Brodhead Pietenpol Association

Original Posted By: "Gene & Tammy"
I'm not an expert, but since nobody else has jumped in, I'll give it my bestshot.Firstly, my knowledge is not based on first-hand, empirical data, but ontalking to people and over 20 years of Pietenpol newsletter backissues.I think I can say catagorically that a steel tube fuselage IS lighter, thequestion is by how much. This is one of those facts that is like nailingjelly to the wall, it is really hard to get comparable, real-world weights.The largest number I have seen is 30 lbs, which seems a bit high (butcertainly possible), but I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was around 20.As to "the extra effort" of building a steel tube, if you can weld, itwould actually be easier and faster than building in wood. The standardsolution for people building steel who dont weld is to get a little rig andlearn to tack weld (very simple) and fabricate the whole thing then bring itto a good welder to finish the welds for you.If I were building again, I would seriously consider a steel fuse simplybecause it IS faster and an easy way to save a chunk of weight.The Scout gear is a fine gear. I've not seen it adapted to an Aircamper,though I've heard lots of people talk about it. The vertial shock strutinterferes with one of the lift struts, though I see no reason why thiscan't be avoided. Also, be sure the area on the fuse where you attach theshock strut is up to those compression forces, might have to beef somethingup there. I think the scout gear with big wire wheels is the prettiest geargoing, and you do save some weight over the jenny gear by not having thatbig axle hanging down there.Douwe________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: "Douwe Blumberg"
Douwe, try to Google "SPOT".Once you have the device (they do offer it on line for free, every so often) you need to pay a yearly fee. It will be up to you what features you want and you'll only pay for the ones you choose. The basic cost is $100 a year.Gene----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Michael Perez
While I do not have ANY personal experience with the Spot system, I did run acrossa first-hand account of one user's disappointment with the system. It canbe found here (about two thirds down the page):http://www.ocis.net/tvsac/0906news.htmlJust in case the link doesn't work, I've cut and pasted the relevant part:Spot! Bad Spot!Not Spot the Dog, but Spot the Satellite Tracker... Could that tracker be a realdog? We bought one last month, and I have a few bones to pick!Anyone who read the ads will be familiar with the claims that it will report your location every ten minutes, and send it to your computer. Yeah, right... The ads also show the different activities where you could use a Spot: Hiking, flying, climbing, hunting, etc... But if you have problems with the unit not working as promised they ask you to look at the fine print at http://www.spotwarranty.com/Notice the part where they say: Buildings, inside cars or planes, dense wet treecover, mountains, caves, canyons, etccan reduce message delivery success.Who are those people?!.... We had expected that it would work anywhere a GPS works.Nobody I know would expect it to work inside a cave; but a car or an aircraft?My GPS works there fine... And we bought the Spot to use in our aircrafts...We found out that reliability can sometimes be as low as 50%. And you don't needto be under "dense wet tree cover" for it to fail. Even the proximity of treesor buildings seems to affect the performance. Their Customer Service Departmenttold me that even using it within 12 inches to a GPS or other electronicsmight also screw it up.The small size of the unit makes you believe that it would be ideal for hiking,but don't count on it! You would have to keep it clipped to the top of your hatso the logo always points up, and stay away from trees and cliffs.>From what I have seen so far, it does not have the power needed to perform asadvertized. I would not mind if the unit was twice its size, if at least it wasreliable in my aircraft.It might be better than nothing, but if you ever have to use it in an emergency,be ready to drag yourself with broken legs out of the bush and to the top ofa hill with an "unobstructed view of the sky" if you want any chance of rescue.If you are lucky it will already have tracked a few of your last positionsand transmitted them to your contacts.[/quote]Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 07:43:20 -0700 (PDT)

Original Posted By: Michael Perez

Original Posted By: Mark Roberts
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear

Original Posted By: Oscar Zuniga
Just a reference for you pertaining to time that it takes to build a steel fuselage.I built a Georgias Special fuselage, on gear, with controls, seat, and empanage,it took me a total of 100 hours. No turtle deck or fairings, wing mountsor any other details, but still, only 100 hrs. I'm looking forward to buildingthe Pietenpol in steel.CharleyRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

