Brodhead Pietenpol Association

Original Posted By: Mark Roberts
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________________________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 18:52:45 -0700Subject: Pietenpol-List: Acceptable Glue for Ribs...

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Resorcinol _____

Original Posted By: Tim Willis

Original Posted By: Mark Roberts
Buying in a larger quantity will of course cost less per oz. I think I paid around $16 for that size at my local Woodcraft - the largest size they carry in the store. That'll get through about half the ribs. Talking to John Racine when he was out here, he's using West Systems epoxy and is happy with it. John, what's West System cost compared to T-88? Either of those should be available at local woodworking shops or marine shops. Beyond those I'd carefully consider what Tony B. has to say on the subject.I'm very happy with T-88. Around $20 gives me a couple months of building on my ribs. How many movie rentals or cups of latte would that be?My thoughts.--KenOn Oct 30, 2009, at 6:52 PM, Mark Roberts wrote:> Well, since the job lay off, I am getting pretty stingy with my > George Washington's, but I want to start gluing rib sticks together > and get my ribs started.>> So, I went to the local dealer in town which that sells T-88 here in > Fresno, and I just couldn't justify to my wife spending the $21.95 > for the 4 ounce sized bottles. I know there are other acceptable > glues out there that have the test of time behind them, and I read > about them in Tony B's book, but I am looking for what advice you > all might have regard alternative glues I might try at least for a > few ribs.>> I know building an airplane is a luxury, and probably not for the un- > employed. BUT, building a few ribs now that I have the wood cut up > is not that expensive. So, I thought I might ask ya'll about epoxy > alternatives that you might have used that would be acceptable for > ribs. I want epoxy in the really stessful places, and the fuse, > etc,... but the rib sticks with the gussets should be OK with older, > tried and proven glues.>> Reading Tony's books gives me a start. I just thought I'd pick a few > Piet Brains for some more advice. I saw a bucket of Plastic Resin > glue there for about $9 bucks and thought I might go with it to > start....>> Thoughts?>> Mark>>________________________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 19:31:08 -0700Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Acceptable Glue for Ribs...

Original Posted By: Mark Roberts
I have used both West epoxy and T-88 for gluing wood. Both seem adequate. T-88 is slightly thicker, so be careful just how much you apply. It's easy to make the film too thick. I measure it out by squeezing equal amounts into a shallow plastic dish, actually a microwave dinner plate. I'll measure out, for example, seven passes of each part. Oh, a hint - buy the T-88 in the quart size. It's cheaper that way and lasts well.West's handy pumps fail after some time, and in any case deliver a rather large measure with each press of the pump handle. Skip them unless you are making something out of fiberglass or composite. I have found that a digital kitchen scale that reads in grams, a plastic cottage cheese container, a calculator and a tongue depressor or popsicle stick work better. Measure the epoxy using the gram scale, it's easier - it's just a number, after all, then calculate how much hardener you need and add that. Mix and apply with the sticks. Buy a box of the sticks. If you use a cheap brush for the application, the brush will absorb a lot of epoxy, wasting it and you'll have to throw it away when it cures. Sometimes it's handy to cut the round end of the sticks off.If there's any epoxy left in the tub. let it cure. You can mix the next batch right on top of it, it's inert.If you need to thicken either of these, mix in some Cab-O-Sil. That stuff is a nasty light powder; wear a dust mask. I don't know of a reliable thinning agent.Personally, I prefer the West epoxy for laminating and coating, and the T-88 for bonding.The hand cleaner of choice is the cheapest generic vinegar you can get. Sounds weird, but that stuff cuts wet epoxy immediately. Doesn't seem to touch cured epoxy. I keep a bottle by the sink, and follow it with soap and water.Incidentally, get a box of plastic disposable gloves. Epoxy allergies can be serious, and can be very difficult to get rid of, persisting even after the epoxy is long gone. Usually the gloves can be reused half a dozen times. I have heard that 1:1 epoxies are less allergenic than the others, but personally have had no problem with either of these. In the past I did have a reaction to certain other epoxies, but those are now long off the market.Clear plastic packaging tape, kitchen plastic wrap, plastic drop cloths, wax paper, things like that, don't stick to the epoxies. I have used the tape to hold parts together while curing; it's best to fold a bit of tape under itself to make a place to grab it. Otherwise the epoxy might physically prevent you being able to find a corner to start pulling it off. I routinely use a piece of wax paper to protect the kitchen scale.Plastic Resin was once considered a good glue for wooden aircraft. It was subsequently learned that repeated moisture cycles weakened it, and it is no longer recommended for that reason.Sorry to suggest all those expensive tools, the scale, etc. You can work around them, but it's worth having them. Seriously. You can usually save a few cents by cutting the tongue depressors in half lengthwise, anyway.David Paule ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Mark Roberts"
Yep, that's the stuff.David Paule----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Matt Redmond
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Acceptable Glue for Ribs...

