Original Posted By: "David B. Schober"
I started a Sport Trainer a few years ago. I have not done as much as Iwish I could have. I have found it hard to really get started because ofall the welding and parts making. The plans are definitely not designed forthe first time builder. There is not a building manual to follow and theplans are basically copies of the original plans. Some day I will get backto the J-3. But right now, I'm building an easy airplane plan. ThePietenpol.Craig________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Cub ideas
Pietenpol-List: Cub ideas
Original Posted By: Craig & Shari Hanson
Anyone out there building a Sport Trainer or the Super Sport Trainer? I am interested in anyfeedback. Thanks. Ed LarsenI'm not building yet but here's what I'm thinking. A PA 14 is theequivalent of a stretched piper tripacer with super cub wings. It has STOLperformance in like with a super cub and a 135 mph cruse. It holds 4 peopleand 50 gal of fuel. You can buy a TriPacer in need of fabric and an engine for about $4000.You can sell the wings for about what it would cost you buy the materials tobuild super cub wings. Covering would cost about $4000. Add a 180hp O-360for about 13,000 or rebuild your own for lessFor about $25,000 you'd have one heck of an airplane for half the cost of asuper cub and an experimental rating so you could do your own repairs.Marc Davis Anyone out there building a Sport Trainer or the Super Sport Trainer? I am interested in anyfeedback. Thanks. Ed Larsen________________________________________________________________________________
Anyone out there building a Sport Trainer or the Super Sport Trainer? I am interested in anyfeedback. Thanks. Ed LarsenI'm not building yet but here's what I'm thinking. A PA 14 is theequivalent of a stretched piper tripacer with super cub wings. It has STOLperformance in like with a super cub and a 135 mph cruse. It holds 4 peopleand 50 gal of fuel. You can buy a TriPacer in need of fabric and an engine for about $4000.You can sell the wings for about what it would cost you buy the materials tobuild super cub wings. Covering would cost about $4000. Add a 180hp O-360for about 13,000 or rebuild your own for lessFor about $25,000 you'd have one heck of an airplane for half the cost of asuper cub and an experimental rating so you could do your own repairs.Marc Davis Anyone out there building a Sport Trainer or the Super Sport Trainer? I am interested in anyfeedback. Thanks. Ed Larsen________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Cub ideas
Original Posted By: Wkoucky(at)aol.com
If at all possible try to get some flights in a J-3, Aeronca Champ, anda Pietenpol before you decide what you think you might want to buy/build. After flying our Champ for several years I found that althoughthe J-3 gets the attention and notoriety, it lacks alot compared to the Champ.Even an honest closet Cub owner will admit to this. For what it's worth ,Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
If at all possible try to get some flights in a J-3, Aeronca Champ, anda Pietenpol before you decide what you think you might want to buy/build. After flying our Champ for several years I found that althoughthe J-3 gets the attention and notoriety, it lacks alot compared to the Champ.Even an honest closet Cub owner will admit to this. For what it's worth ,Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Cub ideas
Original Posted By: Michael D Cuy
Why not keep the airplane as a standard category. Install the STC's fortailwheel, increased power, Borer prop . . ., I've used stock Tripacers andPacers for banner tow and glider tow and the short wing will give youexceptional performance. A Pacer with a 150hp and an M76DM52 prop will giveperformance equivelant to a Super Cub. As for maintenance, there is nothing youcan't do on a certified airplane. All you need is an A&P to supervise. Theannual has to be done by an IA but all the panel removal and replacement couldbe done by you.Davis, Marc wrote:> Anyone out there building a Sport> Trainer or the Super Sport Trainer? I am interested in any> feedback.> Thanks.> Ed Larsen>> I'm not building yet but here's what I'm thinking. A PA 14 is the> equivalent of a stretched piper tripacer with super cub wings. It has STOL> performance in like with a super cub and a 135 mph cruse. It holds 4 people> and 50 gal of fuel.>> You can buy a TriPacer in need of fabric and an engine for about $4000.> You can sell the wings for about what it would cost you buy the materials to> build super cub wings. Covering would cost about $4000. Add a 180hp O-360> for about 13,000 or rebuild your own for less>> For about $25,000 you'd have one heck of an airplane for half the cost of a> super cub and an experimental rating so you could do your own repairs.>> Marc Davis>>> Anyone out there building a Sport> Trainer or the Super Sport Trainer? I am interested in any> feedback.> Thanks.> Ed Larsen--David B.Schober, CPEInstructor, Aviation MaintenanceFairmont State CollegeNational Aerospace Education CenterRt. 3 Box 13Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503(304) 842-8300________________________________________________________________________________
