Brodhead Pietenpol Association

Original Posted By: rhartwig11(at)juno.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings

Original Posted By: "Ken Chambers"

Original Posted By: "Caroll & Mara Holmstrom"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawingsKen,Please keep this discussion on airfoil going. I feel the Piet's performance could be improved, especially landing. I have flown many types of planes, SEL,but have never flown one that has no float, high drag, and a sudden drop out on landing like a Piet. I know it's safe if you expect it but I sure would liketo float like a Cub, Champ or even a Beaver.I have my ribs completed for 311CC but would be willing to build another set with another proven airfoil if I knew what to try. I mean no disrespect to BHPor the purists. If we didn't want to improve it we would all be building and flying Wright Flyers and/or Curtiss Pushers.Corky in 23 above La weather________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Didn't Kevin Holcomb do some stuff on the Piet airfoil using the XFOILprogram -- about mid 2002 ??Mike C.Pretty Prairie, KS ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Kevin Holcomb"
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________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Michael Conkling
The Cl/Cd/Cm airfoil data that I worked up is on the Piet page within my webpage (www.airminded.net). In short the airfoil is pretty good at generating both lift and drag, not much of a suprise there. I worked the numbers up more out of curiosity than out of the desire to change anything.Kevinwww.airminded.net----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Fred Weaver"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawingsIn a message dated 1/7/04 10:37:18 AM Central Standard Time, Isablcorky(at)aol.com writes:>I suggest keep it the same airfoil for several reasons:1. It's part of avaition history.2. It works.3. It allows you to use drag to advantage, especially in emergency landing, to do a precise short field landing.Several times this fall, I would stay in the pattern for an hour, 500' AGL on short final and just do steep slip down to maybe 50 to 80', maintain 60 mph indicated, low power setting, straighten 'er right up, spot a short field landing. Every landing is different, but it's a blast to explore the capabilitiesof sweet flying plane !!Chuck G.________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Kevin Holcomb
Not knowing anything about airfoil numbers the I think real question is how dothe Piet numbers compare to Clark Y's, and other proven low speed airfoils?Anyone know of a website that has these numbers (and can tell me what they mean).Chris T.Sacramento, Ca ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Kevin Holcomb
Kevin..... Where is the airfoil data on your website.... I've scoured for quitea while and have yet to locate it.Fred ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Catdesign"
To All,I took the time to draw all the Piet fittings in CAD but have found them to bejust slightly different then what I need for my plane so I don't use them. Ihave not shared them out (and will not so don't ask) because I feel it might leadsomeone to believe you can make all the metal fittings ahead of time. Don'tdo this! Make your fittings fit your assembly. Thankfully, I found this outright before I ordered my fittings from Replicraft, who went under not a weeklater. I would have also lost money to him if I didn't get the parts and evenif I did I would still have lost money because I bet they would not have fitmy plane. That is when I decided to learn how to build my own metal fittings.It's not that hard but can be frustrating at times. Fortunately, there isenough to build so I could work on something else until I was ready tackle thatproblem piece again.MY OPINION BELOW DON"T READ IF YOU DON"T WANT TO HEAR IT: you have been warned. Van's Aircraft is able to produce pre-punched RV kits that fits together so precisethat it's amazing. They can do this because every piece is cut and drilledby computer controlled machines that are capable of using the accuracy CADaffords a manufacturer. This type of accuracy is just not possible in our (my)garage. Even if all the plans were drawn in CAD I doubt your (my) buildingaccuracy is THAT accurate. Honestly, your construction does not need to be accurateto the .01 inch. I have built model airplanes from comercially producedCAD drawing and they still have errors. Drawing in CAD does not make plansany better or worse. You still need to mesure where the part is going to fitand make the part fit the assembly. Try to keep the dimentions as close as possibleto the plans but ALLWAYS make the part to fit the assembly. It's justthet simple. I feel there is no need to take the time to redraw the plans inCAD. The most helpfull things are pictures of assemblies and parts. Thesecan be had by simply asking anyone on this list. I will freely shair picturesI have collected to all that needs them and I know others will too.To all you first time builders, of which I an one too, take the time to study theplans. All the information is on them even if it doesn't look like it at firstglance. It is also helpfull to hafe the Flying and Glider Mag the EAA sells.Make you parts fit not to the dimentions on the plans but to YOUR plane.After awhile you will get comfertable with the plans and think they are adiquite.Tones of Piet's have been built from them so they can't be that bad.Just my 2 cents sorry for the lengthChris T.Sacramento, Ca________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Fred Weaver
Fred click on the link for Pietenpol under the Golden Age Aircraft Page. It'sright thereChris T.Sacramento, Ca ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Good Post, Chris. I agree completely. Besides, most people makesomeomodifications to the design and this would make CAD plans much lessuseful.Jack Phillips-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By:
----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Ken Chambers"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawingsDoesn't even have to be anything as drastic as changing airfoils althoughanything could be an option. I would just like to see an AutoCad plan set of theoriginal design (long fuselage, I would assume that the Model A builders wouldwant to use the original paper plans?) with what most builders would agreeare "necessay" additions, seat/shoulder belts, tail wheel with steeringattachments, the front angled cabane strut from the engine mount bracket, nut/boltsizes, etc. Plus modifications most builders do and Bernie himself suggested inlater years, extended fuselage, longer center cabanes, etc. Plus multiple 3Dperspective views of everything which only take seconds to create with AutoCadonce the dimensions of everything are entered. (I would love to have aperspective view of the 3 piece wing center section plans).More drastic (and controversial) changes such as airfoil, control surfacechanges, etc. could be presented as options on separate plansets.With the decrease in plan building in general, and the low completionpercentage something like this can only help. And you couldn't pick a better, simplerand more reasonably priced homebuild design to provide a good modernized setof plans for than the Piet.Rick HollandI agree the Piet plans should be available as CAD files, and I think a Pietairfoil initiative similar to the one undertaken by the KR group might be agood idea too. I know, I know -- it=E2=80=99s blasphemous to suggest changingBernard=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9CFC-10=E2=80=9D airfoil. And it=E2=80=99s a thing of beauty, no doubt.But this plane wouldbe safer if it could hang in the air longer without power. A lower dragairfoil would help and we might get a little better cruise, too.________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawingsDate: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 12:35:53 -0600

