Brodhead Pietenpol Association

Original Posted By: "Oscar Zuniga"
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanks Is there any reason why the marine fuel tank(s) sold by Cabelo's could not be used as a fuselage tank? The below-deck permanent tank shown on pg. 28 of their catalog looks like the right size for a fuse mount. Any problems with this? What is the preferred installation...fuselage or wing tank? Thanks for any comments.George________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Marine tanks are pretty heavy, and unless your engine has a fuel pump, theymight not work very well. They are not designed for gravity flow systems.My suggestion if you are trying to decide how to do your fuel system is toread the Tony Bingelis books about fuel systems. There is a lot that can gowrong with an aircraft fuel supply, and when things go wrong with your fuelsystem, you will not be very happy.The lightest tank is usually an aluminum tank. Fiberglass tanks can befairly light, too. The traditional antique airplane material is terneplate,which is a tin plated steel. Are the Cabela's tanks aluminum, orfiberglass, or plastic or stainless steel? Boats can use any of the above,as weight is usually not much concern.Jack -----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: "DJ Vegh"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanksJack: Thanks for the information. Cabelos has both plastic & aluminum tanks in the range of 13 gallons on up to 25 or so. I am not sure of the weight..but I will sure check on that. I have the fuel tank plans from Keri-Ann Price . Very nice installation but looks like a ton of work. I am using her plans for the wing and it is working out fine. Any opinion on her tank plans? What tank did you use? Take care, George________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Hi George,I have not seen the Price plans. I made my own aluminum tank for thecentersection (I don't like fuselage tanks unless you can get them highenough to give sufficient head above the carburetor - gravity systems don'twork well in all attitudes without at least 17" head height). I riveted ittogether and then had a friend TIG weld it for me. I also put four fueloutlets in it, one in each corner so that no matter what attitude it is in,one of those outlets is at the lowest point. Stearmans use a similarsystem. Of course, this ads a little complexity in that now I have fourfuel lines coming out of the tank, one on each cabane strut, but I also havealmost no unuseable fuel in the tank and have efficiently used all the spacein the centersection, giving me about 16 gallons of capacity (I made mycentersection 6" wider than plans to give more fuel capacity).The fuel tank was not that much work and it was fun. I'd do it again.Jack -----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: "Gene and Tammy"
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanks To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > I'm checking into building a new fuel tank for my Piet. What > grade of aluminum should I use? Has anyone used any other metal > for their tanks? I could use extra weight up front so the weight > is not a negative factor. I'm changing from a metal prop to a wood > one, a loss of about 12 lbs Plus when I pulled my old tank I found > 16 lbs of lead the builder had installed in front of the tank. > I'm going to mount a battery and a tool box on the firewall and > that will help some. > Thanks > Gene________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Steve Ruse
I'm checking into building a new fuel tank for my Piet. What grade of aluminum should I use? Has anyone used any other metal for their tanks? I could use extra weight up front so the weight is not a negative factor. I'm changing from a metal prop to a wood one, a loss of about 12 lbs Plus when I pulled my old tank I found 16 lbs of lead the builder had installed in front of the tank. I'm going to mount a battery and a tool box on the firewall and that will help some.ThanksGene________________________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 13:37:38 -0500

Original Posted By: Jeff Boatright
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanksI'm checking into building a new fuel tank for my Piet. What grade ofaluminum should I use? Has anyone used any other metal for their tanks? Icould use extra weight up front so the weight is not a negative factor. I'mchanging from a metal prop to a wood one, a loss of about 12 lbs Plus whenI pulled my old tank I found 16 lbs of lead the builder had installed infront of the tank. I'm going to mount a battery and a tool box on thefirewall and that will help some.ThanksGene--------------------------------------------------------------------mail2web.com Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on MicrosoftExchange - http://link.mail2web.com/Personal/Enhan ... ______Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 14:17:41 -0500