Why not keep the airplane as a standard category. Install the STC's fortailwheel, increased power, Borer prop . . ., I've used stock Tripacers andPacers for banner tow and glider tow and the short wing will give youexceptional performance. A Pacer with a 150hp and an M76DM52 prop will giveperformance equivelant to a Super Cub. As for maintenance, there is nothing youcan't do on a certified airplane. All you need is an A&P to supervise. Theannual has to be done by an IA but all the panel removal and replacement couldbe done by you.Davis, Marc wrote:> Anyone out there building a Sport> Trainer or the Super Sport Trainer? I am interested in any> feedback.> Thanks.> Ed Larsen>> I'm not building yet but here's what I'm thinking. A PA 14 is the> equivalent of a stretched piper tripacer with super cub wings. It has STOL> performance in like with a super cub and a 135 mph cruse. It holds 4 people> and 50 gal of fuel.>> You can buy a TriPacer in need of fabric and an engine for about $4000.> You can sell the wings for about what it would cost you buy the materials to> build super cub wings. Covering would cost about $4000. Add a 180hp O-360> for about 13,000 or rebuild your own for less>> For about $25,000 you'd have one heck of an airplane for half the cost of a> super cub and an experimental rating so you could do your own repairs.>> Marc Davis>>> Anyone out there building a Sport> Trainer or the Super Sport Trainer? I am interested in any> feedback.> Thanks.> Ed Larsen--David B.Schober, CPEInstructor, Aviation MaintenanceFairmont State CollegeNational Aerospace Education CenterRt. 3 Box 13Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503(304) 842-8300________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Cub ideas
Original Posted By: "Davis, Marc"
Quite right, to a point on the maintenance...the Friendlies say that"supervise" means just that: eyeballs on. However, there is quite a bit thatyou, as a pilot/owner, can legally do unsupervised on your own aircraft.Check out FAR 43 for the juicy details. By the way, if you do ANY work on ANYairplane, keep a log of what you do, and how much time you spend. It's justlike going to school. After so much experience, you may be eligible to takethe A&P (excuse me, the AMT) writtens. Check with your local FSDO MaintenanceRepresentative for the latest. If you're doing all that work, might as welltry for a bonus.________________________________________________________________________________
Quite right, to a point on the maintenance...the Friendlies say that"supervise" means just that: eyeballs on. However, there is quite a bit thatyou, as a pilot/owner, can legally do unsupervised on your own aircraft.Check out FAR 43 for the juicy details. By the way, if you do ANY work on ANYairplane, keep a log of what you do, and how much time you spend. It's justlike going to school. After so much experience, you may be eligible to takethe A&P (excuse me, the AMT) writtens. Check with your local FSDO MaintenanceRepresentative for the latest. If you're doing all that work, might as welltry for a bonus.________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: RE: Cub ideas
Original Posted By: David B. Schober [SMTP:dbs(at)fscvax.wvnet.edu]
Pietenpol-List: Re: Cub ideas
Original Posted By:> David B. Schober [SMTP:dbs(at)fscvax.wvnet.edu]
