Brodhead Pietenpol Association

Original Posted By: "tools"
Awesome! Congratulations.BTW, I flew an old clipped wing Cub at Sky Manor Airport years ago. A friend onmine was also having a Stomp rebuilt there. .... the memories.--------Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal.

Original Posted By: "tools"
Hey MikeAre you really sure on the empty weight? Did you drain all the fuel out of the nose tank? I recall the weight empty at 685lbs. Im just wondering.Dick----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: "Dick N"
I figure that 125 # is fuel. He says its empty ready to fly at 810.----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: Jim Boyer

Original Posted By: "Jack Phillips"
Hey Dick,Yep, sure about the weight. However, I did NOT drain anything. That 810 is withthe radio, gps, seat cushions, a couple candy bars, full bag of fuel, oil,EVERYTHING but occupants, so I figure your 685 is probably right. Tools, who had a beautiful day but had to help a bud, and couldn't go flying, wasa little depressed...Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

Original Posted By:ke, Virginia =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0Aowner-piet
=0A=0A=0A =0A =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AI put gap seals (duct tape) on mine a=0Acouple of years ago.=C2- They fell off (well, one did so I removed the other)=0Aon the way to Brodhead this summer.=C2- There was a noticeable effect, but=0Anot much.=C2- What I noticed is that with the elevator gaps sealed, I could=0Alift the tail sooner on takeoff.=C2- It also affected my trim somewhat.=C2-=0AI have a spring-type trim system, and with the gaps sealed, I ran out of nose=0Aup trim and still needed to hold a slight bit of back pressure when I had a=0Aload in the baggage compartment (I have a nose baggage compartment on my=0APietenpol, since my fuel tank is in the centersection).=C2- When the seals=0Awere removed, my trim spring was strong enough to give me all the back pressure=0AI needed, even with a load up front. =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0AIn regards to the recent discussion about=0Athe function of tails, the horizontal tail provides downforce to hold the=0Atypical nose heavy airplane level. in the case of most Pietenpols (and every=0Aone that I have flown), if you look at the horizontal tail in flight, you will=0Asee a slight bit of down elevator, indicating that the tail is actually=0Aproviding a bit of lift.=C2- This is likely a function of the Pietenpol=99s=0Aairfoil, and of the fact that many Pietenpols (mine included) are flown with=0Athe CG near the aft edge of the envelope.=C2- Adding gap seals apparently=0Aincreases that tail lift force, requiring more back pressure (or less forward=0Apressure) to hold the plane in level flight. =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0AHere are a couple of pictures showing=0APietenpols in level flight, showing the slight down elevator: =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0A=C2- =0A=0AHere is my Pietenpol in flight.=C2- You=0Acan see a slight down elevator (not much, since I have my wife and a full load=0Aof baggage). =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0AAnd here is Mike Cuy=99s, on the way=0Ato Brodhead, back in 2005: =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0A =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0AHere is Greg Cardinal=99s =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0A =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0AAnd here is another one (don=99t know=0Awho owns this one): =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0A =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0AAll show a similar amount of down elevator. =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0ASo in answer to which side the tape should=0Ago on, I put mine on the bottom, not for aerodynamic reasons, but because a=0Astrip of grey duct tape is ugly. =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0ATo each his own =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0AJack Phillips =0A=0ANX899JP =0A=0ASmith Mountain La

