionally certificated aircraft, the operator shallalso display on that aircraft near each entrance to the cabin or cockpit, inletters not less than 2 inches nor more than 6 inches in height, the words"limited," "restricted," "experimental," or "provisional airworthiness," asthe case may be.Cy GalleyEditor, EAA Safety Programscgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.org----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: FAA Reg
Original Posted By: John Hofmann
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: FAA Reg
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: FAA Reg
RE: Pietenpol-List: FAA Reg
Original Posted By: "Cy Galley"
>Ric,>Start looking for the NXs at the flyins and note the lack of the>experimental.>>chris bobkaYep, you're right... I've seen it a lot. I've also been involved in buildingabout a dozen homebuilts, and have worked in the industry, off and on, sincethe 70s.Yep, the reg is the reg. But the FAA employee on the scene is theinterpretation of the reg you have to worry about. Yes, you can certainlyshow it to the Friendly FAA Fellow when he's there.And he can certainly find 143 problems with your airplane that need to berectified before he'll hand over the AW.Next time I'm back in my old neck of the woods, I'll take a picture of the$25,000 planter. It took the guy 10 years to build, and started life as anairplane.Never got it licensed.I work in a Part 145 repair station. Truth is, most of the people that wedeal with every day that work for the FAA are extremely friendly, helpfuland courteous. Another truth is that many in the FAA don't like homebuilts.It's unfortunate, but true.Fortunately, we have advocacy groups on our side. The EAA keeps the FAAlargely off of our backs, and has done wonders for helping to prevent somevery BAD policies from going into effect over the years, and has gotten someother changed.Unfortunately, there are also other advocacy groups, such as PAMA, thevarious business aviation groups, and the airlines, that have more clout,that don't like homebuilts, for various reasons.Good bet is to actually talk to YOUR local FAA guys, and ask the ones who'llbe doing your inspection what THEIR take is on it. Get it in writing, andcarry it in the aircraft. That way, if you get ramp checked, you can showthat he blessed it.The only point to my post was that it's easy to satisfy even the mostnit-picky inspector without ruining the pretty paint job. And it's realcheap insurance.Your mileage may vary. :)Me, I'm putting the "Experimental" on mine.Ric(Currently planning TWO projects... Corby Starlet and Air Camper)(And yes... I LIKE wooden airplanes with car engines. :)________________________________________________________________________________
>Ric,>Start looking for the NXs at the flyins and note the lack of the>experimental.>>chris bobkaYep, you're right... I've seen it a lot. I've also been involved in buildingabout a dozen homebuilts, and have worked in the industry, off and on, sincethe 70s.Yep, the reg is the reg. But the FAA employee on the scene is theinterpretation of the reg you have to worry about. Yes, you can certainlyshow it to the Friendly FAA Fellow when he's there.And he can certainly find 143 problems with your airplane that need to berectified before he'll hand over the AW.Next time I'm back in my old neck of the woods, I'll take a picture of the$25,000 planter. It took the guy 10 years to build, and started life as anairplane.Never got it licensed.I work in a Part 145 repair station. Truth is, most of the people that wedeal with every day that work for the FAA are extremely friendly, helpfuland courteous. Another truth is that many in the FAA don't like homebuilts.It's unfortunate, but true.Fortunately, we have advocacy groups on our side. The EAA keeps the FAAlargely off of our backs, and has done wonders for helping to prevent somevery BAD policies from going into effect over the years, and has gotten someother changed.Unfortunately, there are also other advocacy groups, such as PAMA, thevarious business aviation groups, and the airlines, that have more clout,that don't like homebuilts, for various reasons.Good bet is to actually talk to YOUR local FAA guys, and ask the ones who'llbe doing your inspection what THEIR take is on it. Get it in writing, andcarry it in the aircraft. That way, if you get ramp checked, you can showthat he blessed it.The only point to my post was that it's easy to satisfy even the mostnit-picky inspector without ruining the pretty paint job. And it's realcheap insurance.Your mileage may vary. :)Me, I'm putting the "Experimental" on mine.Ric(Currently planning TWO projects... Corby Starlet and Air Camper)(And yes... I LIKE wooden airplanes with car engines. :)________________________________________________________________________________