Marc,I had a PA22-160. The extra 10 hp doesn't sound like much but it did help. Myprop was repitched to 50". Climb performance at gross was close to 1000' permin. Light it was in the 1800' range. I operated this airplane out of strips asshort as 700' at gross weight. Problem was that cruise suffered. In climb if youlet the airspeed go over 80 you had to start coming back on the throttle or youwould over rev. I would cruise at 2700 rpm and about 115 mph. With the 60" propit would cruise at 2500 rpm and 130 mph.I used this airplane for banner towing and could pull more than a 150hp PA12. Iinstalled a second oil cooler, four tow hitches, and the repitched prop and theairframe was metalized. Otherwise it was a stock 160 Tripacer. Average sign was40 five foot Gasser letters. I've pulled as many as 63 letters but performancewas marginal. This was all at sea level but during the summer months along theNew Jersey shore so temps were in the 80's and 90's.One other note, a Tripacer will takeoff shorter than a Pacer. If short fieldperformance is what you are looking for, stay with a milk stool. Since the gearon a Pacer is shorter and farther forward, you cant rotate to as high an angleof attack and your ground roll will be longer.Davis, Marc wrote:
Marc,I had a PA22-160. The extra 10 hp doesn't sound like much but it did help. Myprop was repitched to 50". Climb performance at gross was close to 1000' permin. Light it was in the 1800' range. I operated this airplane out of strips asshort as 700' at gross weight. Problem was that cruise suffered. In climb if youlet the airspeed go over 80 you had to start coming back on the throttle or youwould over rev. I would cruise at 2700 rpm and about 115 mph. With the 60" propit would cruise at 2500 rpm and 130 mph.I used this airplane for banner towing and could pull more than a 150hp PA12. Iinstalled a second oil cooler, four tow hitches, and the repitched prop and theairframe was metalized. Otherwise it was a stock 160 Tripacer. Average sign was40 five foot Gasser letters. I've pulled as many as 63 letters but performancewas marginal. This was all at sea level but during the summer months along theNew Jersey shore so temps were in the 80's and 90's.One other note, a Tripacer will takeoff shorter than a Pacer. If short fieldperformance is what you are looking for, stay with a milk stool. Since the gearon a Pacer is shorter and farther forward, you cant rotate to as high an angleof attack and your ground roll will be longer.Davis, Marc wrote:
Pietenpol-List: RE: Cub ideas
Original Posted By: David B. Schober [SMTP:dbs(at)fscvax.wvnet.edu]
Pietenpol-List: Re: Cub ideas
Original Posted By: "Larsen, Ed"
Nice to see all the interaction about Cubs. I am amazed to see thata J 3 in good condition is priced at 20K +. I agree, the Champ as somefeatures tat are better.. For example there is is egress into the front flightdeck.. For the Cub, I always suggest getting up on te right tire, Sit on thedoor frame, reach up and grab the cabane struts behind the windscreen, Pullyourself up, lift up the left limb and slide over.. then bring the right limbup.. Works oik.. Except for someone with a skirt.. I like the Champ when it istrimmed for a landing. I always thought pitch control was more sensitive. TheChamp is more comfortable for XC . After about an hour in the J3 lower seatcushion frame begins to make impressions on your extrimities.. But, if you canland a J3, you can land anything. I have not had the pleasure of flying aSuper Cub..________________________________________________________________________________
Nice to see all the interaction about Cubs. I am amazed to see thata J 3 in good condition is priced at 20K +. I agree, the Champ as somefeatures tat are better.. For example there is is egress into the front flightdeck.. For the Cub, I always suggest getting up on te right tire, Sit on thedoor frame, reach up and grab the cabane struts behind the windscreen, Pullyourself up, lift up the left limb and slide over.. then bring the right limbup.. Works oik.. Except for someone with a skirt.. I like the Champ when it istrimmed for a landing. I always thought pitch control was more sensitive. TheChamp is more comfortable for XC . After about an hour in the J3 lower seatcushion frame begins to make impressions on your extrimities.. But, if you canland a J3, you can land anything. I have not had the pleasure of flying aSuper Cub..________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: RE: Cub ideas
Original Posted By: LanhamOS(at)aol.com [SMTP:LanhamOS(at)aol.com]
There is a gentleman in the Provo, Utah area that has a 194? J-3 Cub forsale. It has only a few years on the fabric. He is asking US$30,000.00, and claims that he will get it. He says that its valueincreases US $11.00 per day. He explained that many of the people whooriginally learned to fly in a Cub, are retiring. Nostalgia is forcingthem to get one, and they are willing to pay. So landing a Cub is achallenge? Please elaborate. I'm considering building a J-3 replica,and I'm not even a pilot yet. The J-3 seems to have some kind ofhypnotic power over me, but I have never flown in one. I certainlydon't want to build one an find out that I made a mistake afterward.Any comments?Ed Larsen