Original Posted By: Gene and Tammy zharvey(at)bellsouth.net
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanksGene,Mucho simpler to build out of fiberglass and epoxy using the lost foam coremethod I decribed about 1 year ago. Ask someone in the EAA chapter who'sbuilding any composite plane for help. Carving a foam core to fit exactlywhat you want isn't hard, laminating glass with epoxy over the outside,putting in 1/4 Al blanks for the hard points needed for drains/vent/fills,piece of cake. You simply cut the thing in half, take out the "lost" foam.You got a custom tank, lighter than metal.GordonOriginal Message:-----------------

Original Posted By: HelsperSew(at)aol.com
Thanks for the reply Gordon.Fiberglass was considered as I've built and repaired fiberglass boats for a fair number of years. I discarded the idea for a number of reasons. I actually need more weight not less. I guess the biggest reason is the alcohol that is finding its way into almost all fuel. A real killer on fiberglass tanks. If you use only av gas it shouldn't be a problem for now, but I end up using a lot of auto gas.Thank youGene in Tennessee (down with the flu)>> --------------------------------------------------------------------> mail2web.com - Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on > Microsoft> Exchange - http://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail>>> ________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "Jack T. Textor"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanksThanks for the reply Gordon.Fiberglass was considered as I've built and repaired fiberglass boats for a fair number of years. I discarded the idea for a number of reasons. I actually need more weight not less. I guess the biggest reason is the alcohol that is finding its way into almost all fuel. A real killer on fiberglass tanks. If you use only av gas it shouldn't be a problem fornow, but I end up using a lot of auto gas.Thank youGene in Tennessee (down with the flu)>> --------------------------------------------------------------------> mail2web.com - Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on > Microsoft> Exchange - http://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------myhosting.com - Premium Microsoft Windows and Linux web and applicationhosting - http://link.mail2web.com/myhosting_____ ... ___Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanksDate: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 17:10:31 -0600

Original Posted By: "Oscar Zuniga"
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel springThanks Chris, I just ordered the 96485K141. I had an order ready for Mcmaster Carr anyway today, so I just added it on. I love that place. They have everything under the sun, and you can order 1 bolt or nut if you need it. (and have it the next morning). A lot of my misc. parts in my airplane come from there. Also I have been looking at your posted photos of your tailwheelassembly. I got some good ideas from you. Mine will be a skid plate, with the option of attaching (with pins) a removable tailwheel. At this point it will be a non-steerable tailwheel. We shall see how it goes. Hopefully withgood brakes, I won't need the steerable model. Dan HelsperPoplar Grove, IL.________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Gene and Tammy zharvey(at)bellsouth.net
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanksGene,Fiberglass made using polyester resin is a problem with all sorts ofsolvents, including normal fuel. But fiberglass tanks made with epoxy havebeen in service with the canard-pusher guys since Rutan first flew into Oshin the early 70's. If they're done right, they don't leak. But if weightis the consideration, make them out of galvanized steel like my Piete. Iffixed my weight problem (I'm 275lbs) with a 0-235 engine, chevy starter,car battery under legs of passenger seat and moved the engine mount forwardabout 4". With Aeronca wings get about 750'/min. climb, with full 22 galfuel, my fat carcass, and indicates 105 mph at 3000' with full 2650 rpmpower. But love to cruise at 2000 rpm at 75mph indicated, hang the elbowout the side like driving a convertable, fuel burn is about 6 gal/hr Freshjugs on Lyco gets about 108 hp.GordonOriginal Message:-----------------