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
I put gap seals (duct tape) on mine a couple of years ago. They fell off(well, one did so I removed the other) on the way to Brodhead this summer.There was a noticeable effect, but not much. What I noticed is that withthe elevator gaps sealed, I could lift the tail sooner on takeoff. It alsoaffected my trim somewhat. I have a spring-type trim system, and with thegaps sealed, I ran out of nose up trim and still needed to hold a slight bitof back pressure when I had a load in the baggage compartment (I have a nosebaggage compartment on my Pietenpol, since my fuel tank is in thecentersection). When the seals were removed, my trim spring was strongenough to give me all the back pressure I needed, even with a load up front.In regards to the recent discussion about the function of tails, thehorizontal tail provides downforce to hold the typical nose heavy airplanelevel. in the case of most Pietenpols (and every one that I have flown), ifyou look at the horizontal tail in flight, you will see a slight bit of downelevator, indicating that the tail is actually providing a bit of lift.This is likely a function of the Pietenpol's airfoil, and of the fact thatmany Pietenpols (mine included) are flown with the CG near the aft edge ofthe envelope. Adding gap seals apparently increases that tail lift force,requiring more back pressure (or less forward pressure) to hold the plane inlevel flight.Here are a couple of pictures showing Pietenpols in level flight, showingthe slight down elevator:Here is my Pietenpol in flight. You can see a slight down elevator (notmuch, since I have my wife and a full load of baggage).And here is Mike Cuy's, on the way to Brodhead, back in 2005:Here is Greg Cardinal'sAnd here is another one (don't know who owns this one):All show a similar amount of down elevator.So in answer to which side the tape should go on, I put mine on the bottom,not for aerodynamic reasons, but because a strip of grey duct tape is ugly.To each his own.Jack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____

Original Posted By: Michael Perez

Original Posted By: "Bryan Reed"
Well, while it's flat, it's still a "wing". The differential shape comes whenthe elevators are deflected, or even when aligned (or "flat") the lift comes fromit's own little angle of attack.Airplanes are nose heavy. If the tail wasn't there, the nose would drop. Thefact it "holds" the nose up (even in level flight) means that there is lower pressureon the bottom, higher on the top, to create that force.Stick your hand out the window of your car while driving. Angle it this way andthat, you'll feel the force on the top or bottom respectively. The horiz stab/elevators only produce lift the other way when nose down pitch inexcess of what gravity can provide, is needed. In the flare, you are at your slowest, but still need to keep the nose from dropping(or even need to bring it up at the last second to establish the correcttouch down attitude), so more deflection is needed to provide more lift to compensatefor the slower airspeed. It will either stall or simply run out of enoughdeflection to do that. Hopefully you've touched down by then. The rudder acts the same way, but provides lift on one side nearly the same asit does the other, so taping one side over the other is pointless. Still doesn't mean I'm right about the tape on the elevator...!ToolsRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal.

Original Posted By: helspersew(at)aol.com
Michael, Even a symmetrical wing will generate lift. It is the angle of attack that willcause the airflow over the top of the wing to travel farther and thus createa lower pressure area. By designing a wing with additional distance naturallyit creates more lift but will also produce more induced drag. Many sailplanesand most aerobatic planes have symmetrical wings. Most high performance aircraftwill also have nearly symmetrical wings to limit induced drag. The sweptwing design also further reduces induced drag. A stable aircraft is nose heavy thus in level flight the elevator must causethe lift to occur from the top of the horizontal stab, pushing down and thereforlifting the heavier nose of the plane. To accomplish this we will apply upelevator. The longer air travel and thus low pressure zone is at the bottom ofthe horizontal stabilizer and elevator. It is this necessary induced tail dragof stable aircraft that led to the V-tail Bonanza design. Having flown theV-tail I can tell you that is has an uncomfortable loosey goosey feel from thetail with that design. Pilot discomfort with that feeling during flight is whatled them to return to the normal tail configuration. See ya, Bryan--------Working Piet N5289BWhile I may not always be right, I apologize well.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal.

