Original Posted By: Larry Pasley
In my copy of AC 43.13-1A/3, there's a table on page 22 titled "Selectionand properties of aircraft wood" that has good information about therelative strengths, workability, and glueability of various woods. Thistable uses Sitka spruce as the baseline and compares the other woods to it.I am building a Wag-a-Bond, Wag Aero's replica of the Piper PA15/17. Thisairplane has a wood wing and I am just in the rib-building stage now, doingit per the plans. Have been thinking of using Doug Fir for the spars -- 61/4 inch wide forward spar and (I think) 4 3/4 inch wide rear spar. Fir is10 percent heavier than Sitka spruce.I too would be interested in any more information about the relativestrengths, workability and glueability of other woods.If anyone wants this table I can scan it and email it as an attached file.It would be a good idea for anyone who is building an airplane to have acopy of AC 43.13-1A/3 in their builder's library, in my opinion. $16.95 fromEAA.Regards,Mike________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Wood for wings
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wood for wings
Original Posted By: Dave & Cheryl Wirey
Mike,For your project, why don't you use extruded aluminum spar blanks. It might becheaper than wood.Michael Hinchman wrote:> In my copy of AC 43.13-1A/3, there's a table on page 22 titled "Selection> and properties of aircraft wood" that has good information about the> relative strengths, workability, and glueability of various woods. This> table uses Sitka spruce as the baseline and compares the other woods to it.>> I am building a Wag-a-Bond, Wag Aero's replica of the Piper PA15/17. This> airplane has a wood wing and I am just in the rib-building stage now, doing> it per the plans. Have been thinking of using Doug Fir for the spars -- 6> 1/4 inch wide forward spar and (I think) 4 3/4 inch wide rear spar. Fir is> 10 percent heavier than Sitka spruce.>> I too would be interested in any more information about the relative> strengths, workability and glueability of other woods.>> If anyone wants this table I can scan it and email it as an attached file.> It would be a good idea for anyone who is building an airplane to have a> copy of AC 43.13-1A/3 in their builder's library, in my opinion. $16.95 from> EAA.>> Regards,>> Mike--David B.Schober, CPEInstructor, Aviation MaintenanceFairmont State CollegeNational Aerospace Education CenterRt. 3 Box 13Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503(304) 842-8300________________________________________________________________________________
Mike,For your project, why don't you use extruded aluminum spar blanks. It might becheaper than wood.Michael Hinchman wrote:> In my copy of AC 43.13-1A/3, there's a table on page 22 titled "Selection> and properties of aircraft wood" that has good information about the> relative strengths, workability, and glueability of various woods. This> table uses Sitka spruce as the baseline and compares the other woods to it.>> I am building a Wag-a-Bond, Wag Aero's replica of the Piper PA15/17. This> airplane has a wood wing and I am just in the rib-building stage now, doing> it per the plans. Have been thinking of using Doug Fir for the spars -- 6> 1/4 inch wide forward spar and (I think) 4 3/4 inch wide rear spar. Fir is> 10 percent heavier than Sitka spruce.>> I too would be interested in any more information about the relative> strengths, workability and glueability of other woods.>> If anyone wants this table I can scan it and email it as an attached file.> It would be a good idea for anyone who is building an airplane to have a> copy of AC 43.13-1A/3 in their builder's library, in my opinion. $16.95 from> EAA.>> Regards,>> Mike--David B.Schober, CPEInstructor, Aviation MaintenanceFairmont State CollegeNational Aerospace Education CenterRt. 3 Box 13Bridgeport, WV 26330-9503(304) 842-8300________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wood for wings
Original Posted By: "Larsen, Ed"