There is a gentleman in the Provo, Utah area that has a 194? J-3 Cub forsale. It has only a few years on the fabric. He is asking US$30,000.00, and claims that he will get it. He says that its valueincreases US $11.00 per day. He explained that many of the people whooriginally learned to fly in a Cub, are retiring. Nostalgia is forcingthem to get one, and they are willing to pay. So landing a Cub is achallenge? Please elaborate. I'm considering building a J-3 replica,and I'm not even a pilot yet. The J-3 seems to have some kind ofhypnotic power over me, but I have never flown in one. I certainlydon't want to build one an find out that I made a mistake afterward.Any comments?Ed Larsen
Pietenpol-List: Re: Cub ideas
Original Posted By: "Warren D. Shoun"
Larsen, Ed wrote:> > There is a gentleman in the Provo, Utah area that has a 194? J-3 Cub for> sale. It has only a few years on the fabric. He is asking US> $30,000.00, and claims that he will get it. He says that its value> increases US $11.00 per day. Yeah, he'll get it if the thing is at all nice... Seems like even the ragged ones are bringing over $20.Richard________________________________________________________________________________
Larsen, Ed wrote:> > There is a gentleman in the Provo, Utah area that has a 194? J-3 Cub for> sale. It has only a few years on the fabric. He is asking US> $30,000.00, and claims that he will get it. He says that its value> increases US $11.00 per day. Yeah, he'll get it if the thing is at all nice... Seems like even the ragged ones are bringing over $20.Richard________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: RE: Cub ideas
Original Posted By: steve(at)byu.edu
Ed Larson wrote:>>So landing a Cub is a>challenge? Please elaborate. Ed- Mr. Lanham's observation here illustrates the difference between theCub's bungee suspension and the Champ's oleo strut suspension. The bungee's, especially when newly installed on a Cub, aretight and less forgiving than the Champ's cushion type feel on landing.Neither aircraft should be feared in any way though. Both are sweet. I have learned that the bungee's we use on straight axle Piets go thrua 'break-in' period of sorts. I had to re-wrap mine three times during myfirst 40 hours as they stretched out. Now they are fine- haven't had toadjust them at all. Wrapped too loose and the wind/uneven groundhandling will rock your wings back and forth way too much, and tootight you can't get a smooth landing. For the motorcycle wheel guysI started out with 30 lbs. of tire pressure which proved too much.Now using about 25 lbs. which seems good. The wise owner ofCleve. Motorcycle Supply told me though that too low a tire pressuremay allow the tire to slip upon touchdown on the rim, shearing offthe valve stem, resulting in an instant flat. This is more likely on paved strips than grass. Happy Friday !!!!!Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Ed Larson wrote:>>So landing a Cub is a>challenge? Please elaborate. Ed- Mr. Lanham's observation here illustrates the difference between theCub's bungee suspension and the Champ's oleo strut suspension. The bungee's, especially when newly installed on a Cub, aretight and less forgiving than the Champ's cushion type feel on landing.Neither aircraft should be feared in any way though. Both are sweet. I have learned that the bungee's we use on straight axle Piets go thrua 'break-in' period of sorts. I had to re-wrap mine three times during myfirst 40 hours as they stretched out. Now they are fine- haven't had toadjust them at all. Wrapped too loose and the wind/uneven groundhandling will rock your wings back and forth way too much, and tootight you can't get a smooth landing. For the motorcycle wheel guysI started out with 30 lbs. of tire pressure which proved too much.Now using about 25 lbs. which seems good. The wise owner ofCleve. Motorcycle Supply told me though that too low a tire pressuremay allow the tire to slip upon touchdown on the rim, shearing offthe valve stem, resulting in an instant flat. This is more likely on paved strips than grass. Happy Friday !!!!!Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: RE: Cub ideas
Original Posted By: "Warren D. Shoun"