Original Posted By: Michael Perez
I haven't seen too many (none that I can recall) elevator gap seals at Brodhead. Is this really necessary? Just wondering.Dan HelsperPuryear, TN-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: "C N Campbell"
Sorry Tool,-Is that really what people call you? : ) I see you beat me to it with a more eloquent explanation. Cheers, Bryan--------Working Piet N5289BWhile I may not always be right, I apologize well.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

Original Posted By: helspersew(at)aol.com
How about using full-length piano hinge on the elevators. That would give a gap seal at the top -- don't have a suggestion for the bottom. C ----- Original Message -----

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
I have certainly heard that ailerons would improve with gap seals (orcontinuous hinges), but I don't recall anyone saying that they wished theyhad more elevator.Gary from Cool

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
I put gap seals (duct tape) on mine a couple of years ago. They fell off(well, one did so I removed the other) on the way to Brodhead this summer.There was a noticeable effect, but not much. What I noticed is that withthe elevator gaps sealed, I could lift the tail sooner on takeoff. It alsoaffected my trim somewhat. I have a spring-type trim system, and with thegaps sealed, I ran out of nose up trim and still needed to hold a slight bitof back pressure when I had a load in the baggage compartment (I have a nosebaggage compartment on my Pietenpol, since my fuel tank is in thecentersection). When the seals were removed, my trim spring was strongenough to give me all the back pressure I needed, even with a load up front.In regards to the recent discussion about the function of tails, thehorizontal tail provides downforce to hold the typical nose heavy airplanelevel. in the case of most Pietenpols (and every one that I have flown), ifyou look at the horizontal tail in flight, you will see a slight bit of downelevator, indicating that the tail is actually providing a bit of lift.This is likely a function of the Pietenpol's airfoil, and of the fact thatmany Pietenpols (mine included) are flown with the CG near the aft edge ofthe envelope. Adding gap seals apparently increases that tail lift force,requiring more back pressure (or less forward pressure) to hold the plane inlevel flight.Here are a couple of pictures showing Pietenpols in level flight, showingthe slight down elevator:Here is my Pietenpol in flight. You can see a slight down elevator (notmuch, since I have my wife and a full load of baggage).And here is Mike Cuy's, on the way to Brodhead, back in 2005:Here is Greg Cardinal'sAnd here is another one (don't know who owns this one):All show a similar amount of down elevator.So in answer to which side the tape should go on, I put mine on the bottom,not for aerodynamic reasons, but because a strip of grey duct tape is ugly.To each his own.Jack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____

Original Posted By: "tools"
Hey Bryan,Yep, people call me Tools. It was my callsign during the glory days (Navy pilot).You can call me that, Mike, many call me Dan (presumably because my lastname is Danford, though my dad never got that, he's Gary...) and there's somewe won't mention here! I've always had nicknames as there was always a numberof Mikes in the class.Sealing the gap will help if you need more elevator authority, as it makes it moreefficient and helps generate more lift, just like the ailerons. I was just wondering if folks found not enough (or a feeling like they wish theyhad more) elevator authority after making a CG shift like I'm going to. I reallydon't think it is going to be a problem, but also thought asking couldn'thurt.Dan, I didn't see many sealed elevator gaps either, though I did a few, this onebeing one of them (it's been to Brodhead a number of years). Dick may havesealed the gap in his other Piet as well. I'm going to seal the gap, was just looking to see if my thinking on where tapeshould be (if you're using tape), was correct and I believe it is.You only need to seal one side, as the purpose is to prevent air from going throughthe gap, it isn't a parasitic drag thing. ToolsRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: CG shift common sense check. Elevator/stab gap seal.

Original Posted By: "tools"
Oh, by the way, and just for fun. I weighed the plane "empty" (not FAA empty weight,just without a pilot or pax) and did a balance computation.It came in at like 14". Someone told me the range for this plane is 12 to 20".If that's so, it looks like it would be safe to fly from the front only. I'mnot going to do that, but just wouldn't have guessed that to be the case.Someone else mentioned 15 to 20, and that was in agreement of the standard percentagerange nearly all airplanes seem to conform with. So I'm not really convincedabout the "safeness" of flying solo from the front.I am going to learn to fly from the front, but only so I can teach my son. I havea friend around here who's a taildragger CFI I'll get to ride in the backwhile I give it a go. Should be fun! ToolsRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: What Really Happened to Air France 447

