Brodhead Pietenpol Association

Original Posted By: alexms1(at)comcast.net
Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88 epoxy? I would like todo some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but am worried about theglue not curing properly. Temperatures are above freezing but still getquite cold.John FoxThis message may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged informationand isintended only for the use of the addressee named above. No confidentiality orprivilege iswaived or lost by any error in transmission. If you are not the intended recipientof thismessage you are hereby notified that you must not use, disseminate, copy it inany form ortake any action in reliance on it.Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88 epoxy?I would like to do some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but am worriedaboutthe glue not curing properly. Temperatures are above freezing but stillget quite cold.John FoxThis message may contain confidential,proprietary or legally privileged information and isintended only for the use of the addressee named above. No confidentiality orprivilege iswaived or lost by any error in transmission. If you are not the intended recipientof thismessage you are hereby notified that you must not use, disseminate, copy it inany form ortake any action in reliance on it.________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "DJ Vegh"
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Winter constructionDoe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88 epoxy? I would like todo some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but am worried about theglue not curing properly. Temperatures are above freezing but still getquite cold.John FoxThis message may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privilegedinformation and isintended only for the use of the addressee named above. No confidentialityor privilege iswaived or lost by any error in transmission. If you are not the intendedrecipient of thismessage you are hereby notified that you must not use, disseminate, copy itin any form ortake any action in reliance on it.________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Galen Hutcheson
John,I am using T88 and working with the understanding it will work in temps down to35-40 degrees. I glue up when it is in the high 40's and at night it may getdown to freezing or below but next visit to the shop and it has warmed back upand all seems to be O.K. Test pieces always seem to be strong.Alex Sloan-------------- Original message -------------- Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88 epoxy? I would like to dosome fuselage work in my garage this winter, but am worried about the glue notcuring properly. Temperatures are above freezing but still get quite cold.John FoxThis message may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged informationand isintended only for the use of the addressee named above. No confidentiality or privilegeiswaived or lost by any error in transmission. If you are not the intended recipientof thismessage you are hereby notified that you must not use, disseminate, copy it inany form ortake any action in reliance on it.John,I am using T88 and working with the understanding it will work in temps downto 35-40 degrees. I glue up when it is in the high 40's and at night it mayget down to freezing or below but next visit to the shop and it has warmed backup and all seems to be O.K. Test pieces always seem to be strong.Alex Sloan-------------- Original message -------------- Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88 epoxy?I would like to do some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but am worriedabout the glue not curing properly. Temperatures are above freezing butstill get quite cold.John FoxThis message may contain confidential,proprietary or legally privileged information and isintended only for theuse of the addressee named above. No confidentiality or privilege iswaivedor lost by any error in transmission. If you are not the intended recipient ofthismessage you are hereby notified that you must not use, disseminate,copy it in any form ortake any action in reliance on it.________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 14:52:06 -0800 (PST)

Original Posted By: Galen Hutcheson

Original Posted By: Fox, John John.Fox(at)na.SunChem.com
Epoxy resins of all types are addition reactions. This means that thereaction will continue until complete, but the reaction rate varies withthe ambient temperature. All manufacturers report their data at 25 degreeC., ie. gel times, time to "full cure", viscosities, etc. The chemicalreaction rate rule of thumb is: for very 10 degrees C you vary from the 25degree reported data you will double your reaction rate or you'll halve thereaction rate if you're going down in temps. Soooooo, you could expect at40F or about 5 degrees C you'd have a reaction rate about 4 times slowerthan at 25 degree C. Generally speaking all room temp, hand laminatingepoxy resins designed to work at 25 C, will not cure completely in lessthan 14 days. Soooooo, I would not put too much stress on your 40 F handlaminate for about 45 days. Better yet, build a "hot room" under yourworkbench by stapling plastic film around the edges or some insulationfoam, and put in a small space heater. Give it about 7 days under the"curing bench" then go ahead and assemble, or wait until next summer, it'sjust 180 days until first day of summer.Gordon BowenOriginal Message:-----------------

Original Posted By: "Galen Hutcheson"
the key to using T-88 in cold climates is to have the glue warmed to around 80-90F prior the intial mixing. This will speed up the curing process and produce a good joint in shorter amount of time.----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Garry Low

Original Posted By: Fox, John
I did some glueing last night and checked the T-88 containers. They recommend50 deg. I left the hangar at 50 and my joints were set tonight.Dick ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Galen Hutcheson