Original Posted By: "gbowen(at)ptialaska.net"
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanksGordon,At 105 indicated, do you have a concern with control fluter?Jackwww.textors.com--------------------------------------------------------------------mail2web - Check your email from the web athttp://link.mail2web.com/mail2web________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By:
Gordon,Very interested in your galvanized steel tank. What thickness did you use? How hard was it to work with? I plan on forming my own and then having it welded by someone that knows what their doing. Sounds like you get great performance out of your plane.I'm in the middle of completely going thru my Piet and doing a major on the A-65. I'm not completely happy with the current fuel tank and using a heavier metel would allow me to do away with the lead.As far as fiberglass using polyester resin or epoxy I encourage anyone considering building a fuel tank from fiberglass to check around and do a little investigating pior to building. Boat US is a good source of information on fiberglass fuel tanks as well as many of the homebuilt sites (Avid, Kit Fox ect) that use fiberglass tanks. Fuel with alcohol is a big problem for fiberglass tanks everyone should be awear of..Gene----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By:
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanksGordon,Very interested in your galvanized steel tank. What thickness did you use? How hard was it to work with? I plan on forming my own and then having it welded by someone that knows what their doing. Sounds like you get great performance out of your plane.I'm in the middle of completely going thru my Piet and doing a major on the A-65. I'm not completely happy with the current fuel tank and using a heavier metel would allow me to do away with the lead.As far as fiberglass using polyester resin or epoxy I encourage anyone considering building a fuel tank from fiberglass to check around and do a little investigating pior to building. Boat US is a good source of information on fiberglass fuel tanks as well as many of the homebuilt sites (Avid, Kit Fox ect) that use fiberglass tanks. Fuel with alcohol is a big problem for fiberglass tanks everyone should be awear of..Gene----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Don Emch"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanksHi,Made my tank out of 26 ga. galvanized iron; I think that 28 ga would do OK.We soldered the seams, not welded; make flanges at joints and rivet the pieces for mechanical joining then solder the seams. You need a large solderingiron, preferably using a gas burner to heat it.Lou Larsen________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuel tanks

Original Posted By: "Gene and Tammy"
Mine is .050" 5052 Al. It is very soft and workable. I formed it all up and useda filler neck and cap from Aircraft Spruce. I clamped it together and tookit to a racecar builder who welds aluminum tanks and 4130 steel car frames.The guy is from Gibsonburg, OH (near Toledo) and does really great work. Hehas done several other airplane tanks and 4130 tubing engine mounts. If anyoneis interested I could get the info.Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

Original Posted By: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Chuck,No I haven't heard of a nose heavy Piet. That's the reason I'm looking for a heavy fuel tank. Need the weight up front. When I pulled the tank I found the builder had installed 16 lbs of lead to help put more weight forward Plus I'm taking off the metal prop and installing a wood prop (about a 12 lb loss). Guess I should have mentioned that my fuel tank sets right behind the firewall.The plane has been flying hands off but you had better believe I will be doing a new W & B after my changes. So far I'm not a builder but I would call my self a "redoer". I've rebuilt 5 different airplanes and I've been pleased with the results. I can't afford to build and fly at the same time and I hate to give up flying for very long. Rebuilding is much quicker and I still get some of the satisfaction of building, plus it's a great way to get to know your airplane. The plane should be down only about 2 to 3 months, mainly because of the engine major overhaul. I'll be flying by spring.I really appreciate all the good info and advice from this site. Gene in Tennessee ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: PIETLARS29(at)wmconnect.com
Lou,Good info. How long (flight hours) have you had your tank and how has it held up?Thank youGene ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: KMHeide
Tried this method on NX18235 and we were not happy. The tank was beautifully constructed and leak checked on the bench.It held fine for the first hour of flight time and then the tell-tale blue streaks of 100LL started showing up.After about 50 hours of flight time the galvanized, riveted and soldered tank was leaking at the rate of about 1 gallon per hour. Replaced it with a TIG welded aluminum tank. No more leaks and no more worries. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- Hi, Made my tank out of 26 ga. galvanized iron; I think that 28 ga would do OK. We soldered the seams, not welded; make flanges at joints and rivet the pieces for mechanical joining then solder the seams. You need a large soldering iron, preferably using a gas burner to heat it. Lou Larsen ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 23:04:58 -0800 (PST)

