Brodhead Pietenpol Association

Original Posted By: Owen Davies
To:Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet buildingAgain, thanks to all on the comments on my new plane. I would like to remind everyone to go back to the Sport Aviation 1999 issue withthe P-51 on the cover. The pics there of Mike Cuy's Piet still are posted inmy hangar. Jack Phillips and Larry Williams also had nice spreads in the past.Mike Cuy and Chuck Ganzer both have nice videos on building and flying the Piet.While building watching these videos can be a great source of inspiration. For all new builders, try to set aside time to make it to Brodhead, Wi. for thePiet fly in. It happens just before OSH and you get to meet lots of the peopleon this list. ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 22:17:08 -0500

Original Posted By: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
To:Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet buildingAgain, thanks to all on the comments on my new plane. I would like to remind everyone to go back to the Sport Aviation 1999 issue withthe P-51 on the cover. The pics there of Mike Cuy's Piet still are posted inmy hangar. Jack Phillips and Larry Williams also had nice spreads in the past.Mike Cuy and Chuck Ganzer both have nice videos on building and flying the Piet.While building watching these videos can be a great source of inspiration.For all new builders, try to set aside time to make it to Brodhead, Wi. for thePiet fly in. It happens just before OSH and you get to meet lots of the peopleon this list. Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP "Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, there you long to return, to break the surly bonds of earth and touch the face of God!" -da Vinci/John Gillespie Magee ---------------------------------Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP"
Again, thanks to all on the comments on my new plane.I would like to remind everyone to go back to the Sport Aviation 1999 issue with the P-51 on the cover. The pics there of Mike Cuy's Piet still are posted in my hangar. Jack Phillips and Larry Williams also had nice spreads in the past.Mike Cuy and Chuck Ganzer both have nice videos on building and flying the Piet. While building watching these videos can be a great source of inspiration.For all new builders, try to set aside time to make it to Brodhead, Wi. for the Piet fly in. It happens just before OSH and you get to meet lots of the people on this list.Dick N.________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 10:50:47 -0800 (PST)

Original Posted By: "Dick Navratil"
DickThat must be a common builders thing I too have some piet pics hanging in my shopfor inspitation. I have not seen your cover shot, I don't get the mag I amcertain they would be disapointing after seeing your build in Broadhead this pastyear. Certainly an impressive piece of work and a great build an inspirationto us all. John RecineSent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: "Dick Navratil"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet buildingKen,ya got a phone number we can use?JohnIn a message dated 2/21/2008 3:21:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com writes:John, and other pieters....I called the magazine company (EAA) and they said they would send me a copy at no charge. I say give them a call and see if they can send you a copy..KenAmsafetyC(at)aol.com wrote:--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: AmsafetyC(at)aol.comDickThat must be a common builders thing I too have some piet pics hanging in my shop for inspitation. I have not seen your cover shot, I don't get the mag I am certain they would be disapointing after seeing your build in Broadhead this past year. Certainly an impressive piece of work and a great build an inspiration to us all. John RecineSent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP"

Original Posted By: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP"

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Most magazines, and I believe SA also, will sell high quality prints of anypictures that have been in their magazine for a pretty reasonable price andin various different sizes.Brian KrautEngineering Alternatives, Inc.www.engalt.com -----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet buildingI called and spoke with Mary Jones, my copy is in the mail, thanks to Ken. I told her about the impact, she was surprised to hear from me the second Pieter this week. She also took the time to tell me she was sending a new membership kit in case I was interested in renewing my expired membership.Naturally that's gonna happen just haven't gotten to it in the past JohnIn a message dated 2/21/2008 4:55:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, brian.kraut(at)engalt.com writes:Most magazines, and I believe SA also, will sell high quality prints of any pictures that have been in their magazine for a pretty reasonable price and in various different sizes.Brian KrautEngineering Alternatives, Inc.www.engalt.com -----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: "walt evans"

Original Posted By: "James"
Hi Could one of you kind gentleman do me a favor and call and get me a copy sent outwith a membership pack as well.It would be greatly appreciated. Address isCarson Vella38 Bell RdGlasshouse mountainsQueensland 4518AustraliaThanks in advanceCarsonRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