Original Posted By: Galen Hutcheson

Original Posted By: N321TX(at)wmconnect.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Winter constructionhttp://www.systemthree.com/index_2.asphttp://w ... TDS.pdfThe first link is their homepage. Go here and sign in as a member.The second is direct to the pdf tech pages for T88. The secondpage tells you that it is formulated for full strength cure down to35 F, just takes a lot longer. Be carefull with heating andmixing. I warmed mine in hot water and it hardened before thepieces were properly put together.Good thing it was somethingsmall!!On page one you will see a shear verses temp blurb on glue/Alum.I take this to mean the glue failed. IF this is so then the same wouldapply to wood/glue. IF this is so then spruce, at a shear strength of1120 lb would equal the T88 strength at approx 170. This doesn'tsound good until you calculate the square inches of material beingglued and realize that the OVERALL strength of that joint probablyexceeds the required strength by a fair margin.If you have a joint that will be subjected to no more than 1000 lbbut the area of that joint is 3 sq in. then the joint is capable ofhandling 3000 lb at 180 so will be safe to some higher temp.A good thing if you live in Florida or Texas. None of our flyingplanes have fallen apart yet even though some have some prettydark paint on them.If you want Wood Strength tables go here. Scroll to the bottom;http://clifdawson.ca/Tools_and_Tips.htmlClif ----- Original Message ----- I did some glueing last night and checked the T-88 containers. Theyrecommend 50 deg. I left the hangar at 50 and my joints were set tonight. Dick Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88 epoxy? I wouldlike to do some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but am worriedabout the glue not curing properly. Temperatures are above freezing butstill get quite cold. John Fox________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Clif Dawson CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca
Since I spent the last 40 years of my working life as a chemist in theepoxy and urethane industry, including formulating Rutan's Rutan AircraftEpoxy for the first Vari and Longeze's and Saf-t-poxy, feel homebuilderscan benefit from a few tips that we didn't put on "official" data sheets.1) Don't believe everything you read. Data sheets are sales tools used bymanufacturers to sell more product. I've "doctored" enough data sheets inmy working life to fill a book, due to the request of the guys in sales. Every technical data point has a range, the sales guys always want the mostattactive, not the mean or average data point.2) Almost every hand lamination resin starts with Epon 828 (formerly Shell)as the feed stock. There's 80 custom manufacturers of epoxy systems in theUSA alone, including System 3. Every one of them uses Shell's Epon 828,it's the industry standard. This basic resin is cut with reactive andunreactive solvents, because it's too high in viscosity to use by handlaminators.3) Reactive solvents are more costly but more functional for homebuildersthan non-reactive solvents. The cheaper the solvent the cheaper you cansell you epoxy system. So don't buy your resin system based on price.4) The reaction rate rule of thumb previously given is good for allnon-catalyst type reactions. Polyesters and derakane vinyl esters arecatalyst type reactions. If you lower the temperature of cure of an epoxyamount of time it takes to come to full cure.5) Most all hand-laminates never come to full cure. The only way to get afull cure on an epoxy is to get the temperature of the laminate up to theglass transition temperature of the resin, or about 180 degrees F. 6) No matter what is says on any data sheet, you will not get full physicalproperties unless the epoxy has seen it's Tg. You get very close but nomax properties are possible without a post cure of the laminate. 4 hoursat 180F is the standard post cure given a laminate in the labs beforephysicals are tested and reported. 7) If you warm the resin to 25C before using your get the approx. mixedviscosity and gel times reported by the manufacture, but as soon as yousmear it on your work, all bets are off. The gel and cure times changedependent on the mass (ie. a thin film takes longer to cure) and theambient temperature.8) Back to thread- working in cold climate. a) buy System 3's fast amine,b) experiment until you know the working time you've got, and vary thebatch size to make it all smeared out before it gels. c) make yourself alittle "postcuring" oven out of your workbench. d) don't be afraid toexperiment a little, the only thing you can screw up is the mix ratio ofpart A to part B. As long as you keep this ratio as posted by themanufacturer, you cannot go wrong.Gordon BowenOriginal Message:-----------------

Original Posted By: "John E. Joyce"
> To: Pietenpol-List(at)matronics.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Winter construction> > > > Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88> epoxy? I would like to> do some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but> am worried about the> glue not curing properly. Temperatures are above> freezing but still get> quite cold.> > John Fox> > > > > > This message may contain confidential, proprietary> or legally privileged> information and is> intended only for the use of the addressee named> above. No confidentiality> or privilege is> waived or lost by any error in transmission. If you> are not the intended> recipient of this> message you are hereby notified that you must not> use, disseminate, copy it> in any form or> take any action in reliance on it.> >> > > > > > >> Contributions> any other> Forums.>> http://www.matronics.com/subscription> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm> http://www.matronics.com/archives> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists>> > > > > __________________________________ http://my.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Clif Dawson
> To: Pietenpol-List(at)matronics.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Winter construction> > > > Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88> epoxy? I would like to> do some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but> am worried about the> glue not curing properly. Temperatures are above> freezing but still get> quite cold.> > John Fox> > > > > > This message may contain confidential, proprietary> or legally privileged> information and is> intended only for the use of the addressee named> above. No confidentiality> or privilege is> waived or lost by any error in transmission. If you> are not the intended> recipient of this> message you are hereby notified that you must not> use, disseminate, copy it> in any form or> take any action in reliance on it.> >> > > > > > >> Contributions> any other> Forums.>> http://www.matronics.com/subscription> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm> http://www.matronics.com/archives> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists>> > > > > __________________________________ http://my.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:06:08 -0800