Original Posted By: gcardinal
Greg,Thanks for the heads up report on your galvanized fuel tank. Did you use 5052 Aluminum on your new tank? The reason I ask is that the aluminum tank installed in my Piet is stress cracking after only 50 hours. Have no idea what aluminum was used but I want to do it right when I replace it.Gene ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Steve Glass"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel springChuck,Thanks for the archive report. Did you put the "keels" on your skid plate, and do you think these are necessary on grass? Dan HelsperPoplar Grove, IL.________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "Phillips, Jack"

Original Posted By: Mike Luther

Original Posted By: Mike Luther
Thanks Mike. My local A & P is saying the same. I just want to explore all possibilities and find out what other Piet builders have done.Gene ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Phillips, Jack
Jack,Hate to make a pest out of myself but where have you found to be the best place to order your metal. Still haven't decided what I'm going to use but I need to place an order soon.How soon can I expect a report on that prop?ThanksGene ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: KMHeide
Ken,Thanks for the report on Corky the wimp. Where can I find the photos?Gene ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Phillips, Jack"

Original Posted By: Jack T. Textor jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanksJack,Haven't seen a problem yet, but don't spend much time at that speed due tomy ears fluttering in the wind. My buddy has a Champ and with the tightcowling he has he timed us as I tried to catch up for pictures, C-85 on theChampGordonOriginal Message:-----------------

Original Posted By: Gene and Tammy zharvey(at)bellsouth.net
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanksGene,The issue of alcohol in fuel has been batted around the canardian group alot. Concensus is use AVgas, unless forced to use a tank or two of Mogaswith alcohol. Epoxy is pretty resistant to alcohol and most othersolvents, I suspect the aromatics they put in no-lead fuel is more damagingto epoxy tanks than the issue of alcohol. I run only Avgas.GordonOriginal Message:-----------------

Original Posted By:
Gordon,Your right that as long as you use Avgas, fiberglass tanks are safe. I'm one of those that simply wants to be able to make the choice without fear of putting my self or my plane in danger. The last plane I owned (Avid) had fiberglass tanks and I didn't have one single problem. I always tested every tank of gas for alcohol. Others with the same plane, same fiberglass tanks, that did not test their gas, were having bad problems and some planes may have been lost because of it. Lots of problems with fiberglass and alcohol are well documented. I'm not trying to scare anyone or badmouth fiberglass, just want others to be informed.Gene ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By:
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanksGordon,Your right that as long as you use Avgas, fiberglass tanks are safe. I'm one of those that simply wants to be able to make the choice without fearof putting my self or my plane in danger. The last plane I owned (Avid) had fiberglass tanks and I didn't have one single problem. I always tested every tank of gas for alcohol. Others with the same plane, same fiberglass tanks, that did not test their gas, were having bad problems and someplanes may have been lost because of it. Lots of problems with fiberglass and alcohol are well documented. I'm not trying to scare anyone or badmouth fiberglass, just want others to be informed.Gene ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Gene and Tammy zharvey(at)bellsouth.net
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanksThe Canardian group I'm a member has about 1000 members via Yahoo, severalare engineers in the fuel industry. Since all the Rutanesque type planeshave all composite tanks, this problem of Mogas has been beat around a heckof alot. Biggest issue is the variable nature of Mogas, diff formula fordifferent times of year and different regions of the country. Issue ofincreased amounts of alcohol in Mogas has been of great concern lately. Most problems have come from the additives to gas eating the variousgaskets in the entire fuel system. I spent most of my career in the epoxyindustry, so can be pretty sure the least of the problems with compositetanks is the epoxy. Derakane, epoxie's chemical cousin is used forunderground fuel storage tanks at the local gas station.GordonOriginal Message:-----------------

