Brodhead Pietenpol Association

Original Posted By:=3D20 Gary=3D20 Boothe
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout...Thanks, Gary.I will accept your humility with a = =3D grain of=3D20 salt! Yourbeautiful workmanship attests to your =3D abilities!The point about laminating to avoid = =3D wood defects is=3D20 welltaken, I will follow suit. After = computing the costs of =3D the=3D20metal struts, I am leaning towards the wood = struts! As far as the =3Dspars=3D20 go, they were included in the wood I got = with the Sky Scoutpackage; =3D they are=3D20 spruce. But rather than the 1" = thickness, they are 3/4", I think I =3D will=3D20 sandwich then with two pieces = of1/8" birch plywood to get the 1" (so =3D they fit=3D20 the ribs). = TheHughes Hardwood =3D place in=3D20 Chico = had beautiful parallel grainfir that would have made beautiful =3D spars,=3D20 = cheap, too. Nexttime I am in Chico, I will check out the =3D = hickory. =3D20 The ashseems to be really dense/heavy (stronger than hickory?). = I =3D will=3D20 try to look it up.Thanks for the response. And yes, I = =3D have referenced=3D20 Chris'sweb site and printed many photos.... but it = makes my eyes and =3Dbrain=3D20 hurt!Ray----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: =3D20 Gary=3D20 Boothe
To: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Thanks, Gary. I will accept your humility with a = =3D grain of=3D20 salt! Your beautiful workmanship attests to your =3D abilities! The point about laminating to avoid = =3D wood defects is=3D20 well taken, I will follow suit. After = computing the costs of =3D the=3D20 metal struts, I am leaning towards the wood = struts! As far as the =3D spars=3D20 go, they were included in the wood I got = with the Sky Scout package; =3D they are=3D20 spruce. But rather than the 1" = thickness, they are 3/4", I think I =3D will=3D20 sandwich then with two pieces = of 1/8" birch plywood to get the 1" (so =3D they fit=3D20 the ribs). = The Hughes Hardwood =3D place in=3D20 Chico = had beautiful parallel grain fir that would have made beautiful =3D spars,=3D20 = cheap, too. Next time I am in Chico, I will check out the =3D = hickory. =3D20 The ash seems to be really dense/heavy (stronger than hickory?). = I =3D will=3D20 try to look it up. Thanks for the response. And yes, I = =3D have referenced=3D20 Chris's web site and printed many photos.... but it = makes my eyes and =3D brain=3D20 hurt! Ray ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: =3D20 Gary=3D20 Boothe
To: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Thanks, Gary. I will accept your humility with a = =3D grain of=3D20 salt! Your beautiful workmanship attests to your =3D abilities! The point about laminating to avoid = =3D wood defects is=3D20 well taken, I will follow suit. After = computing the costs of =3D the=3D20 metal struts, I am leaning towards the wood = struts! As far as the =3D spars=3D20 go, they were included in the wood I got = with the Sky Scout package; =3D they are=3D20 spruce. But rather than the 1" = thickness, they are 3/4", I think I =3D will=3D20 sandwich then with two pieces = of 1/8" birch plywood to get the 1" (so =3D they fit=3D20 the ribs). = The Hughes Hardwood =3D place in=3D20 Chico = had beautiful parallel grain fir that would have made beautiful =3D spars,=3D20 = cheap, too. Next time I am in Chico, I will check out the =3D = hickory. =3D20 The ash seems to be really dense/heavy (stronger than hickory?). = I =3D will=3D20 try to look it up. Thanks for the response. And yes, I = =3D have referenced=3D20 Chris's web site and printed many photos.... but it = makes my eyes and =3D brain=3D20 hurt! Ray ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: =3D20 Gary=3D20 Boothe
To: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Thanks, Gary. I will accept your humility with a = =3D grain of=3D20 salt! Your beautiful workmanship attests to your =3D abilities! The point about laminating to avoid = =3D wood defects is=3D20 well taken, I will follow suit. After = computing the costs of =3D the=3D20 metal struts, I am leaning towards the wood = struts! As far as the =3D spars=3D20 go, they were included in the wood I got = with the Sky Scout package; =3D they are=3D20 spruce. But rather than the 1" = thickness, they are 3/4", I think I =3D will=3D20 sandwich then with two pieces = of 1/8" birch plywood to get the 1" (so =3D they fit=3D20 the ribs). = The Hughes Hardwood =3D place in=3D20 Chico = had beautiful parallel grain fir that would have made beautiful =3D spars,=3D20 = cheap, too. Next time I am in Chico, I will check out the =3D = hickory. =3D20 The ash seems to be really dense/heavy (stronger than hickory?). = I =3D will=3D20 try to look it up. Thanks for the response. And yes, I = =3D have referenced=3D20 Chris's web site and printed many photos.... but it = makes my eyes and =3D brain=3D20 hurt! Ray ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: gboothe5(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout...Gary,Thanks for the information. If = using the 3/4" spar material, would Istill rout out the spar as shown in the = plans? Are you building a SkyScout?Ray Krause----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: gboothe5(at)comcast.net
To: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Gary, Thanks for the information. If = using the 3/4" spar material, would I still rout out the spar as shown in the = plans? Are you building a Sky Scout? Ray Krause ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: gboothe5(at)comcast.net
To: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Gary, Thanks for the information. If = using the 3/4" spar material, would I still rout out the spar as shown in the = plans? Are you building a Sky Scout? Ray Krause ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: gboothe5(at)comcast.net
To: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Gary, Thanks for the information. If = using the 3/4" spar material, would I still rout out the spar as shown in the = plans? Are you building a Sky Scout? Ray Krause ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Ben Ramler
I think Vi Kapler (sp?) used to sell aluminum for struts, worth a call. (noI don't know his number)I'm sure aluminum is lighter, and I'm also sure that either metal type strutis ultimately less work than a wooden strut. The only reason to do woodstruts I can think of is for "the look". IF that's your thing, go for it,they'll work fine but will probably add a couple weeks to the project, not abig deal.I would personally use a good epoxy such as T-88 for laminating strutsbecause it allows time and slippage while aligning and clamping whereas someothers set up pretty quick, and don't like to be slid around much oncecontact is made. Epoxy is also one of the more forgiving glues if you havesome areas that don't contact, it will fill the gap and retain strength.That all being said... I'm sure they all work fine, choose one you like andmove forward.Everybody building struts, remember to not put your jury struts in themiddle, get them off to one side. It is said this will help keep harmonicresonance vibrations down by being unbalanced. Sounds good, so I did it.Douwe________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:41:34 -0800 (PST)

