Brodhead Pietenpol Association

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
I have access to a low cost CNC turret punch. I also have a CNC router andmilling machine. I have thought of making and selling parts, but have nothad the time to draw them. If anyone has the parts in CAD I would love tohave them. I would make the parts for a profit, but it would likely not bemuch of a profit and I would likely sit on a set or two of parts for a whilebefore they sold so I would not be willing to pay for the drawings. So ifsomeone already has the drawings and does not mind sharing them on thoseterms let me know.Brian KrautEngineering Alternatives, Inc.www.engalt.com -----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Cozy girls- I guess you're the "famous" ones that got written up in Sport Aviation last year. Congratulations! Be aware, however, that there are NO Pietenpols flying today with air conditioning (doesn't your Cozy have A/C?)As to the metal Piet parts, there have been several outfits come and go who tried to offer them via mail order or internet, but none of them survived that I know of, and some of them took money and ran. There is a demand for premade metal parts. I'm sure you will see many comments about very useful tweaks to the stock dimension parts, mostly having to do with extending tabs and brackets just a smidge to make it easier to get a bolt into a hole or to get wrenches/sockets on the head or nut. Nothing in the way of major structural improvements... the metal bits are plenty strong, especially considering that they were designed and flown 75 years ago using mild steel and we have 4130 available now.If you haven't gotten Mike Cuy's or Chuck Gantzer's videos on building and flying their Piets, get them... both for enjoyment and education. In their thorough and entertaining videos both of these guys point out various places where they improved on the stock metal fittings and will give you a good feel for how it goes together.Welcome to the low and slow world!Oscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CCSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "Gene & Tammy"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: metal Piet partsFYI my laser cut progress for metal parts:Previously I had posted the notion of laser cutting metal parts, now after the research and CAD drawings completed I came away with the following information:I had the metal parts reduced to CAD for the purposes of getting them laser cut the pricing difference between 4130 and mild steel is about twice. I don't know what others were charging for them so I have no gauge in determining if the pricing is good or not? With the cost of metal who knows, its almost as volatile as gasoline these days. I am considering the notion yet again for purposes of speed and accuracy. By comparison the 4130 price more than justified the time and tool purchase todo them myself. I had the job re quoted in mild steel and found the discount around 50% of the 4130. Now in mild steel I am not too certain that the time and equipment purchase is justifiably the best method especially with a 2 week delivery timefor all the parts done and delivered.I have not explored other options with the laser guy in trying to get the price lowered if I order a greater in quantity. I will keep you all posted on both my decision to go laser and the outcome should I decide to bite the bullet spend the bucks and just get it done. I expect to be in Broad head this year and would love to discuss it with anyone interested ion the topic or experience. JohnBuilding my Piet one stick at a timeNX895BP reservedIn a message dated 5/22/2008 9:06:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, taildrags(at)hotmail.com writes:Cozy girls- I guess you're the "famous" ones that got written up in Sport Aviation last year. Congratulations! Be aware, however, that there are NO Pietenpols flying today with air conditioning (doesn't your Cozy have A/C?)As to the metal Piet parts, there have been several outfits come and go who tried to offer them via mail order or internet, but none of them survived that I know of, and some of them took money and ran. There is a demand for premade metal parts. I'm sure you will see many comments about very useful tweaks to the stock dimension parts, mostly having to do with extending tabs andbrackets just a smidge to make it easier to get a bolt into a hole or to get wrenches/sockets on the head or nut. Nothing in the way of major structural improvements... the metal bits are plenty strong, especially considering thatthey were designed and flown 75 years ago using mild steel and we have 4130 available now.If you haven't gotten Mike Cuy's or Chuck Gantzer's videos on building and flying their Piets, get them... both for enjoyment and education. In their thorough and entertaining videos both of these guys point out various places where they improved on the stock metal fittings and will give you a good feel for how it goes together.Welcome to the low and slow world!Oscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CCSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?vide ... 0000000002)________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Oscar Zuniga