Original Posted By:
All good information to pass along for those interested in building fuel tanks with fiberglass. I'm certainly not an engineer and don't have a lot of experience but I do have to question why those with fiberglass tanks that never use auto gas with alcohol simply don't have problems and those that use auto gas with alcohol report lots of problems. I don't belong to "Boat US" anymore (got out of boating) but up to at least last year they were paying big buck to lobby against alcohol in fuel because of the huge problems involving fiberglass tanks on boats.I've about beaten this subject to death but hope to have at least caused anyone interested to do some independent research.Gene----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Gene and Tammy
GeneYou might want to check a local steel - aluminum warehouse. I just picked up remanants of 5052-H32. Got 3 30x48" pieces for $42 total. I am building 2 wing tanks, 9 gal each.To the other post on tank baffles, they arent hard to install and add stability and strength.Dick N. ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Gene and Tammy
I have built both of my fuel tanks using West System epoxy and Fiberglass. An 11 gallon cowl tank and a 7 gallon auxilliary wing tank. When I built them I was under the impression that epoxy resins were unaffected by all types of fuel. AFTER they were finished I read up on it in their manual ( It's a guy thing) and found that the company says that their epoxy resins will deteriorate from prolonged contact with alcohol. Maybe they are being over cautious but I feel that I will have to be careful with ethanol content in auto fuels and try to stick mostly with Avgas. Ed G.----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Dick Navratil
Good idea Dick. That is a good price plus you saved shipping. ThanksGene ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Ed G.
ED,I know I said I wasn't going to comment anymore on Fiberglass tanks but maybe I can help put your mind at ease. The problem with the alcohol comes from the fuel setting in the tanks, usually takes a year or more. It first shows up as gunk going into your carb. I have not heard of anyone having a problem that closley checked their fuel each and every time before they fueled with auto gas. (you don't want to use fuel with alcohol anyway, as pointed out by Gordon, that it destroys many other things on your engine). It's easy to make a tester for your fuel for alcohol. If you need that info, contact me off line. Gene ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Roman Bukolt"
Folks:Bellow are a series of snippets form the Flyrotary list (I lurk) where the subject of alcohol in fuel and composite fuel tanks was recently discussed. (a few fast glass builders). and my be of interest to composite fuel tank builders here.you may find more on the subject here:Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/michael silviusscarborough, maine-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------After flying for six years, finally removed and disassembled my glass andfoam header tank. During those six years I periodically used ethanol fueland whatever. Always used auto fuel. No evidence of degradation of anycomponent....soft aluminum, foam, epoxy. All looks perfect. I'm going to replace glass tank with aluminum so I can mount two wetpumps inside. Wet pumps the only way to go for safety advantage.Just a reminder, all epoxy that is fuel exposed must be high ratio type.Like 4 to 1. 50/50 ratio epoxies can NOT handle fuel over time.-al wickCozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable valve lift and camtiming. Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland,OregonGlass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment info:http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pa ... ---------I used both the Aeropoxy and West Systems in the construction of my integral fuel tank.I can now confirm that the tank has been severely deteriorated by the use of auto fuel, mostly in the last year or two since ethanol has been added.JimDyke Delta N11XD-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Spoke to an Industrial Chemist with a long history in resin manufacture. He tells me that only about 4 companies in the world manufacture resin and distribute it - the complex part is the catalyst. The better the catalyst the better the total product.George ( down under)-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Just another data point for you to add to your list. Jeffco 1307 resin with 3102 or 3156 hardener is a 100:25 system by volume, or 100:22 by weight. The differences in the hardeners are time to cure... the 3102 is a fast cure, with a 15 minute pot life, the 3156 is a slower cure, with 30 minute pot life. I also use their 3179 hardener down here in FL where the temps get outrageous in the summertime, for a 45-50 minute pot life. The 3179 also has a much lower viscosity than the other hardeners so it makes a thinner mixture... makes wetting out much easier, even with temps down into the 60s. Once again, this is the resin system used in the Lancairs.Marvin Kaye ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------The ratio info I got from both Gary Hunter and personal experience. In general, ratios near 50/50 are not as chemical resistant. But I know nothing about EZ poxy directly.-al wick-------------------------------------------------------------------To put a bit of perspective on this, one will be hard pressed to find a laminating epoxy that is in the 100:25 range, such as Al W wrote.E-Z Poxy 100:45 by weightMGS 285/287 (and 335) 100:45 by weightPro-Set 100:30 by weightAEROPOXY is 100:27 by weight ACSpruce's data on the West System 105/205 spec was "5:1" which suggests it is a volume measurement, but it doesn't have the Rutan Blessing, last I knew.IIRC, Perry Mick used MGS 335 and runs auto fuel in his EZ.Dale Rogers--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Charlie Smith, who used to be on the list but isn't any more is an industrial chemist. He is building the same plane as I am, and we use the Aeropoxy system. As a test, I made up some samples (1" square pieces of fiberglass) and coated them with Jeffco 9700 FCR. He made up some samples coated with Aeropoxy. He then weighed them and then soaked them in 10 (or 15?)% alcohol in gasoline. The Jeffco samples did swell some and gain some weight, but remained intact. The Aeropoxy samples flaked off and disintegrated.http://www.aerocraftparts.com/ItemForm. ... cdb7869Our interpretation was that the Jeffco coating is fine, but we are still concerned about the joint where the wing skin is bonded on as the last step to closing the wing. That area is impossible to coat with the Jeffco. That bonding agent is a Hysol material that we have not tested with the alcohol.Bill SchertzKIS Cruiser # 4045-----------------------------------------------------------Bill,My past research indicates that Hysol is a very high quality product - Used in the Europa as well I believe.George Lendich ( down under)http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/cs/ ... __________