Original Posted By: helspersew(at)aol.com

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
I ran separate tailwheel steering cables for mine, because I didn't like theloading that tailwheel steering would put on that rudder. The differencebetween the Pietenpol and a Champ or Cub is that on those planes, the rudderhorn (where the cables attach) was down at the bottom, so the horn coulddrive the tailwheel steering. With the Pietenpol, the horn is in the middleof the rudder, but the tailwheel would be driven off the bottom of therudder (by an additional horn). The light wooden structure would have tohandle the torsional load from the tailwheel. It might be strong enough,but you would be guessing what the loads are and how much the rudder canhandle.Jack PhillipsNX899JPRaleigh, NC _____

Original Posted By: airlion

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
No problem, Ray. I took your meaning to be, would the same information applyto a Sky Scout. Having never seen Sky Scout plans, I could not say, withreal authority, that a =BE=94 spar is OK for the Sky Scout; however, it is myunderstanding that the two airplanes are very similar, maybe even the samewing. Lots of conversations on this list point out that vintage aircraftsuch as the T-craft or Piper Cub, have used an assortment of spar materials,=BE=94 thick. It is my recollection that the same conversation led to theagreement that, after routing, you basically end up with a =BE=94 spar, anyhow. Please, someone (I know this is a bashful group), if I have mis-directedRay, please jump in!Gary BootheCool, CAPietenpolWW Corvair ConversionTail done, Fuselage on gear18 ribs done

Original Posted By: Gary Boothe
Thanks, Gary.The wing is exactly the same, except 27" shorter. Routing would be a lot of work, but doable. The ribs I got with the other wood are all built and seem to be made for the 1" spar. I will have to make a decision on which way to go.I have been putting in hard points in the fuselage for the seat and shoulder safety belts; thankfully I only need one set! I put the hard pints one station behind the seat, so I will have to find the right seat belts to fit. ACS has some that might work, when I get that far. Got the turtle deck mostly done today, that was fun.Thanks for the help.Ray KrauseP.S. Guess I will have to take the Waiex to the Peit fly in. ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Ray Krause"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudderOn the Scout I'm building I ran a second set of cables for the tail wheel. One thing I learned is that the control horn should have about the same cable to cable distance as the rudder horn. Longer makes the wheel travel less than the rudder and shorter make the wheel travel further. The first one I made was short, it made the cable bend around the wheel. Howdy ________________________________________________________________________________