Wrong again Oscar! Don't know about the others, but mine has about all the "air conditioning" in the winter I can stand and in the summers the air conditioning kicks in the higher I fly.GeneN502R ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: CozyGirrrl(at)aol.com
The way I see it, the biggest problem with having metal parts laser-cut (orwaterjet-cut or CNC punched or whatever method) is that in order to do iteconomically, you would have to have all of your metal parts cut at onetime. Since the total amount of parts is so small (compared to the averagecommercial application) a big portion of the cost is going to be set-up time(programming, loading the sheet metal into the machine, unloading themachine, and paperwork), so it's best for you to only pay for this one time- hence the desire to cut all the parts at once. The problem with doing allthe parts at once is that you are very likely to find out, when you go toassemble your parts, that the plane you have built does not EXACTLY matchthe plane shown in your plans. There will most likely be differences of1/16" or 1/8" here and there. This doesn't mean your plane is wrong, it justmeans that YOU built it, with YOUR hands. However, it does mean that yourmetal parts might not fit the plane you built (especially if you made anymodifications, as many seem to do). If you are the type that is extremelymeticulous about details and very precise (think watchmaker), the metal willprobably fit. If you're the typical builder, though, there will most likelybe some parts that will not fit and need to be re-made (at least once). Ifyou have access to one of these machines (through work or a friend) and canhave parts cut in small batches without paying through the nose, it's agreat time saver, especially as compared to a hacksaw and elbow grease (notto mention the accuracy and precision).Regarding mild steel vs 4130, in the Pietenpol, the biggest advantage that Isee for 4130 is it's corrosion resistance, as compared to mild steel. As faras strength, yes it is much stronger than mild steel, buth the parts weredesigned for mild steel, so mild steel is strong enough. There IS theopportunity to reduce the thickness of the sheet metal, and thus save weight- BUT only if you know what you are doing. Most builders don't have a clueas to how these calculations would be done, and so should stick to theplans. If the only advantage of 4130 was the increased strength (which isn'treally needed in this case), I wouldn't bother paying the extra money, andjust go with mild steel. But the added corrosion resistance of 4130 is adistinct advantage that should not be overlooked.(my 2 cents)Bill C.________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "Brian Kraut"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: metal Piet partsDear Oscar,"Cozy girls- I guess you're the "famous" ones that got written up in Sport Aviation last year."... famous, no, but it seems we got a bit of attention for awhile."Congratulations! Be aware, however, that there are NO Pietenpols flying today with air conditioning (doesn't your Cozy have A/C?)"... no A/C in the Cozy, lots of ventilation though when needed. Where it flys you need HEAT not A/C.The Cozy is a great cross country long distance voyager, we want something for flying around the patch, up and down the rivers we are surrounded with andacross the farmlands, the Piet will be perfect. I have flown slower... I used to fly balloons =)"As to the metal Piet parts, there have been several outfits come and go who tried to offer them via mail order or internet, but none of them survived that I know of..."... yes, we noticed. We went into this business full time several years ago to replace the Rutan specified supplier and several garage operations that had gone out of business. We agree with you that it would be a bad venture ifthe Piet hardware were our only business or even as a side business. We have extensive product design, development and prototyping experience prior to aircraft hardware plus much of the manufacturing tools ourselves so it helps keepcost down. Since we do a lot of it our laser and waterjet vendors keep the sheet materials we use in stock and we typically order several years worth of inventory at once since the price of materials and labor will only increase. This also ensures we are able to ship from stock."and some of them took money and ran."... yes, something we hear over and over in this industry. We paid 50% deposit for our retractable landing gear and waited nearly 3 years to get it.It is our policy to not take a dime from a customer until we have their order complete, in a box, weighed, price the shipping, email them the final total before we accept a cent from them. Now isn't that refreshing?" the metal bits are plenty strong, especially considering that they were designed and flown 75 years ago using mild steel and we have 4130 available now." ...even 4130 can be a liability, brittle if not handled properly. Laser cutting causes highly brittle, very hard edges, great place for cracks to begin.Holes have to be cut undersized then drilled but before this can be done the parts have to be annealed-"baked" to get them back to N condition, then holescan be drilled or reamed as needed (otherwise the holes will be so hard they will destroy your tools), then tumble deburred and finally cadmium plated, and baked once again immediately after plating to prevent hydrogen embrittlement. There's more to it than just getting some parts cut out."Mike Cuy's or Chuck Gantzer's videos on building and flying their Piets, get them..."... will do, Thanks! that should be helpful."Welcome to the low and slow world!"...Can't wait. Already stacking up the CAD drawings and toolpath files =)Regards, Chrissi & RandiCG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardwarewww.CozyGirrrl.com Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turboPlans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?vide ... 0000000002)________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Ryan Michals