I had to rewrap several times as well on my split gear too. It is justperfect now.Among several things that get adjusted several times as you work into thehours on a new plane.Stevee-----Original Message-----Michael D CuySent: Friday, September 25, 1998 5:46 AMSubject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Cub ideasEd Larson wrote:>>So landing a Cub is a>challenge? Please elaborate.Ed- Mr. Lanham's observation here illustrates the difference between theCub's bungee suspension and the Champ's oleo strut suspension. The bungee's, especially when newly installed on a Cub, aretight and less forgiving than the Champ's cushion type feel on landing.Neither aircraft should be feared in any way though. Both are sweet. I have learned that the bungee's we use on straight axle Piets go thrua 'break-in' period of sorts. I had to re-wrap mine three times during myfirst 40 hours as they stretched out. Now they are fine- haven't had toadjust them at all. Wrapped too loose and the wind/uneven groundhandling will rock your wings back and forth way too much, and tootight you can't get a smooth landing. For the motorcycle wheel guysI started out with 30 lbs. of tire pressure which proved too much.Now using about 25 lbs. which seems good. The wise owner ofCleve. Motorcycle Supply told me though that too low a tire pressuremay allow the tire to slip upon touchdown on the rim, shearing offthe valve stem, resulting in an instant flat. This is more likely onpaved strips than grass. Happy Friday !!!!!Mike C.________________________________________________________________________________
I had to rewrap several times as well on my split gear too. It is justperfect now.Among several things that get adjusted several times as you work into thehours on a new plane.Stevee-----Original Message-----Michael D CuySent: Friday, September 25, 1998 5:46 AMSubject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Cub ideasEd Larson wrote:>>So landing a Cub is a>challenge? Please elaborate.Ed- Mr. Lanham's observation here illustrates the difference between theCub's bungee suspension and the Champ's oleo strut suspension. The bungee's, especially when newly installed on a Cub, aretight and less forgiving than the Champ's cushion type feel on landing.Neither aircraft should be feared in any way though. Both are sweet. I have learned that the bungee's we use on straight axle Piets go thrua 'break-in' period of sorts. I had to re-wrap mine three times during myfirst 40 hours as they stretched out. Now they are fine- haven't had toadjust them at all. Wrapped too loose and the wind/uneven groundhandling will rock your wings back and forth way too much, and tootight you can't get a smooth landing. For the motorcycle wheel guysI started out with 30 lbs. of tire pressure which proved too much.Now using about 25 lbs. which seems good. The wise owner ofCleve. Motorcycle Supply told me though that too low a tire pressuremay allow the tire to slip upon touchdown on the rim, shearing offthe valve stem, resulting in an instant flat. This is more likely onpaved strips than grass. Happy Friday !!!!!Mike C.________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Cub ideas
Original Posted By: steve(at)byu.edu
Steve & Mike: Flew a Piper Vagabond for years with a stiff gear...as in no bungie atall...seemed to land just fine. Question? How do you think a stiff gear on the Piet would work?Warren________________________________________________________________________________
Steve & Mike: Flew a Piper Vagabond for years with a stiff gear...as in no bungie atall...seemed to land just fine. Question? How do you think a stiff gear on the Piet would work?Warren________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Cub ideas
Original Posted By: "Larsen, Ed"
Doable with tires that will absorb landing loads ala Fly-Baby. Wire wheelswould seem to require a very gentle touch on landing, since they don'tabsorb as much as fat tires. I have landed several times-grateful for atleast some shock absorbsion. (sheepish grin)Stevee-----Original Message-----Warren D. ShounSent: Friday, September 25, 1998 9:24 AMSubject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cub ideasSteve & Mike: Flew a Piper Vagabond for years with a stiff gear...as in no bungie atall...seemed to land just fine. Question? How do you think a stiff gear on the Piet would work?Warren________________________________________________________________________________
Doable with tires that will absorb landing loads ala Fly-Baby. Wire wheelswould seem to require a very gentle touch on landing, since they don'tabsorb as much as fat tires. I have landed several times-grateful for atleast some shock absorbsion. (sheepish grin)Stevee-----Original Message-----Warren D. ShounSent: Friday, September 25, 1998 9:24 AMSubject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cub ideasSteve & Mike: Flew a Piper Vagabond for years with a stiff gear...as in no bungie atall...seemed to land just fine. Question? How do you think a stiff gear on the Piet would work?Warren________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: RE: Cub ideas