Original Posted By: H RULE
Dan,We just finished and test flew the Model A powered Sky Scout based in Brodhead(this past November) and originally had the tail skid. It did not take long torealize we needed a steerable tail wheel! We used a Ken Perkins design (dueto time constraint) and attached to the lower rudder with light springs (as DennisHall on his Aircamper). The process worked great except for the full swiveldesign of the tail wheel. I machined that out and the airplane flys andground handles great. Feel free to check it out at Brodhead as anyone knows howto get into my hangar. I was always apprehensive about the horns on the lowerrudder but am convinced this is logical solution (and possibly lighter?) Bill LiimatainenMonroe, WisconsinRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 04:31:58 -0800 (PST)

Original Posted By: helspersew(at)aol.com

Original Posted By:> Gary Boothe
Ray, put 1/2" wide 1/8" plywood doublers on either side of your 3/4" spar at each rib station and the problem is solved. This is what I'm doing on mine, since I inherited 3/4" spars when I bought the project. Keeping the rib openings at 1" allows you to slide them over all the doubler plates for the lift strut attachment fittings, wing tip a bow attach fittings, etc. If you make the openings 3/4", then you have to slide all the ribs on & then glue all the doublers in place, which seems like a trickier prospect than being able to glue them on with the spar laying flat on a bench.Kip GardnerOn Feb 24, 2010, at 11:19 PM, Ray Krause wrote:> Thanks, Gary.>> The wing is exactly the same, except 27" shorter. Routing would be > a lot of work, but doable. The ribs I got with the other wood are > all built and seem to be made for the 1" spar. I will have to make > a decision on which way to go.>> I have been putting in hard points in the fuselage for the seat and > shoulder safety belts; thankfully I only need one set! I put the > hard pints one station behind the seat, so I will have to find the > right seat belts to fit. ACS has some that might work, when I get > that far. Got the turtle deck mostly done today, that was fun.>> Thanks for the help.>> Ray Krause>> P.S. Guess I will have to take the Waiex to the Peit fly in.>>> ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Jim Ash
Guys, if you don't already have the originalFlying & Glider Manuals, you should get a copyby all means. Besides the Air Camper and SkyScout plans and details, there are a wholebunch of other interesting aircraft in them,well worth your time to peruse.And for whoever mentioned that they didn'tthink there was much difference in drag betweenround and streamline tubing, there really is.I can dig up the old aircraft design manualthat has a graph of relative drag betweenround, simple teardrop, streamline, and oneor two other shapes. It's significant. Oscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CCSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 09:40:00 -0500 (GMT-05:00)

Original Posted By:
Dan,I made a double horn for rudder and tailwheel steering so the torsional load fromthe tailwheel would not have to travel through wood. Also since the rudderhorn is moved to the bottom of the rudder I added some extra support to spreadthe load up the rudder. The horns are constructed like Pietenpols, two piecesof .032 edge welded. The attached picture is the current status of the project,so the design has not been flight tested.Skip----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Jim Ash"
Not necessary. The tailwheel assembly has some friction; that dampens the system and reduces the liklihood of oscillation.Check out the local production taildraggers.David Paule----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Jeff Boatright

Original Posted By: Rick Holland
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder

Original Posted By: Jeff Boatright

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Looks clean, Skip! Looking beyond your tail.you're not related to the'Clampetts', are you?Gary BootheCool, CAPietenpolWW Corvair ConversionTail done, Fuselage on gear18 ribs done

Original Posted By: Jeff Boatright

Original Posted By: Rick Holland
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Outstanding video Jeff ! Piet Pitts Death Rayhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Tzms7Qxe8This is a must-see Jeff Boatright Production. Loved the music, the fast forwardingduring mundane scenes, the captions, the pirate music and change of paces---mostexcellent Jeff ! Love the boo's, the cheers, the heckling from the crowd during your stall serious.Now here is a guy with a John Hofmann sense of humor, AKA John's outstandingvideo: Tribute to Jim Markle which still brings tears to my eyes every timeI watch it.Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:02:24 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout...

Original Posted By: Jeff Boatright

Original Posted By: Jim Markle

Original Posted By: "taildrags"
Thanks Gary and Rick.Jeff, those hinges were made by Don Harper, he is a machinist and makes some beautifulstuff. Don is a Piet builder and helps in the Sun & Fun wood shop andwill probably have some hinges, gas tank filler necks, aircraft tie downs andhis other stuff down there this spring.Gary, you can never have too many ;^)Skip________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sky Scout...