Original Posted By: CozyGirrrl(at)aol.com
I will say that the Cozy Girrrls produce parts that are functional works of art.=C2- They have the knowledge (engineers), experience & integrity that will be an assest to this or any other group.=C2- I can't wait to see what they come up with.=C2- We're in for an incredible ride of awesome metal parts that will equal the finest built Piets on which they're a part of.I can tell you from the Cozy world the sources of parts were hit and miss, long waits,=C2- questionalbe quality and sometimes down right ugly.=C2- The Cozy Girrrls came along and filled a hugely needed gap of first providing the parts and then taking it to the art form that would inspire.=C2- The hard part will be to build the rest of the aircraft that matches up to the quality and inspiration of their parts.BobSanta Fe, NM=C2-I think you would have a tough time selling the parts if they were not 4130, whether they were strong enough or not. Just my opinion. =C2- Ryan MBill Church wrote: =C2- The way I see it, the biggest problem with having metal parts laser-cut (or waterjet-cut or CNC punched or whatever method) is that=C2-in order to do it economically, you would have to have all of your metal parts cut at one time. Since the total amount of parts is so small=C2-(compared to the average commercial application) a big portion of the cost is going to be set-up time (programming, loading the sheet metal into the machine, unloading the machine, and paperwork), so it's best for you to only pay for this one time - hence the desire to cut all the parts at once. The problem with doing all the parts at once is that you are very likely to find out, when you go to assemble your parts, that the plane you have built does not EXACTLY match the plane shown in your plans. There will most likely be differences of 1/16" or 1/8" here and there. This doesn't mean your plane is wrong, it just means that=C2-YOU built it, with=C2-YOUR hands. However,=C2-it does mean that your metal parts might not fit the plane you built (especially if you made any modifications, as many seem to do). If you are the type that is extremely meticulous about details and very precise (think watchmaker), the metal will probably fit. If you're the typical builder, though,=C2-there will most likely be some parts that will not fit and need to be re-made (at least once). If you have access to one of these machines (through work or a friend) and can have parts cut in small batches without paying through the nose, it's a great time saver, especially as compared to a hacksaw and elbow grease (not to mention the accuracy and precision). Regarding mild steel vs 4130, in the Pietenpol, the biggest advantage that I see for 4130 is it's corrosion resistance, as compared to mild steel. As far as strength, yes it is much stronger than mild steel, buth the parts were designed for mild steel, so mild steel is strong enough.=C2-There IS the opportunity to reduce the thickness of the sheet metal, and thus save weight=C2- - BUT only if you know what you are doing. Most=C2-builders don't have a clue as to how these calculations would be done, and so should s________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Wizzard187(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: metal Piet partsIn a message dated 5/22/2008 11:15:20 A.M. Central Daylight Time, aircamperace(at)yahoo.com writes:I think you would have a tough time selling the parts if they were not 4130, whether they were strong enough or not. Just my opinion. Ryan M--------------------------------------------------Dear Ryan,We could not agree with you more.There are other ways to be competitive other than skimping on quality when a better alternative is available. With respect to the overall cost of building the plane we would guess that the cost of the metal fittings is not a large percentage of the cost. Spending a little extra for quality and peace of mind is well worth it. Those on a tight budget can certainly build the parts themselves to plans and do a comparable job. We are awed at the planes we see on this groups web sites and it goes to show the high level of craftsmanship amongst you.Regards, Chrissi & RandiCG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardwarewww.CozyGirrrl.com Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turboPlans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?vide ... 0000000002)________________________________________________________________________________