Original Posted By: Warren D. Shoun [SMTP:wbnb(at)earthlink.net]
Warren, WAG AERO offers plans for a Piper Vagabond replica called the Wagabond.They claim that it is a good first-time building project with extensiveplans and instructions and helps, as opposed to the Sport Trainer plansthat require previous building experience. At least, that is what Ihave gathered. Since you flew a Vagabond for years, would you be willing to explainwhat you liked and disliked about the airplane as well as flightcharacteristics, span, length, power plant required, etc. If you had anopportunity to build a Vagabond replica, would you do it? Pleaseelaborate. Thank you.Ed Larsen
Warren, WAG AERO offers plans for a Piper Vagabond replica called the Wagabond.They claim that it is a good first-time building project with extensiveplans and instructions and helps, as opposed to the Sport Trainer plansthat require previous building experience. At least, that is what Ihave gathered. Since you flew a Vagabond for years, would you be willing to explainwhat you liked and disliked about the airplane as well as flightcharacteristics, span, length, power plant required, etc. If you had anopportunity to build a Vagabond replica, would you do it? Pleaseelaborate. Thank you.Ed Larsen
Pietenpol-List: Re: Cub ideas
Original Posted By: "Warren D. Shoun"
Steve, Thanks for the experience relay. It ALL helps.Best Regards,Warren________________________________________________________________________________
Steve, Thanks for the experience relay. It ALL helps.Best Regards,Warren________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Cub ideas
Original Posted By: "Larsen, Ed"
Hi Ed, The Vagabond was the most fun plane that I have ever had or flown. Ican only hope that the Piet is as much fun! The short wings on the Vagabond were never any problem, due to the lightweight of just over 600#. Span is 29' and Length is 18'..sound familiar?On only 65 horsepower, would get in and out of the shortest unimproved stripeasily with 2 aboard. I often used it as an "Air Camper". Easily flewhands off with just pedal input. Stalls were a non-event. In fact youcould pull the power, gently pull the stick clear back to the stop and justmush down at about 300 feet / minute. Side slips to a landing were justplain fun and I would often come in high on purpose just so I could practicethem. Speed wasn't much...again similar to the Piet...85-90 on a good day.Landed at a walk and very short. Bought the Wag-Aero plans. Extra-ordinarily extensive. In fact, I amusing them as a reference for the Piet on how to do some things. I woulddefinitely build one, if I hadn't decided that I wanted the "rain-water inmy ear" kind of flying....and I may anyway. This one has doors on bothsides, more power and better fuel load, and cruises @ 124 mph or better.Seems like an ideal Subaru project to me. Hope this helps.Best Regards,Warren________________________________________________________________________________
Hi Ed, The Vagabond was the most fun plane that I have ever had or flown. Ican only hope that the Piet is as much fun! The short wings on the Vagabond were never any problem, due to the lightweight of just over 600#. Span is 29' and Length is 18'..sound familiar?On only 65 horsepower, would get in and out of the shortest unimproved stripeasily with 2 aboard. I often used it as an "Air Camper". Easily flewhands off with just pedal input. Stalls were a non-event. In fact youcould pull the power, gently pull the stick clear back to the stop and justmush down at about 300 feet / minute. Side slips to a landing were justplain fun and I would often come in high on purpose just so I could practicethem. Speed wasn't much...again similar to the Piet...85-90 on a good day.Landed at a walk and very short. Bought the Wag-Aero plans. Extra-ordinarily extensive. In fact, I amusing them as a reference for the Piet on how to do some things. I woulddefinitely build one, if I hadn't decided that I wanted the "rain-water inmy ear" kind of flying....and I may anyway. This one has doors on bothsides, more power and better fuel load, and cruises @ 124 mph or better.Seems like an ideal Subaru project to me. Hope this helps.Best Regards,Warren________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: RE: Cub ideas
