Brodhead Pietenpol Association

Original Posted By: Jim Markle
where would the best place to start be, concerning the model A?I would like to know where i can find cores, parts, build logs, conversions, ect.So I can try and get a full picture. Just in case we decide that the modelA is what we want to go with. I heard one up at Brodhead.... it was soo cool!!Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 18:03:17 -0500 (GMT-05:00)

Original Posted By: "j_dunavin"
That's defiantly a start.And yes it was Ken's piet. I double checked my pictures against the west coastpiet library. I just can't believe that it has enough power to weight ratio, but when I talkedto the taller guy wiping it down on Sat. He seemed to indicate that, thoughit wasn't a fast climber it had plenty of guts, for two. He did say that it got a little hot in the summer time, but sure was nice in thefall:)Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Crash - Long Post

Original Posted By: "Gary Boothe"
WOW super good landing! I'm not sure that my normal landings in the 172 look asgood as that :oRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

Original Posted By: "tools"
So I have my engine torn down.The #1 piston scuffed pretty much all the way around.#2 has scuffs all the way down the skirt perpendicular to the pins.#3 has very light scuffs but same as #2#4 is ok.. but the last failure it was scuffed like #1.the clearance is just under .003 piston to wall.I have new pistons and I'm thinking of opening the clearance to about .006the temps and oil pressure have been great. And the fact that it has happened toall 4 cylinders has me thinking is not a hot spot is just a clearance problem.I'm going to put it back together but thinking the engine could go in my AAtruck and I know of a little continental in town if things don't work out. Ihate to think that way because I know there are A's that have been flying safelyfor years and I prefer the A. I guess I can run it hard on the ground and seeif opening it up takes care of the problem. Jeff FaithsdfRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: model A engine

Original Posted By: "tools"
Hey Jeff,Did you ever check the ring clearance? I imagine the whole set would have thesame clearance and could cause this problem..02Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: model A engine

Original Posted By: "tkreiner"
Even more thoughts...Have you checked the clearance for EACH piston? Depending on the manufacturer,each one could be a few thou different just due to quality control (think Chinesepistons here...).Even good manufacturers have tolerances and they get exceeded on occasion. Did you change the pistons last time? Perhaps you just coincidently wound up withthe right size piston in that #1 cyl this time. This whole measuring consistently and accurately down to .001 or less is FAR LESSthan trivial and matters.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: model A engine

Original Posted By: "tools"
When I ran a Thermal Expansion on your piston, I came up with some numbers thatyou might want to consider...Assuming these are 4.00 in. diameter aluminum pistons, with a Coefficient of ThermalExpansion of 13.1 uin/in/F degree, you run the calculation like this:4.00 x 13.1e-6 x Temp, and you get the expansion of the piston. For 150 degreerise, the diameter of your piston grows by .00786 inches.Perhaps speaking with some of the Model A guys to get the proper clearance wouldbe the best starting point, as the numbers don't lie, and at 200 degrees, theincrease in diameter is over .010. It will help a lot to determine the runningtemp of the engine and set your clearance - and ring gap - sufficiently toprovide .0015 to .002 clearance AT RUNNING TEMP.Best of luck with this; let us all know how it turns out.--------Tom KreinerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: model A engine

Original Posted By: "bender"
Hello to all I have a question about the engine mounting angle .In 1932 year drawings the angle is 2 1/2 inch, and 1933 year drawings - 1 inch.Why such a big difference? Fuselage length differs by only 2 inches. In bothcases, the engine of the Ford A. And what is needed at all lowering the engineaxis, or is it necessaryfor the angle of attack.?I look forward to your ideas on the matter Sorry for my EnglishRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/moto ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: model A engine

Original Posted By: "AircamperN11MS"
Ok... Here's another thought, but would think this one would show up in the water temp.I've rebuilt (including the boring) small ATV motors. The ones that were fairlyoverbored (in the .040 plus range, I think this one was 60 or 80 over), we hadproblems with it overheating because at that point the original carb jet wasnow too small.Is Dan's 60 over as well? The mixture needle usually only applies to low speed.Is the main jet replaceable in your carb? Come to think of it, had this problemin a Bobcat motor as well, at .040 over.Just food for thought and brainstorming...Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: model A engine