Original Posted By: "Jack Phillips"
Wow, very interesting and near and dear to my heart. First, I flew a B767-300ERout of Rio within days both before and after that disaster.Second, I just got qualified (since the finding of the black boxes) in a A330 andnever heard ANY of this.First, you almost NEVER really hand fly a A330. Even with the auto pilot off,you are in less than "fly by wire". The flight control automation STILL won'tgive you direct control of the flight surfaces. Even in some forms of alternatelaw, the plane shouldn't stall.We definitely don't practice hand flying. Period. We do some of this and thatthrough initial training, but not during recurrent training. And we certainlydon't do ANYTHING that would prepare you for this sort of ordeal.There is no problem with "who is in control" as alluded to because there were twofirst officers. The A330 is CRAZY complex. I do believe this would be VERY much less likely witha Boeing, because of synchronous controls and such. Not that the 330 is abad plane, it's not. It's UNBELIEVABLY impressive. While there is a stall warning,there is no "warning" that the plane is in other than normal law. Well,nothing like a GPWS warning, stall warning or something like that. It's ratherdifficult to tell what phase the flight controls are in, oddly enough. Itisn't considered a big deal because practically NO CARRIER has had a plane operatein other than normal law.A result of extreme reliability I suppose.I have to say, I was a bit worried about going to fly the 330 because my hand flyingskills would deteriorate. However, I bought my Piet the same time I startedtraining and I definitely feel better because of it. There is a lot to belearned from this mishap for ALL pilots.I think the article (if accurate, and nothing really stands out to the contrary,though some of their conclusions aren't quite right, nothing that would leadanyone astray though) is very useful for even us low and slow guys. I had a student once lose his airspeed indicator. I was leading 3 other solo studentsin a 4 plane formation flight. Dash two, told me after takeoff his airspeedindicator wasn't working. It was clear and a million (as it has to befor a flight like that with students). He sounded good, made the right call tolet me know, even though I don't need to, it isn't a big deal. It was aboutthen as i was acknowledging him I noticed he was a little more shaken about itthan I wold have thought, as his gear was still down! The point is, you might be amazed at how even small distractions affect you morethan you might realize. In most phases of life, things aren't so critical thatit would manifest itself at all, but definitely less so with flying.ToolsRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Do you have brakes in the front?Not sure why you would want to fly from the front, unless for instruction.Visibility is better from the rear.Jack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia-----Original Message-----

Original Posted By: Michael Perez

Original Posted By: "Jack Phillips"
Nope, no brakes in the front, and I only want to fly there for instruction. Justamazed that balance wise it would be safe.Mine has the same down elevator in level flight. However, even with down elevator,there's still higher pressure on the top, there has to be. All stable airplanesare nose heavy. CG range merely determines the safe range of nose heavy.If there's down elevator at normal cruising speed, that means the horiz stab isout of rig. You want the elevator lined up with the stab for normal cruise speedfor less drag. At our speeds and such, it really isn't a big deal...I agree, the tape on the bottom is just nicer looking. Dick had yellow tape thatmatches the paint, so that helps! I'm just having a hard time keeping it on.ToolsRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Michael,Didn't you ever fly a balsa glider as a kid? Those have sheet balsa wingswith no airfoil and they work just fine, at the correct angle of attack. Ordidn't you ever ride in a car with the window down and "fly" your hand inthe slipstream? You could generate either positive or negative lift, justby changing the angle of attack.Airfoils just work more efficiently than flat plates. By the way, unlessanswering questions on an FAA exam, NEVER try to explain lift as a result of"the Bernoulli Effect". If the Bernoulli Effect was responsible forcreating lift, no Pitts Special (except the early models with the M-6airfoil), or Decathlon or Extra 300 could fly at all, since they havesymmetrical airfoils. Airfoils (including flat plates) work by deflectingthe air downward, pure and simple.Jack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____