Original Posted By: Warren D. Shoun [SMTP:wbnb(at)earthlink.net]
Warren, This is just the kind of information I was looking for. Thank you verymuch! I believe that I will buy the plans from WAG AERO. At only US$66, it seems that they are a great resource and good bargain.Best regards,Ed
Warren, This is just the kind of information I was looking for. Thank you verymuch! I believe that I will buy the plans from WAG AERO. At only US$66, it seems that they are a great resource and good bargain.Best regards,Ed
Pietenpol-List: RE: Cub ideas
Original Posted By: Graham Hansen [SMTP:grhans@cable-lynx.net]
Graham, This type of feedback is priceless. Thank you for your experience andyour recommendations. I am just getting into this, and I have soooooomuch to learn. It is nice to be able to borrow from the experience ofothers who are "in-the-know". Thank you!Best regards,Ed Larsen
Graham, This type of feedback is priceless. Thank you for your experience andyour recommendations. I am just getting into this, and I have soooooomuch to learn. It is nice to be able to borrow from the experience ofothers who are "in-the-know". Thank you!Best regards,Ed Larsen
Pietenpol-List: Re: Cub ideas
Original Posted By: "Larsen, Ed"
To Ed Larson:I am flying a Pietenpol AND a "Wag-A-Bond" Piper PA 17replica, both built by me in 1970 and 1993 respectively. Irebuilt a PA17 Vagabond from a "basket case" in 1965and flew it for three years before selling it. (Should havekept that one).Warren's evaluation of the Vagabond is pretty accurate,and I agree with him that the Vag is a thoroughly nice lit-tle airplane with docile behavior in the air. On paved run-ways they are a bit squirrelly, but no worse than my Piet.under the same conditions. Both are short-coupled withvery responsive controls. This can lead to overcontrollinguntil one "gets them trained". Grass runways tame thesetendencies enormously, making ground operations easy.My first Vagabond taught me the importance of not tryingto raise the tail too high, too soon, on takeoff in a cross-wind condition. If this is done, the little Vag will take the bitin her teeth and swing into the wind, heading for the edgeof the runway in spite of opposite rudder input. This pheno-menon lasts only a few seconds before the rudder takeshold, but is guaranteed to increase adrenalin flow drama-tically. I was not certain what caused this, but reasoned thatthe upwind wing, being not far from the tailfeathers in sucha short-coupled design, was blocking clean airflow over thefin and rudder when the tail was raised too high at low air-speed. The slab-sided aft fuselage would produce weather-cocking, according to my theory. The solution? Leave theelevators at neutral during takeoff and let the tail lift itselfwhen sufficient speed is gained. I tried this technique andit worked! In a brisk crosswind, I sometimes use a little upelevator at the beginning of the takeoff run to maintain posi-tive tailwheel steering, but never use any down elevator ina crosswind takeoff. I have re-tested this procedure on myWag-A-Bond and it behaves in exactly the same way as myold Vagabond did. The airplane is easy to land.Both the Vagabond and Wag-A-Bond had/have the Continen-tal A65 for power and performed well at this elevation of 2400feet above sea level. At a maximum gross weight of 1150 lb.the climb performance above 6000 ft. msl was considerablydegraded; my Taylorcraft BC12D with the same power wasstill climbing well under the same conditions, proving that alonger wingspan with low power is essential for good perform-ance at altitude. I am considering installing a Continental C85in the Wag, but for the type of flying I am doing it is not at allnecessary---and that is why it hasn't been done by now.I used the Wag Aero plans for reference and the basic fuselageof a PA 15 in much need of repair for the Wag-A-Bond project.I built new wings using the metal spars and drag truss from aPA16 Clipper. The wing ribs were built up from .020 " 2024 T3formed angles. Lots of other parts such as wing struts, dual con-trols and landing gear were built, easily satisfying the 51% re-quirementfor the amateur-built category. Altogether, the airplaneis pretty much a PA 17 except for the 6.00-6 Cleveland wheelsand hydraulic disc brakes obtained from Wag Aero. I didn't usea left door in order to save some weight (as in the originals).If you can find the remains of a short-winged Piper to use as the nucleus ofyour project, by all means do so; this will save you from having toscratch-build everything---and may save some moneytoo. The Wag Aero plans are excellent, and I recommend them.If you want a simple, nice-flying, cute little sport plane, the Vag isthe one. If you go with the "classic" version (as I did), keep it sim-ple and light the way it was meant to be and you will not be disap-pointed.The Pietenpol is great for summer flying and the Vagabond isgreat the year around. Although I have put them both on skis forwinter fun --and both are good skiplanes--the Vag gets the nodmost winter days because it is more comfortable for these oldbones.Good luck in your project!Graham________________________________________________________________________________