Original Posted By: Ryan Mueller
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Acceptable Glue for Ribs...

Original Posted By: Tim Willis

Original Posted By: Mark Roberts
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Acceptable Glue for Ribs...

Original Posted By: jorge lizarraga

Original Posted By: Matt Redmond
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Acceptable Glue for Ribs...

Original Posted By: Mark Roberts
Hi Jorge!Yes, I have followed some of your posts along the way. I was hoping to meet you one day as my project progresses. I have been to see Mike Groah's piet project, and yours looks like it needs me to come see it too )=0AI am a member of the EAA chapter 376 as well. I used to live right across the street from Sierra Skypark and was directly under the downwind leg of the pattern.I now live in Clovis, and have just started the wood and glue part of the project... =0AOn Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 9:24 PM, jorge lizarraga wrote:=0A=0AIm jorge from hanford and trate to con firm if you resive- my mail I sed if not these is my piet pictured I like now were you build too and what part of fresno you live my friend live in siera sky park in herdon in eaa chapter 376 ronofs seyou nex=0A--- On Fri, 10/30/09, Mark Roberts wrote:=0A

Original Posted By: "Jack"
Don't use microballoons for structure!That stuff is inherently weak. It's useful for working adjacent to foam, and for places where you want to be able to shape or work the thickened epoxy. But it's absolutely not safe for structure.Use Cab-O-Sil instead.David Paule>> I think I am using 105, and it does set slowly, giving you time to work > it. I leave it clamped up for at least 12 hours, usually overnight, and > give it not even a light stress test for 24 hours. It has a pot life of > 30-45 minutes usually, depending on temperatures. You can thicken it with > microballoons to make it less runny and/or better fill cavities. the pot > life is less with the balloons, IMO.>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: Mark Roberts
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Acceptable Glue for Ribs...

Original Posted By: Robert Ray
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Acceptable Glue for Ribs...

Original Posted By: Robert Ray
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Acceptable Glue for Ribs...hello

Original Posted By: "Graham Hansen"
Great Ben, thanks!JackSent from my iPhoneOn Oct 31, 2009, at 8:54 PM, Ben Charvet wrote:> >>> Today I finally got everything ready for the first taxi. I ended up > moving my wing back 4 inches to meet weight and balance, and that > required replacing one of the cross cables between the aft cabanes > because to many threads were showing on the turnbuckle. By the time > I had it ready to taxi it was 1:30 and the airport was pretty much > deserted. I've installed a new Vertex hand-held, and since I have > non-sheilded harnesses on my mags I was worried about radio > interference. Well, I chained down the tail, chocked the wheels and > cranked it up. The radio seems to work perfectly with no engine > noise unless you turn the squelch way down. This was only a slow > speed taxi, but I went up and down the grass strip (1800 ft) at a > brisk walking pace, then ran it up and down the paved taxiway. The > tailwheel cables were a little loose, but thats an easy fix.>> I sent my airworthiness application in on Monday, so I'm anxious to > get it ready for the inspection. I've been flying a 54 year old > Baby Ace that is showing its age, so to taxi around in a new > airplane I built myself was quite a thrill. Hang in there > builders.. ITS WORTH IT>> Ben Charvet> Mims, Fl> NX866BC>>________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: TOM MICHELLE BRANT
Mark,Your post prompted me to remove the inspection covers under the wing of my Pietenpol this afternoon and take a look at some of the ribs that were glued together in 1959 (50 years ago!), using Weldwood plastic resin. I couldn't find a problem with any of the ribs I was able to check, whether they were glued with Weldwood plastic resin or Aerolite (urea formaldehide glue which, I think, was developed for the DH Mosquito). The wing spars are laminated Douglas Fir I-beams using Aerolite, and still looked good. Polyurethane varnish (three coats) has provided good protection for 40 years, but the cadmium plating on nuts, bolts and turnbuckle ends seems to have disappeared, allowing these parts to show signs of rust. Curiously, the drag/anti-drag 1/8" carbon steel cables show no sign of rust and the painted steel fittings are still in good shape.The airplane has been flying since 1970 and has been hangared 99% of the time. The hangars have always been of the open tee-type with no doors, so air movement is almost always present.Our climate here in central Alberta, Canada is reasonably dry, as I expect it is in Fresno. In 1959 the choice of adhesives wasn't as extensive as it is today, but the best one overall was Weldwood resorcinal. It required controlled working temperatures which I could not maintain, so I settled on Aerolite which was less critical in this respect, and used Weldwood plastic resin in some places. Even then, casein glue, which had been for many years the standard for wooden aircraft construction, was no longer in favour and I refused to use it. Like you, I was operating on a tight budget and didn't have a lot of money to throw around. But I had been taught in aircraft maintenance school that proper joint fitting, adequate protection from moisture, provision for drainage and ventilation are essential. Even casein glue did well when these requirements were met, so I didn't worry too much about using Weldwood plastic resin.Today, there many good adhesives available. If I were to build another Pietenpol, or any wooden airplane, I would choose T-88. I have used T-88 for re-gluing joints after other glues had failed and find it works well for this. And I use it for violin repairs and construction in places where there will never be a need to separate parts. Hide glue (definitely not recommended for aircraft work) is used in such places.I'm not sure I would use plastic resin for aircraft anymore because I have heard it is no longer as good as the stuff Weldwood used to make and there are better adhesives around, anyway.Having said all this, perhaps the most important thing is to protect the wooden parts and glued joints from water, dirt, etc. by using a good coating (preferably an epoxy type) and provide drainage and ventilation. Hangaring your airplane is essential---even if it is in a basic tee-type shelter. If you can afford it, use T-88. With rib construction, a little will go a long way---provided you don't waste it by mixing too much at a time. Good luck with your project and I hope you have as much fun with your Pietenpol as I have had with mine.Cheers,Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN)________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By:> bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net
Ben=2CCongrats on a successful taxi! That's one step closer to the big day - actually today was a big day too. Keep us posted. Looking forward to the first flight notification.Tom B.> Date: Sat=2C 31 Oct 2009 21:54:38 -0400