Original Posted By: Mark Roberts
I've changed the subject line to more closely align with the commentsthat are being exchanged lately. NX41CC is a very typical Air Camperwith A65 power. Empty weight and gross weight are right there withmost of the others, low 600s empty and around 1050-1100 gross. Theairplane performs beautifully on 65 HP solo. Example: yesterday itwas close to, or at, 100F when I took the airplane over and topped itwith fuel (16 gal.). It always lifts off in a short distance andclimbs out well, but I usually fly below 2000' so time to climb is nota big factor. I would characterize the performance as "very satisfactory"when flying solo. When temps are cool and load is light, performanceis almost exhilarating (to me, anyway).With a passenger, it's another story. I would have had no hesitancytaking either of my daughters up with me yesterday (about 110 lbs.each), but I've flown in similar conditions with a 165 lb. pax andwith another who was closer to 190 lbs. and climb was not stellar.Neither was the feel of the airplane with that loading condition. Asothers have said, I would decline to offer rides under those condx.I have no experience flying anything other than 65 HP so I'll leavecomments on Ford A, Corvair, O-200, Rotec, or other combinations tothose who have experience. However, after flying 41CC yesterday Itook it out of service for an engine upgrade. Everything has beendisconnected and the 65 is ready to hoist off. In a crate in myhangar is a zero-timed and overhauled A75 and in a box is a newCulver 72x36 prop that should let it turn the 2600 RPM needed for itto develop full rated power. This combination should give me a bitof extra margin when operating high/hot/gross. I will probably putthe A65 up for sale, complete and flying, with Stromberg carb andHegy prop.Oscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CCSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 13:26:12 -0700Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear

Original Posted By: "Oscar Zuniga"
Oscar, keep us posted on your upgrade to the A 75. Those of us with A 65's will be very interested.Gene----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Ameet Savant

Original Posted By: Rick Holland
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________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 17:10:56 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear

Original Posted By: Owen Davies

Original Posted By: Mark Roberts
I am a fabricator, I've been welding and working with steel since I was 12, I lovedoing it, some people enjoy working with wood and prefer using that, eachhas it's benefits. I have better luck using wood in the stove in the winter timeto keep me warm while I weld, hehe. Buzz Bear on the other hand, made the mostbeautiful Pietenpol from wood, you just didn't want to cover it and hide allthat fantastic craftsmanship. But that aircraft is still not in the air, andunfortunately Buzz passed away before he could see it fly. That wonderful aircrafthas been in the building process for over 20 years. I'm using steel forthat reason.Now if you are going to tack weld, Don't use Gasless mig, EVER! or Ark weldingeither. You could use mig, but it's not the best idea. Use either tig or Oxy totack the fuselage, Oxy is easier to than Tig, but not alot. If you weld withoxy, there is less chance for perosity in the welds and you don't have to normalizewhen your finished. With tig there is less heat saturation and less chanceof warpage. If I were just tacking, I would use TIG, but if I was welding,I would use Oxy.Just my opinionCharleyRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:05:59 -0700Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear

Original Posted By: shad bell

Original Posted By: shad bell

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Mark,That's good advice from Mike, as I understand he's quite an accomplishedwelder. FYI - I have a brand new set of oxy/acetylene regulators that I willsell to you for $100 (acetylene - Harris, oxygen - off brand) for both(that's about 50% off).Gary BootheCool, Ca.PietenpolWW Corvair ConversionTail done, Fuselage on gear(13 ribs down.) _____

Original Posted By: Mark Roberts
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear

Original Posted By: Michael Groah

Original Posted By: Mark Roberts
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear

Original Posted By: "Jack Phillips"
I have gone back through my building log and foundthat from laying out the fuselage plan full size on mybuilding table to having a completed basic woodfuselage with seats, ready for turtledeck, combingsetc came to 64 hours.The controls on the Georgias are quite a bit simplerthan the Piet. First of all there's only one stick. Theaileron horn is a simple vertical post unlike ourcomplicated horn assembly. The original wasn't likethat but was more difficult to get your feet aroundand the cable and pulleys were out in the air. I havetwenty hours logged for controls including dualrudder bars and cables.Clif> time that it takes to build a steel fuselage. I built a Georgias Special fuselage, on gear, with controls, seat, and empanage, it took me a total of 100 hours..> Charley________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Anyone building a Pietenpol should just go ahead and learn to weld. Istarted building my Pietenpol because it was made of wood and I didn't knowhow to weld. It never ocurred to me how many welded parts there would be ona"wooden" airplane. I bought an oxy-acetylene rig and had an accomplishedwelder come give me about 30 minutesof instruction. Then I worked on a boxof steel scraps making practive weld beads and became a decent welder. Iended up doing all the welding on mine except for the aluminum fuel tank,which my neighbor welded with his TIG welder. By the time I finished theairplane, the welding was my favorite fabrication activity, outside offabric covering.Get the EAA Aircraft Welding book and start practicing. This whole processis about Recreation and Education.Jack PhillipsNX899JP _____

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Hi Charley,Well, there goes my idea..... I was going to Tack with a small mig welderthen go over the whole fuse with oxy.... seemed the easiest way for me tofab my fuselage. (without burning up my wood table!)Dave-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Dan Yocum

Original Posted By:> davea(at)symbolicdisplays.com
I do that all the time with my small Lincoln mig welder with .030" wire and argon sheilding gas. Little bitty tack welds to hold the pieces in place=2C then gas weld right over them. Please explain what the problem is with that. Ed G.