To Ed Larson:I am flying a Pietenpol AND a "Wag-A-Bond" Piper PA 17replica, both built by me in 1970 and 1993 respectively. Irebuilt a PA17 Vagabond from a "basket case" in 1965and flew it for three years before selling it. (Should havekept that one).Warren's evaluation of the Vagabond is pretty accurate,and I agree with him that the Vag is a thoroughly nice lit-tle airplane with docile behavior in the air. On paved run-ways they are a bit squirrelly, but no worse than my Piet.under the same conditions. Both are short-coupled withvery responsive controls. This can lead to overcontrollinguntil one "gets them trained". Grass runways tame thesetendencies enormously, making ground operations easy.My first Vagabond taught me the importance of not tryingto raise the tail too high, too soon, on takeoff in a cross-wind condition. If this is done, the little Vag will take the bitin her teeth and swing into the wind, heading for the edgeof the runway in spite of opposite rudder input. This pheno-menon lasts only a few seconds before the rudder takeshold, but is guaranteed to increase adrenalin flow drama-tically. I was not certain what caused this, but reasoned thatthe upwind wing, being not far from the tailfeathers in sucha short-coupled design, was blocking clean airflow over thefin and rudder when the tail was raised too high at low air-speed. The slab-sided aft fuselage would produce weather-cocking, according to my theory. The solution? Leave theelevators at neutral during takeoff and let the tail lift itselfwhen sufficient speed is gained. I tried this technique andit worked! In a brisk crosswind, I sometimes use a little upelevator at the beginning of the takeoff run to maintain posi-tive tailwheel steering, but never use any down elevator ina crosswind takeoff. I have re-tested this procedure on myWag-A-Bond and it behaves in exactly the same way as myold Vagabond did. The airplane is easy to land.Both the Vagabond and Wag-A-Bond had/have the Continen-tal A65 for power and performed well at this elevation of 2400feet above sea level. At a maximum gross weight of 1150 lb.the climb performance above 6000 ft. msl was considerablydegraded; my Taylorcraft BC12D with the same power wasstill climbing well under the same conditions, proving that alonger wingspan with low power is essential for good perform-ance at altitude. I am considering installing a Continental C85in the Wag, but for the type of flying I am doing it is not at allnecessary---and that is why it hasn't been done by now.I used the Wag Aero plans for reference and the basic fuselageof a PA 15 in much need of repair for the Wag-A-Bond project.I built new wings using the metal spars and drag truss from aPA16 Clipper. The wing ribs were built up from .020 " 2024 T3formed angles. Lots of other parts such as wing struts, dual con-trols and landing gear were built, easily satisfying the 51% re-quirementfor the amateur-built category. Altogether, the airplaneis pretty much a PA 17 except for the 6.00-6 Cleveland wheelsand hydraulic disc brakes obtained from Wag Aero. I didn't usea left door in order to save some weight (as in the originals).If you can find the remains of a short-winged Piper to use as the nucleus ofyour project, by all means do so; this will save you from having toscratch-build everything---and may save some moneytoo. The Wag Aero plans are excellent, and I recommend them.If you want a simple, nice-flying, cute little sport plane, the Vag isthe one. If you go with the "classic" version (as I did), keep it sim-ple and light the way it was meant to be and you will not be disap-pointed.The Pietenpol is great for summer flying and the Vagabond isgreat the year around. Although I have put them both on skis forwinter fun --and both are good skiplanes--the Vag gets the nodmost winter days because it is more comfortable for these oldbones.Good luck in your project!Graham________________________________________________________________________________