Original Posted By:
My two cents worth.Bill Rewey has logged over 500 hrs. on his Pietenpol over the last 16 yrs.He has a fiberglas wing tank made with epoxy in his plane. Mostly he burns auto fuel but also has burned enough 100LL to eventually freeze up one of his exh. valves.Here in Madison, Wi. we purchase our auto gas from Citgo. No alcohol.Roman Bukolt NX20795----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: hvandervoo(at)aol.com
Corky,Glad you made it home safe and sound. Do you happen to have contact info for hegy? How did you like the prop and what size is it?Gene________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanksDate: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 10:15:04 -0500

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Franklin
Acceptable but very heavy. The original tanks were made of terneplate, which is steel sheet coated with an alloy of 20% tin and 80% lead. It soldered very well. Soldering galvanized steel, which is coated with zinc is much more difficult and requires special solder alloys and special flux. One method is shown here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7Imxj2_nXwI riveted my tank together out of 5052 aluminum alloy, then had it TIG welded aroundall the edges and over each rivet. During leak testing I found 39 pinholeleaks and took it back to the welder. After re-welding over those 39 leaksI only found 9 leaks. Third time was the charm and it has been leak free eversince.However, if I were to do it again I would just rivet it together and use the FlamemasterDyna-Seal product that I used when building the tanks for my RV-10.This is what Van's Aircraft uses for all their fuel tanks and it must be prettysuccessful since there are literally thousands of airplanes flying using thismethod. It is easy (if somewhat messy) to build a good fuel tank with thismethod, and the tank doesn't warp during welding like most welded tanks do (mineincluded).Jack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Philips
Good morning Jack,Your method of riveting the 5052 aluminum and sealing it sounds interesting. I checked on the Flamemaster web site and entered dyna-seal and came up empty.By any chance would you have the product number stowed away somewhere? Theyhave many different products and I wanted to find the proper sealant.Thanks, Mike.-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Hans van der Voort