Original Posted By: "bender"
Tools,If I understand Jeff correctly. The pistons he is using are .060 over Chev 283pistons. I don't think he has said the Model A block is .060 over. Jeff, pleasecorrect me if I am wrong but I would guess the model A block may only be .010or .020 over which should not create a heating issue. I would understanda heating issue if the compression was raise a lot. I think also that if the engine were running lean that there would be signs ofdetonation or even a melted piston. Jeff, Since you have already said that heat has not been the issue, I would keeplooking at the clearances as the possible cause. Another thought here butplease remember I have not built a Model A but have been a mechanic for 36 years.Since you have changed to a bearing inserts, could it be possible that theold arrangement had oil dippers that would splash oil onto the piston skirtsand Cyl walls? Are the Cyl walls getting enough oil on them? The question I have is "What Changed" from the original design. It is very hard to be a Monday morning quarterback when I can't hold the partsin my hand. I am certainly interested in knowing what you find the root cause is and pleasedon't give up on that engine. You have too much time invested in it to give upon it. My 3 cents, respectfully,--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: model A engine

Original Posted By: "AircamperN11MS"
The Model A original bore was 3.876 and the 283 is 3.875.. so yes the engine isbored .060 over. The Model a catalogs show pistons available up to .125 oversizewhich makes me think .060 leaves plenty of metal. The insert bearings have holes for oil plenty big and holes on the upper side ofthe rod bearings to "spray" the walls. It all looks normal. the fact that itsnot just one or two cylinders really makes me think its about clearance butI also have to think about trust after 2 glider rides. the biggest reason Ibuilt a Piet was the extra A engine I had sitting around... I want to use it butif I need to put it in the truck to feel safe I may.JeffRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: model A engine

Original Posted By: Steven Dortch
Jeff,Thanks for that response. I learned something today, very informative. Good luckdeciding what to do. I do like the reliability of my 85 cont. engine. I can go anywhere anytime I wantand not worry about it. Nearly every airport in this country will have partslaying around should I ever need them. I put 9 hours on mine just a weekago, going to and from the west coast Piet gathering, and hopped rides while Iwas there. My moto here at work is to learn something new each day, then go home. With thatsaid, I am going home in 15 minutes. Cheers,--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2014 15:56:21 -0500Subject: Pietenpol-List:

Original Posted By: Michael Groah
I think this issue, notwithstanding glider rides and such... is FANTASTIC in termsof learning something new, and something that VERY LIKELY could lead to someoneelse NOT having a glider ride someday!I'm just throwing out anything I can, as I have run into issues like this before,and it's ALWAYS different.In terms of the overboring, I do think 60 over leaves plenty of metal, it's justthat in smaller higher tolerance very hi rpm motors it's an issue of mixture,and they'll run lean if the displacement increases enough without rejetting.Seems unlikely in this case, but since it hadn't been mentioned, thought I throwit out JUST IN CASE!It's like you said, what's different? In this case, we do have a fairly good controlwith Dan's motor. Still, SOMETHING is different. Was Dan's overbored that much? Although a car might be able to run 125 over, carmotors don't run WIDE OPEN nearly all the time. I still think the lean issuewould show in water temp, where clearance issues won't. Do we know how muchclearance Dan has? Both using forge or cast pistons? It seems the forge/castissue is likely as well. I'm trying to get in touch with the local model A club here in OSH area, maybesomeone has some more definitive experience that could help.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2014 15:54:56 -0700

Original Posted By: "taildrags"
Steve I too have a set, look forward to help. Like should I use the larger ones for the front?Sent from my iPad> On Jun 18, 2014, at 3:44 PM, Steven Dortch wrote:> > I have a set of piper cub shortened struts. I have stripped and inspected them and will prime and paint them. There have been problems with corrosion inside and the FAA approved way to treat the insides is with Linseed oil.> What is the experience/advice of the group? I like CorrosionX. I have used it in my Bonanza with good effect. Or one site advises WD40 first and then a waxy rust preventative like MAX WAX. Or perhaps CorrsionX Heavy duty. Or LPS3. > > Blue Skies,> Steve D> > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: model A engine

Original Posted By: "bender"
SSBjb3BpZWQgdGhlIDQxMzAgc3RyZWFtbGluZWQgd2luZyBzdHJ1dCBtYXRlcmlhbCBzaXplcyB0aGF0IEZyYW5rIFNyLiAmIEZyYW5rIEpyLiBQYXZsaWdhIHVzZWQgb24gdGhlaXIgUGlldGVucG9sLiAgICBUaGV5IHVzZWQgZmxvb2RzdG9jaw0KZnJvbSB0aGUgUGlwZXIgRmFjdG9yeSBpbiBMb2NraGF2ZW4gYWZ0ZXIgdGhlIGZhY3RvcnkgZ290IGZsb29kZWQuDQoNCk1pa2UgQy4NCk9oaW8NCg0KDQpbY2lkOmltYWdlMDAxLmpwZ0AwMUNGOEI5QS5DMUJGMkRGMF0NCg0K________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: model A engine