Original Posted By: jorge lizarraga

Original Posted By: Mark Roberts
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Acceptable Glue for Ribs...

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Skip,Certainly not my sphere of expertise, but Dick N. talked of adjusting the'wash' of the horizontal stabilizers with the wires to help with suchproblems. Gary BootheCool, Ca.PietenpolWW Corvair Conversion, mountedTail done, Fuselage on gear(15 ribs down.)-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Mark Roberts
>> Well, since the job lay off, I am getting pretty stingy with my George> Washington's, but I want to start gluing rib sticks together and get my ribs> started.>> So, I went to the local dealer in town which that sells T-88 here in> Fresno, and I just couldn't justify to my wife spending the $21.95 for the 4> ounce sized bottles. I know there are other acceptable glues out there that> have the test of time behind them, and I read about them in Tony B's book,> but I am looking for what advice you all might have regard alternative glues> I might try at least for a few ribs.>> I know building an airplane is a luxury, and probably not for the> un-employed. BUT, building a few ribs now that I have the wood cut up is not> that expensive. So, I thought I might ask ya'll about epoxy alternatives> that you might have used that would be acceptable for ribs. I want epoxy in> the really stessful places, and the fuse, etc,... but the rib sticks with> the gussets should be OK with older, tried and proven glues.>> Reading Tony's books gives me a start. I just thought I'd pick a few Piet> Brains for some more advice. I saw a bucket of Plastic Resin glue there for> about $9 bucks and thought I might go with it to start....>> Thoughts?>> Mark>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pget="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics=========>> *>>________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 16:35:05 -0700Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Acceptable Glue for Ribs...hello

Original Posted By: Ben Charvet
>> Well, since the job lay off, I am getting pretty stingy with my George> Washington's, but I want to start gluing rib sticks together and get my ribs> started.>> So, I went to the local dealer in town which that sells T-88 here in> Fresno, and I just couldn't justify to my wife spending the $21.95 for the 4> ounce sized bottles. I know there are other acceptable glues out there that> have the test of time behind them, and I read about them in Tony B's book,> but I am looking for what advice you all might have regard alternative glues> I might try at least for a few ribs.>> I know building an airplane is a luxury, and probably not for the> un-employed. BUT, building a few ribs now that I have the wood cut up is not> that expensive. So, I thought I might ask ya'll about epoxy alternatives> that you might have used that would be acceptable for ribs. I want epoxy in> the really stessful places, and the fuse, etc,... but the rib sticks with> the gussets should be OK with older, tried and proven glues.>> Reading Tony's books gives me a start. I just thought I'd pick a few Piet> Brains for some more advice. I saw a bucket of Plastic Resin glue there for> about $9 bucks and thought I might go with it to start....>> Thoughts?>> Mark>> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pget="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics=========>> *>>________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 21:54:38 -0400