Brodhead Pietenpol Association

Original Posted By: "walter evans"
I'm incredibly frustrated........just finished trying to do some welding andit just doesn't seem to be going well. Took a lot longer that the"recommended" 10 seconds to make a puddle and for some reason I got a lotmore sparks than usual several times....and I'm afraid I may be burning allthe carbon our of the metal and leaving it brittle....I'm going to call my tech counselor and find someone local that knows whatthey're doing to give me some instructions/critiques. But in themeantime......can some of you welders (I KNOW you're out there, I've seensome of your welding!) give me a hand? Maybe look at some pictures of whatI've done and see if you can make some suggestions? I know it's not hard butI have no idea whether I need more practice or a modified technique(training)...I'm preheating the general area of the parts to be welded and I'm using a"forehand" method. Material thickness is .090, using oxy/gas and 3/32"E70S-2 rod, Victor '0' tip. The flame is tweaked down to where the featherjust dissapears and there is a relatively quiet roaring sound......I've posted 5 "pre-sandblast" pictures on my mykitplane.com build log:http://www.mykitplane.com/TaxiWay/TheHa ... =BuildLogI can add the pics of the sandblasted parts if that helps.....I simply don't know how close to acceptable (or how far away) I'm gettingwith this....... If you can help, a private reply might be appropriate butreplying to the list is fine with me.Thanks,a VERY frustrated Piet builder in Plano........________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "Jim Markle"
Jim,I'm self taught, with my AP Mentor looking over my shoulder from time totime, BUT, the hardest thing for me to get used to was the time that ittakes the work to get to puddle temp. .090" is pretty thick and should takemore than the count of ten to puddle. I've never heard that term of 10 sec,but maybe for something .032" or less. Don't think the time is a factor.On most of my Piet. I used a 000 tip. Once in a while used a 0 tip , and onthe .090" had to go to a 1 tip. What tip size are you using? If you arejoining a group of .090" matl. Don't think that a 0 tip will ever get youthere. What type rod is that? My mentor advised using mild rod only.Just another welding tip to remember,,,always point the flame, like an arrowother depending on matl thickness, mass, etc. You can also "shield" thethinner matl with the rod, not to burn it up.Practice, practice, practice.Took me years to get to a point where they're not necessarily pretty, but Itrust them.Letting the joint cool in STILL air is VERY important for 4130. Or it'llshatter like glasswaltNX140DL----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "walter evans"
hmmm, hey, few things I haven't tried!......increase the tip, get some mildrod (is that the same as R45 maybe?) and keep practicing (well, I've done aLOT of practicing!).I've started a list....this is a nice start.Thanks very much Walt.jm----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Jim Markle"
What tip size are you using? if the tip size is too small, you can heat itall day and it won't puddle.Also if you want to practice today, use coat hanger for practicing. It'sbasically the same soft drawn wire as the welding rod. Just doesn't havethe copper coating to stop rusting. Just kind of preburn the varnish offas you go.walt----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
I have never heard of 10 sec to puddle. What pressure are you setting yourgas and oxy.Popping can be caused by getting your tip too close to you and/or having theflow of the gasses set to low.If you are worried about burning the carbon out of the base metal use acarborizing flame.Keep practicing.Kenav8or(at)citizen.infi.netkring(at)mountainviewdogs.comkring(at)irisweb.net-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Jim,the link wouldn't workchris-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Coat hanger wire is not the same. Coat hanger wire can be of any alloy andunless you get you coat hangers from the same lot they probably are not eventhe same. Now for practice and automobile exhaust systems coat hangers areok but for anything else use a rod that you know is correct.Kenav8or(at)citizen.infi.netkring(at)mountainviewdogs.comkring(at)irisweb.net-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: "Ken"
I just said " if you want to PRACTICE today, use coathanger. You won't knowthe difference, if there is a difference.Would I want my engine mount done in coathanger?,,,no,,,but practice withit.walt----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Christian Bobka"
I've never figured out why links get trashed when you copy them to thelist!!Oh well, maybe it's best just to go to www.mykitplane.com and look atbuilder's logs and look at today's entry in my log....Jim in Plano....not QUITE so frustrated now......----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Jim Markle"
Jim. I found that practicing with .065 or .043 (?) was helpful. .090 and.125 were more difficultat first for me. - Icould never feel when he metal was "ready" - I'd getimpatient and start jockeying the flame and sticking the rod in before itwas ready. Also I found that starting with a simple fitting or just justsimply combining two parts with and edge weld made it easier because of theuniformity of the fitting - you don't have to deal with the heat sink natureof certain parts of complicated fittings.2 centsgood luck. Keep practicing..bert----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: clif

Original Posted By: "Jim Markle"
Jim,, I don't know about counting to 10 for a puddle, but I might suggesttrying a #2 tip, bring your flame down to about half an inch. Make smallcircles slowly until the puddle starts,, then hold straight and startfeeding with the rod. The #2 tip has a wide range of adjustment so you canincrease or decrease the flame. If she's popping,, pull the tip back a bitand make sure you use the tip cleaner after that happens. hope this helps.Carl----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: javier cruz
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: I need some welding help....Jim,I have a really good book that I bought at Hastings The Welders Handbook by Finch/Monroe. Now first I must tell you there are a few lines you have to read through. For one he talks about your shop temperature, lighting, breezes, coper coated wire ect. Made me think that a person would need a semiconductor clean room with perfect atmosphere. But I know dammed well most Pipers, Aeroncas, and Taylorcrafts were not built to his standards, but the guy is a certified welder.Some excellent things he points out are different tip sizes for different thickness material, operating pressures of your regulators, carbonizing flame (good) vs. lean (Bad) pulls the carbon right out of the material, overheating the tip which causes popping. Now I could go on but typing is not my cup of tea. If by chance you don't have a book, try and get one. I looked at your parts, first I hate to see people practice on finished pieces. Try setting up some scrap without doing all the finish work and welding on those first, once your happy then do your drilled & shaped finish parts. To me it looks like your flame went lean, you went to fast and your pressure on your regulators may be to high. A common mistake is trying to force to small of tip to weld heavy material, often by doing this you jack up your regulator pressure to high. Think of it this way, if you blow on a liquid metal to hard it causes it to puddle out and disfigure the weld. You need the right size tip, so you get a hot enough flame with a gentle touch. Watch your tip flame like you watch your airspeed, it must stay slightly rich Carbonizing (very important). The part you are welding is difficult because your flame is surrounded by metal fitting, which will make the tip get hot and pop, especially if using to small of tip. I am no expert but I hope this helps, and don't be hard on yourself, good welding comes the same way as good landings.Dan________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 20:03:19 -0800 (PST)

Original Posted By: Jim Markle