Original Posted By: Steve Ruse

Original Posted By: "carson"

Carson, Has anyone called in your request? If not, let me know and I'll make the call.Gene in Tennessee----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Owen Davies
In New Zeland Wayne Willson's RW Storch is glued together with Polyurethaneglue.http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/wilson ... s1.jpgmore photos:http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/wilsonnz/here it is flying:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSiTNQgj ... elatedthis is the flavor he used:http://www.excelglue.com/one.htmMichael in Maine________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 21:37:28 -0500

Original Posted By: "Michael Silvius"
Hi GeneNo I don't think anyone has. It would be great if you couldThank you very muchCarsonRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

Original Posted By: "jimboyer(at)hughes.net"

Original Posted By: "carson"
Carson,Just spoke with Mary Jones of EAA and she assured me it would be on it's way.EnjoyGene in Tennessee----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Owen Davies

Original Posted By: "Gene & Tammy"
A more accurate line for this discussion is that I don't know enough to knowthat I don't know.>At this point, resorcinol and T-88 are beginning to remind me of the old>line, "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM." This does not satisfy my>wish for agrarian self-reliance. And one of the sources, I think it was>Adhesives Toolkit, says that resorcinols have some problems with shock.>Owen,________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "carson"
For what it's worth, from the archives, here's a link to the glue comparisonarticle:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... Personally, I have no problem with epoxy, and that's what I'm using. It's awell proven adhesive that's easy to use, and not too difficult to obtain.Some say it's messy, but I have no problems with it. However, there arethose that develop a sensitivity to epoxies, which would make their useproblematic. And resorcinol is a formaldehyde based adhesive. Formaldehydevapors are a known carcinogen (along with a gazillion other things, such aswood dust). Having recently developed a nasty sensitivity to cyanoacrylates(super glue), I can attest to the fact that it ain't no fun when you developa sudden difficulty to do things like breathing. The onset of my reactionwas sudden and unexpected. I don't go near the stuff anymore.So, as a reminder, be sure to avoid getting adhesives on your skin, andavoid breathing fumes from almost all adhesives. And look both ways beforecrossing the street.Bill C.________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet building

Original Posted By: VAHOWDY(at)aol.com
Thanks GeneI look forward to reading itThank you very muchCarsonRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

Original Posted By: "MikeD"
Subject: Re: Polyurethane glues (Was: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce Alternatives)I Hear a lot of talk about t-88 as the best glue. I known from experience that t-88 can lay on the surface (birch and mahogany ply) and not penetrate. Ithink it is important be sure the glue is worked in. Moving the joint to be sure both sides are well wetted. Also a cold shop makes the glue thicker and less likely to penetrate. I have been very impressed with the strength of construction adhesives. They don't bubble like other polyurathanes(reducing bonding area), are water proof, don't get brittle (like white glue)and you can get them at the local Home Depot. All this is just talk. Glue up some test pieces,test to destruction, and feel good about your choice!Howdy**************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-plea ... 0000002598)________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Polyurethane glues (Was: Re: Spruce Alternatives)