Original Posted By: Jack
Oscar and others,I miss-typed. The strut ends are secured by two AN4 bolts. I'm not an engineerso I welcome the comments and help. I will add another bolt as it will be veryeasy to do and there is plenty of material, as Greg pointed out. My fear wasthat too many bolts might create a weak point in the strut where all the holeswere lined up. Now the strut end is attached to the wing with ONLY two AN5 bolts. Maybe the weakestpoint will now be the weld joint on the U-joint? Any comments are gratefullywelcome.What a great Forum,Ray KrauseSent from my iPad> On Mar 28, 2016, at 9:59 PM, taildrags wrote:> > > Ray;> > Now look, I'm not trying to cause trouble here, but I'm an engineer and I questionstuff. You mentioned that you were using two AN3 bolts to attach each endof your lift struts to the strut end fittings. Then I see Greg's picture showing*four* bolts through the strut and fitting on his airplane. I have notdone the analysis of the shear where the AN3 bolts go through the Carlson aluminumstruts but it might be useful to do a little pencil and paper work to studythat. Two bolts might not be enough to keep the bolts from elongating theholes under design stress, and it's not like you don't have long enough end fittingsto permit you to add more bolts through the strut and fitting to providemore pull-out strength if it's needed. Worst case, it will cost you some additionalAN3 bolts and hardware.> > --------> Oscar Zuniga> Medford, OR> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"> A75 power> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 292#454292> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanks

Original Posted By:> owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Philips
Mike go to Van's RV site, they have it...Sent from my iPadJack Textor> On Mar 29, 2016, at 9:40 AM, Fairfield, Mike wrote:> > > Good morning Jack,> > Your method of riveting the 5052 aluminum and sealing it sounds interesting.I checked on the Flamemaster web site and entered dyna-seal and came up empty.By any chance would you have the product number stowed away somewhere? They have many different products and I wanted to find the proper sealant.> > Thanks, Mike.> > -----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: vic groah
Mike,Following is a link to the Vans website. You can buy the sealant from them:https://vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/store. ... rosealBill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 10:33:16 -0700Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanks

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fairfield, Mike
The product is made by Flamemaster and the model number is CS-3204. The best place to buy it (at about 1/3 the price of Vans Aircraft) is SkyGeek. Here is a link to that page of the SkyGeek catalog: http://search.skygeek.com/?vwcatalog=st ... 0&y=0Don't order it until you are ready to use it. It has about a 6 month shelf life(although that can be extended somewhat by keeping it a freezer until readyto use it). It is critical that it be measured very accurately, by weight. Itis very sticky and gets on everything, and has a fairly short potlife (a coupleof hours, as I recall), but it works extremely well and remains pliable forat least 25 years, which is how long Vans has been using it. They originallyused a product called Pro-Seal (and many people call the Flamemaster productPro-Seal just because it sounds like a good name - who would call a fuel tankproduct Flamemaster?), but the original Pro-Seal product would get hard and brittleafter about 10 years, as happened in my old RV-4's tanks.Hope this helps,Jack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By:> owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Philips
Mike one other thought on Flamemaster... I cut plenty of blue paper shop towelsin 2 inch squares for cleaning up spots with acetone. Kept it somewhat clean.Sent from my iPadJack Textor> On Mar 29, 2016, at 9:40 AM, Fairfield, Mike wrote:> > > Good morning Jack,> > Your method of riveting the 5052 aluminum and sealing it sounds interesting.I checked on the Flamemaster web site and entered dyna-seal and came up empty.By any chance would you have the product number stowed away somewhere? They have many different products and I wanted to find the proper sealant.> > Thanks, Mike.> > -----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack
Thank you all Gentlemen,I will be making a larger fuel tank in a larger center section and was deliberatingdifferent materials, terne plate is more rare than a nun's fart around here,and I didn't really want to go with fibreglass. With the aluminum, I wasjust worried about potential leaks around the seams. With this material, I willsleep with a clear conscience....Thanks again Gents, Mike.-----Original Message-----