Original Posted By: Michael D Cuy

Original Posted By: Michael D Cuy
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawingsSounds kind of like flying flat bottom wing with 10-20 degrees of flaps all the time.3. It allows you to use drag to advantage, especially in emergency landing, to do a precise short field landing.________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 14:07:12 -0500

Original Posted By: Michael D Cuy
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings Van's Aircraft is able to produce pre-punched RV kits that fits together so precise that it's amazing. They can do this because every piece is cut and drilled by computer controlled machines that are capable of using the accuracyCAD affords a manufacturer. This type of accuracy is just not possible in our(my) garage. Even if all the plans were drawn in CAD I doubt your (my) building accuracy is THAT accurate. Honestly, your construction does not needto be accurate to the .01 inch. Agreed. I would recommend AutoCad not because more precision or accuracy is needed in the plans, but because it is faster to produce a planset using it (assuming you know how to use AutoCad), simple to make even large modifications(a good example would be producing a full 1933 drawing #1 of the long fuse showing all top and bottom view dimensions), perspective views are free, can bestored and transmitted electronically, etc. Other than that it can be redrawn onsheepskins with a stone knife, if you have the time.I have built model airplanes from comercially produced CAD drawing and they still have errors. Drawing in CAD does not make plans any better or worse. You still need to mesure where the part is going to fit and make the part fit the assembly. Try to keep the dimentions as close as possible to the plans butALLWAYS make the part to fit the assembly. It's just thet simple. I feel there is no need to take the time to redraw the plans in CAD. The most helpfullthings are pictures of assemblies and parts. Correct, and the 3D perspectives AutoCad can provide in seconds give you these kind of views from any angle and for any assembly you want, with dimensionsif desired. All together in one place.These can be had by simply asking anyone on this list. I will freely shair pictures I have collected to all that needs them and I know others will too.What about builders without computer access and with no other Piet builders nearby? What I proposed was a way to make piet building easier for people and very possibly get more people building them. To all you first time builders, of which I an one too, take the time to study the plans. All the information is on them even if it doesn't look like it at first glance. Except jury struts, seat belts, front cabane from top motor mount, brakes, tailwheel. A small number of items and not necessary since the original was built without them, but I haven't seen many pictures of currently flying pietswithout them.It is also helpfull to hafe the Flying and Glider Mag the EAA sells. Make you parts fit not to the dimentions on the plans but to YOUR plane. After awhile you will get comfertable with the plans and think they are adiquite. Tonesof Piet's have been built from them so they can't be that bad.No one is trying to say that you or anyone else can't use the original plans. They will always be available.Sorry to get another "build it to the plans" war started here, I have the original plans, a pile of wood and the help from you great folks on the pietenpol-list, I will now now shutup and build.________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 16:36:53 -0500

Original Posted By: "Janis Nielsen"
Janis To get some helpful knowledgeable information, contact the medicaladvisory department at AOPA. They will give you accurate details. If you arenot a member, become a member. You will get more than your moneys worth. They have helped me many times over the years. Presently my cardiac healthdoes not allow me to fly but I am building our Piet just so I will have aplane that fits the sport plane category. It will allow me to stay atthecontrols. Don't give up until you have examined all your options. The buildingprocess is good therapy, lots of fun, a rewarding process, and I am learningto have a whole new circle of friends. All of you Piet builders have beenand are helpful. Thanks! A great group. Jim Sheen ----- Original Message -----