Original Posted By: "AircamperN11MS"
Rich Built My engine too.. and I still feel like he does great work.I just got an email back from him and he says .003 and that's where mine were.So do I have a clearance problem ? I took the bad piston to a friend yesterdayand just said "what do you think" he says it looks like it got tight.and the discussion went to A-65's and back to "open it up" and that a looser fitwouldn't hurt anything here are pics... labeled 1-2-3 #1 is nearest the propjeffRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/pist ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: model A engine

Original Posted By: "AircamperN11MS"
Hey,After looking at these pics. I am wondering if the rod bearing were put in therods backwards? Was the bearing with the oil hole installed on the rod end,or in the cap end. The bearing with the oil hole should be installed in the rodside to provide oil to the piston pin and help cool the piston. It seems likea no brainer but I have seen stuff like this happen more than once. Worth checking,--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: model A engine

Original Posted By: "tools"
Hi, I'm really excited about this trailer wheel idea. I'm currently building a Pietenpol(wooden landing gear) and I've seen the wire moto wheels/tire and they lookgreat but - as a young self-employed person the cost is too much for me. Thetrailer wheels seem like a great idea!By the way - You said the trailer wheels might not look the best - actually I thinkwith a little work they could actually look pretty cool!What type of brakes did you use? Do you have any recommendations on axle and hubs?This is my first plane so I hope you don't mind - but I'm learning to be rathershameless in begging for knowledge from more experienced builders - so any info/ideasyou might have would be much appreciated. Thanks...Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: model A engine

Original Posted By: "Pietflyer1977"
Curious... two rubbed at the widest point, the other was just the opposite...Baffled. Did you ever find out if they are cast or forged pistons? That couldexplain the need for more clearance.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: model A engine

Original Posted By: "bender"
For those builders who do not yet have struts for their project I know of a verynice set that are available in Ontario, Canada. They were purpose built fora plans built Pietenpol with .035 streamlined 4130 and all four have proper aircraftfork ends. They were epoxy primed and are painted black. The aircraftowner has opted for J3 style sealed struts instead so these (according to theAME who is building the Piet) are surplus to the owner's requirements. I know the AME and can put anyone interested in touch with him for more details.Contact me off list if interested. Happy flying this weekend!Scott KnowltonBuilder in Burlington OntarioSent from my iPhone________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: model A engine

Original Posted By: "BYD"
I'm not sure.. the new ones I just got in are Sealed Power. and they only measureabout .002 clearance. SP only list the min clearance as .001 and no max listed.and I'm not giving up yet but I have an A-65 in the waiting for me.JeffRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: model A engine

Original Posted By: "bender"
SteveJust use anti chafe on any wood with an edge or a protrusion that'll wear thrufabric. Too much is better than too little, especially if using lightweight fabricNever understood why you'd go the trouble of grommets when burning holes is soeasy and neatDouweSent from my iPhone________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: model A engine

Original Posted By: danhelsper(at)aol.com
So my plan is to Hone out the cylinders.. .005 doesn't seem too big to most ofthe folks I've talked to, then run it a lot on the ground. I did just buy an A65and did some calculations. It look like the engine mount for the 65 would workout with W&B at about 16 inches long and I would save a ton of weight. Myengine with water and oil ready to fly is 265 lbs . My plane weighs in at 662lbs empty including oil and water and with a continental would be around 612 ifI figured right. Man I love the A it just looks and sounds right. I'm not givingup yet but hope that if the 65 is sitting in the corner the A will work thistime..Jeff FaithLou KYRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: model A engine

Original Posted By: bender
Man Jeff, 662 lbs. is very light for an A-powered Piet. Mine is 717. Rambo's is 717. Get the A-65 and put it in the corner.....make sure it is facing the action so it can see everything....run the hell out of the A on the ground and then go fly. See what happens. Stay over the runway for awhile. After all, you are an experienced glider pilot :O)Dan HelsperPuryear (pronounced with three full syllables.....PER'-EE-ER) TN.-----Original Message-----