Original Posted By: Owen Davies
owen5819(at)comcast.net wrote:> There are some interesting pages about glues at > http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/ ... html#Types > and the links.> > The author lists polyurethanes among the rubber adhesives but notes that > they could equally be considered thermosetting, like resorcinol and > epoxy. His description of polyurethanes reads: "Two component adhesives > which can be formulated for applications. Resistant to acids, oils, some > solvents and alkalis. Susceptible to moisture. Load bearing duties > viable. Flexible bonds suitable for shock and vibratory loading. High > strength joints." Elsewhere, he says polyurethanes are suitable for > applications involving vibration and shock, which sounds promising. > However, two component? How does this apply to the single-component > formulations we can find?> > Also, I'm not sure how this meshes with Gordon's clearly knowledgeable > observations. It could be that they are both right: Polyurethane > adhesives are not nearly as good as epoxies, but they do not have to be > perfect in order to be good enough. Not sure I would want to trust that > guess, however.> > In the pages above, the most interesting glues appear to be > rubber-modified epoxies. Fantastic strength and peel and sheer > resistance. No idea about cost or other limitations.> > Two components polyurethane adhesives differ from one component not in the basicchemistry and cure reaction, but more in the intended application. Both use a polyurethane polyol (short for polymeric alcohol, containing functional-OH groups) and an isocyanate curative (containing functional -NCO groups).-OH's and -NCO's react to form a urethane bond between the two molecules. Ideallythey (they being the -OH and _NCO groups hanging off the polyol and curativemolecules respectively) are present in pretty much equal quantities for acomplete cure reaction to take place. As a sidenote to remember, isocyanateslove to react with water - HOH, right? - forming urea and CO2 gas in the process.Water will consume isocyanate curative if present during cure. Two-component systems (we're not talking two part foams here, those are not adhesivesthough they do stick to things somewhat) are part A & B like epoxies, withone side generally consisting of the polyol, plasticizer if used, structuralfillers including thixotroping agents if called for, and coupling/wetting agents.The other generally consists of the curative and fillers, said fillersadding to the overall percentage of structural filler as well as modifying theviscosity of the curative side into a convenient system for the end user. (forthose that know adhesives yeah I know adducts etc. are used but they are basedon these materials so I tried not to confuse the issue). There are other thisesand thats added on either side to modify this or that property. They canbe modified to be very elastic and pliable when cured, or to be more firm butstill with some elastomeric properties which makes them very good at absorbingmechical shock. They bond to a wide variety of substrates quite tenaciously,and are often a good choice for bonding dissimilar materials esp. with differingmechanical or thermal expansion properties for example (hello, bondline stress),i.e. they might be used for a flexible bond between steel and plastic parts.These systems are not designed to foam, they are designed to fill moderate gapswith 100% adhesive. As non-foaming systems, the surface contact on each substrateis nearly 100%, and the cross-section is ideally void-free so that the mechanicalproperties of the system are fully realized.Water is bad for these systems, it will eat up valuable curative resulting in asofter, weaker cured material with voids, and the mechanical properties all suffer.The one component systems we're talking about here are all gap filling (foaming)formulations. The basic constituents are a polyol, a blocked isocyanate (onethat stays pretty much non-reactive until it encounters a particular environmentto trigger it), and a surfactant. Before I mentioned how much isocyanates love reacting with water, so you may wonderwhat role water plays in this scenario, as the instructions advise you thatthere must be moisture present. There are two:1. Water is the key that unlocks the isocyanate curative. In the formulation, theisocyanate percentage is based on what the polyol requires to cure, plus howmuch will typically be consumed reacting with water.2. Remember the CO2 gas the reaction produces? It gets put to use as the blowingagent for the foam, aided by the surfactants (think soap..). So when the material encounters moisture, the reactions begin:- isocyanate molecules change structure to free the previously hog-tied reactive-NCO groups, then- isocyanate reacts with water to form CO2 gas and urea compounds (which are notsignificant in themselves). Due to the reactivity of water and -NCO, this reactionoccurs more rapidly than, but simultaneously with..- the -OH + -NCO cure reaction.and you end with with a cured foam.You can imagine easily how the foaming adhesives would have much different propertiesthan the two-part adhesives. In the case of wood, the foamed adhesivesare often tough enough to meet the surface properties of the substrates, meaningthe bond is as tough as the wood. Often but not always depending on the wood.But when you are bonding non-porous materials with more dense surfaces, toachieve maximum strength the adhesive will depend on a near-100% fill rate, i.e.no foamy bubbles to weaken it.There are one-part systems now that exhibit reduced foaming, through modificationsof the original formulations, but using water-sensitive blocked isocyanatesmeans by nature there will always be some foaming. Dunno what other similarsystems adhesive formulaters are working on these days.Hope this sheds light on a few things, just trying to be helpful.Mike--------Piet-builder-who-hopes-to-be-flying-next-summerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:48:10 -0500

Original Posted By: Glenn Thomas
Hi Glenn,The pictures are excellent and as I said in my last e-mail, were a big help. One more question: What size wood did you cut the wedge from ? And how long is it ? (Okay, 2 questions.)Thanks,Jim ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Glenn Thomas"