Brodhead Pietenpol Association

Original Posted By:
Just to add my 2 cents. I have noticed references to brazing on the plans and wondered if it was OK still to do that.One of my other builds I want to do is a Lotus 7 car replica. The original space frame chassis were brazed. The new ones are robot welded. Richard Finch states in his book that brazing is as strong as the base metal.I have always liked the way brazing flows in and fillets joints for a neater appearance with less heat. Somehow I never felt is was as strong as a good weld. He also states that if you ever braze you can never go back and weld in that spot because of the brazing rod flowing into the pores of the metal.Has anybody else brazed their metal Piet parts. Do you feel guilty doing it?Steve in Maine_________________________________________________________________See what youre getting intobefore you go there http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAG ... ______Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 11:43:30 -0700

Original Posted By: Steve Glass
I was in the end process of building my control parts as per the plans years ago when this "no brazing" string came up. being a perfectionist I had a couple of weeks worth of work in my control parts at the time. I did a lot of research in an effort to confirm the claim. I check with the welding instructor at the tech center where I work who traines world champion VICA welding competitors, I borrowed and researched welding textbooks, I bought and checked out several welding manuals, I read 43-13 and finally I bought and read the book written by Mr. finch where this string was supposed to origionate from. The only place that I found anything on the subject was about two sentenses in Mr. Finche's book which said that when 4130 steel is brazed the grain of the steel expands letting brass enter the voids between the grain, when the 4130 cools the brass hardens first and does not let the steel contract to it's origional state causing the steel to potentially split along the grain lines. Sounds like one very experinenced welders opinion to me. I heard from several builders who said they had brazed their 4130 as per the plans and had been flying with them for many years. I have since remade some of the more critical parts and welded them but some of the small but labor intesive parts like the control tube bushings which would require additional weeks of work to remake the whole control tube will be flying with me. Bottom line is if you haven't made the part yet I would weld the 4130 rather than braze it. If it is a critical part like the bellcrank, It's not that big of a deal to make a new one. Ed G. ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Phillips, Jack"
Thanks Peter. It's too late for me to do as you did but it did give me some ideas. Gene------------------------------------------------------------------------------8/23/2007 4:04 PM________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: braze or weld and guiltDate: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 08:33:38 -0400

Original Posted By: "Rick Holland"
Greg, I think you are spot on with your commentary on the cost of the LSA's beingcompletely at odds with the idea that they will make aircraft ownership affordable.A quick, unscientfic survey of prices of Cubs, Champs, and 140s on Barnstormersrevealed prices between $20k and $30k (except for one gentleman trying to get$46k for an 85hp J-3.....ridiculous). A new 7EC Champ from the factory is pricedat $89k, new Cub variants anywhere from $92k to $120k, and the new Cessna162 is supposed to be in the $100k range. I cannot fathom plunking down thoselarge amounts of money for an aircraft that will provide me with the same functionalityas a used original for 1/4 of the cost. One of the goals of LSA was to get more people into flying, and aircraft ownership.So, as LSA was being developed, with the cost of used light aircraft in the$15k to $25k range, it was deemed that the cost of learning to fly and ownyour own light aircraft was too great. In order to fix that we are going to slightlydecrease the cost of learning to fly with the Sport Pilot license, andthen have market demand increase the cost of used LSA's by $10k and fill the marketwith new LSA's that cost four times more than what was not affordable before?I don't get it.But, that may jive with what the brain trust in charge of EAA wants. Why try toattract a membership base that can only afford to fly a Piet, or an old Champ,or a 140. How in the world will those people also be able to afford a John Deerelawn tractor, a Gator, and a new Ford Mustang?In addition, I could definitely forsee a replay of the post-war aircraft manufacturingbust with the new LSA market when the demand for these expensive new lightaircraft does not meet the supply. I sincerely hope that is not the case,but I'm not holding out much hope.Ah well, enough of a rant for now. My wife and I ordered Pietenpol plans, and theyarrived this past Wednesday! Time to get started. Have a good weekend everyone,RyanI think, could be wrong, that what you're observing is what some of us are holdingEAA accountable for. LSA was about making aircraft affordable again. As Iwatched this bit of rulemaking take shape it appeared the EAA was fostering itwell. It wasn't until I saw the price tags on the offerings of the companiesin that space which EAA supported and spotlighted that I realized someone wasmissing the reality check.At the latest Airventure, I was constantly cruising the area and feeling like Imust be the only guy there wondering how in the world a price of $60-90k on anew Cub variation could be considered competitive. It's competitive only withinthe manufacturing circle and certainly not within the market. The reason thatCessna sold so many airplanes through the 60's was that the price fit withina certain percentage of the medium income. There is nothing on the market todaycertifiable as an airplane whose price falls within that median income target.In other words, I'm an average guy and I can't afford what is being representedas the average market. As the champions of LSA, EAA missed the mark as they supportedthe efforts behind these unrealistically priced machines. That's alsowhat's wrong with Cessna's LSA. Most of the orders are from schools. Neitherthe schools nor the manufacturer have yet realized that they are wasting theirmoney if they can't afford to sell an airplane to someone AFTER they get theirlicense. In order to sustain reasonable prices and production, the craft haveto become affordable for general ownership. Making that happen assures the schoolsthat they'll have students in the future.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 07:59:22 -0700