Original Posted By: Ryan Mueller
Anybody have a phone number for Bill Rewey? I think I remember he doesn'tdo email, but if I'm wrong, an email address would be great too.ThanksDouwe________________________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:32:20 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: anybody have contact info for Bill Rewey?

Original Posted By: Owen Davies

Original Posted By: Owen Davies
A couple of points:1) Like Jack said, there are a lot of metal parts on this old "wooden" airplane,and, as a result, there is a fair amount of welding required. So, you will eitherneed to learn how to weld, or find someone qualified to do it for you. Weldingis a handy skill to have, even if you don't build the steel fuselage.2) Even if you choose to build the steel fuselage, you will find that there idquite a bit of wood in the "steel" fuselage. The seats are wood, the floor iswood, the turtledeck is wood, the side stringers are wood, and the instrumentpanels are most likely wood. Everyplace there is wood, you will need to fabricatemounting tabs to attach the wood to the steel. The official Pietenpol plansfor the steel fuselage are a bit "brief", so you will be on your own to figureout more details than you would with the wood fuselage (not that you won'thave to do any thinking with the wood fuse). For a idea of what a steel fuselageunder construction looks like, take a look at this website:http://home.att.net/~rdroller/virgilpie ... rce1.htmAs you can see, there is a fair amount of wood there.Ultimately, I think all builders should go with whatever they are more comfortablewith (wood or steel). There apparently is a bit of potential for weight savingsby building with steel, but I doubt that there is any significant time savingsto be had with one over the other. Far more time will be spent on othercomponents than the basic fuselage structure. It's the fiddly bits that eat upthe time. Assuming a builder felt he could save twenty hours of constructiontime (which I doubt) by using one method over the other, that will account foronly one percent of a typical build time. I've already spent more time thanthat just sweeping the floor of my garage workshop.So, Mark, stop fretting, and just go with the method you are most comfortable with(keeping in the back of your mind that you will probably end up learning toweld somewhere along the line).Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 18:25:10 -0400

Original Posted By:> davea(at)symbolicdisplays.com
Nothings really wrong with that as long as you keep your tacks small and stressthat you are using argon gas, I was just concerned that someone would see theword MIG and then go use one of those flux cored wire jobs, now that would makea horrible mess. Also you are oxy welding after tacking and that is normalizingthe hot spot created by the mig. Another thing to remember is that mig wireis Hi carbon steel, so it is usually harder than the parent material. Butthere are thousands of aircraft mig welded together so it can't be all bad, TheSlepcivich Storch, and I think Rans to name a few. Anyway, I'm not judging anybody,heck, I'm building my Piet with 1.2mm wall ERW.Charley[quote="flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com"]I do that all the time with my small Lincolnmig welder with .030" wire and argon sheilding gas. Little bitty tack welds tohold the pieces in place C then gas weld right over them. Please explain whatthe problem is with that. Ed G.

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
"...Figure something under $260 for a Piet in A513, plus a bit for the flatsheet..."No comment on steel vs. wood, but just a note of comparison...I bought all the Poplar, locally, for my fuse, tail & ribs + 1/4" & 1/8"plywood for under $300.Gary BootheCool, Ca.PietenpolWW Corvair ConversionTail done, Fuselage on gear(13 ribs down.)-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Mark Roberts
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: steel fuselage vs wood/scout gear

Original Posted By: Lawrence Williams
For a steel airplane there sure seems to be a lot of wood in it!Just to paraphrase an old Pietenpol lament. :-)Sorry, I just couldn't help myself.ClifI still can't! "Great things are not done by impulse, but by a series of small things brought together." ~ Vincent Van Gogh>> Thats great time, I know it would take me alot longer than that to do in > wood, I figure the wing is going to be a big enough challenge in wood for > me. For some reason I feel like Dr Frankenstien.> CHaRlEy________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 07:23:08 -0700 (PDT)

Original Posted By:> owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> lays.com>> > Hi Charley=2C> > Well=2C there goes my idea..... I was going to Tack with a small mig welder> then go over the whole fuse with oxy.... seemed the easiest way for me to> fab my fuselage. (without burning up my wood table!)> > Dave> > > > > -----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Owen Davies
> > > Hi Charley C> > Well C there goes my idea..... I was going to Tack with a small mig welder> then go over the whole fuse with oxy.... seemed the easiest way for me to> fab my fuselage. (without burning up my wood table!)> > Dave> > > > > --Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 19:25:33 -0400