Original Posted By: Jeff Boatright
Yes, let's think about this. With the Piet, it's never about going faster. Theairframe feels most comfortable in a band of airspeed around 65-80 MPH and we'renot trying to make it go faster by reducing drag. The force that opposesdrag is thrust, and it's excess thrust that provides climb. As your friend hasdiscovered, if you reduce drag you have more excess thrust available to helpyou climb. And we all know that most Piets can use all the help they can getin climb, especially when high/hot/heavy.--------Oscar ZunigaSan Antonio, TXAir Camper NX41CCRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:09:53 -0500

Original Posted By: santiago morete
You can glue streamlined balsa to the round strut and wrap it with fabric tape and dope it. That's an old idea that was common back when. Worked well, too. It replaces material cost with labor to achieve the result.If anyone wants a photo I'll try to take one next time I'm at the airport.David Paule ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "David Paule"
A round strut is very un-aerodynamic...ish.Applying streamline fairings to round struts on a draggy airplane like a Piet willmost likely result in a speed increase of several MPH, (not a fraction ofa MPH). I have spoken with a Piet owner who flew with round struts for many years,and was very pleased with the results when he added the fairings.See the following link for an article about this very topic.http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... mlineUsing round tubes for the struts is a good way to keep costs down, but it wouldbe a really good idea to take the time to add streamline fairings to them.Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

Original Posted By: "Jim Ash"
I thought about this some more and decided that springs of different spring constants would have no effect. This is because the net torque about the steering axis is the same.To verify this, I made a simple finite element model and sure enough, with two identical springs I got a certain natural frequency. With one spring slightly lower and one spring slightly higher in value, adding to the same total amount, the resulting natural frequency was identical.Just use two springs the same, life is simpler that way.It's damping that prevents the shimmy.David Paule----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Jack
Thanks, Jack,I already have the 3/4" spars, so no need to build them up from plywood. I saw these sketches before and thought about it.I will keep this as an alternative.Thanks again.Ray ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Kip and Beth Gardner
Kip,Man, there is a lot of information on this site! My life gets easier all the time! That would also save a lot of plywood AND work. Thanks for the suggestion.Ray ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Oscar Zuniga"
Oscar,It would be nice to see the data on the drag of the various materials, but I will believe you...I plan to use the streamlined material.I sure enjoy your postings to this site.Ray----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Jim Ash"
This is true. The Cub uses different springs for just this reason. When I questioned the A&P that changed to new anti-shimmy springs on the Cub; he said this was an old trick that had been learned with many bad experiences. I don't know about the experiences; but the Cub kept the different springs!Ray----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Santiago,Thanks for posting that! I designed my own tailwheel, but had no idea if thegeometry was good.now I can check it.Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (18 ribs down.) _____

Original Posted By: Rick Holland
I beg to differ, there is a tailwheel plan in the original plans. It even has a parking brake incorporated in it.Gene ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Jeff Boatright

Original Posted By: Rick Holland
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder

Original Posted By: Dan Yocum

Original Posted By:> gboothe5(at)comcast.net
> To: > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout...>> Gary,>> Thanks for the information. If = using the 3/4" spar material, > would I still rout out the spar as shown in the = plans? Are > you building a Sky Scout?>> Ray Krause> ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By:> =3D20 Gary=3D20 Boothe
> To: > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout...>> Thanks, Gary.>> I will accept your humility with a = =3D grain of=3D20 salt! > Your beautiful workmanship attests to your =3D abilities!>> The point about laminating to avoid = =3D wood defects is=3D20 > well taken, I will follow suit. After = computing the costs of > =3D the=3D20 metal struts, I am leaning towards the wood = struts! > As far as the =3D spars=3D20 go, they were included in the wood > I got = with the Sky Scout package; =3D they are=3D20 spruce. > But rather than the 1" = thickness, they are 3/4", I think I =3D > will=3D20 sandwich then with two pieces = of 1/8" birch plywood > to get the 1" (so =3D they fit=3D20 the ribs). = The Hughes > Hardwood =3D place in=3D20 Chico = had beautiful parallel grain > fir that would have made beautiful =3D spars,=3D20 = cheap, > too. Next time I am in Chico, I will check out the =3D = hickory. > =3D20 The ash seems to be really dense/heavy (stronger than > hickory?). = I =3D will=3D20 try to look it up.>> Thanks for the response. And yes, I = =3D have referenced=3D20 > Chris's web site and printed many photos.... but it = makes my > eyes and =3D brain=3D20 hurt!>> Ray> ----- Original Message -----