Michael:I'd be interested in seeing a copy of the table you refer to. Thanks.Mark Boynton, Phoenix, AZ --On Tue, 20 Oct 1998 07:41:33 Michael Hinchman wrote:>In my copy of AC 43.13-1A/3, there's a table on page 22 titled "Selection>and properties of aircraft wood" that has good information about the>relative strengths, workability, and glueability of various woods. This>table uses Sitka spruce as the baseline and compares the other woods to it.>>I am building a Wag-a-Bond, Wag Aero's replica of the Piper PA15/17. This>airplane has a wood wing and I am just in the rib-building stage now, doing>it per the plans. Have been thinking of using Doug Fir for the spars -- 6>1/4 inch wide forward spar and (I think) 4 3/4 inch wide rear spar. Fir is>10 percent heavier than Sitka spruce.>>I too would be interested in any more information about the relative>strengths, workability and glueability of other woods.>>If anyone wants this table I can scan it and email it as an attached file.>It would be a good idea for anyone who is building an airplane to have a>copy of AC 43.13-1A/3 in their builder's library, in my opinion. $16.95 from>EAA.>>Regards,>>Mike>>http://www.mailexcite.com________________________________________________________________________________
Michael:I'd be interested in seeing a copy of the table you refer to. Thanks.Mark Boynton, Phoenix, AZ --On Tue, 20 Oct 1998 07:41:33 Michael Hinchman wrote:>In my copy of AC 43.13-1A/3, there's a table on page 22 titled "Selection>and properties of aircraft wood" that has good information about the>relative strengths, workability, and glueability of various woods. This>table uses Sitka spruce as the baseline and compares the other woods to it.>>I am building a Wag-a-Bond, Wag Aero's replica of the Piper PA15/17. This>airplane has a wood wing and I am just in the rib-building stage now, doing>it per the plans. Have been thinking of using Doug Fir for the spars -- 6>1/4 inch wide forward spar and (I think) 4 3/4 inch wide rear spar. Fir is>10 percent heavier than Sitka spruce.>>I too would be interested in any more information about the relative>strengths, workability and glueability of other woods.>>If anyone wants this table I can scan it and email it as an attached file.>It would be a good idea for anyone who is building an airplane to have a>copy of AC 43.13-1A/3 in their builder's library, in my opinion. $16.95 from>EAA.>>Regards,>>Mike>>http://www.mailexcite.com________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: RE: Wood for wings
Original Posted By: Mark Boynton [SMTP:mboynton(at)mailexcite.com]
Michael, As long as you are offering, I would like a copy this table also.Thanks.Ed Larsen - Mapleton, UT
Michael, As long as you are offering, I would like a copy this table also.Thanks.Ed Larsen - Mapleton, UT
Pietenpol-List: RE: Wood for wings
Original Posted By: Gary Gower
Folks,I'll scan that table from AC 43.13 tomorrow at work (don't have a scannerhere at home) and email it to those who asked for it tomorrow evening. Itwill be in JPG format.Concerning aluminum spars, I have a neighbor that has a set of goodTri-Pacer aluminum spars that will work. I need to put a tape measure onthem to make double sure, but he will sell them to me. Wag Aero says theyshould work. Was just thinking of using Fir, but obviously the aluminumwould be probably lighter. I need to see if I can find out from Wag Aerowhat modifications need to be made to the ribs to fit the aluminum sparswith the I-beam cross section. I am a first-time builder, so don't have thiskind of information in my experience base yet. Anyone know the answer tothis, please speak up!Mike________________________________________________________________________________
Folks,I'll scan that table from AC 43.13 tomorrow at work (don't have a scannerhere at home) and email it to those who asked for it tomorrow evening. Itwill be in JPG format.Concerning aluminum spars, I have a neighbor that has a set of goodTri-Pacer aluminum spars that will work. I need to put a tape measure onthem to make double sure, but he will sell them to me. Wag Aero says theyshould work. Was just thinking of using Fir, but obviously the aluminumwould be probably lighter. I need to see if I can find out from Wag Aerowhat modifications need to be made to the ribs to fit the aluminum sparswith the I-beam cross section. I am a first-time builder, so don't have thiskind of information in my experience base yet. Anyone know the answer tothis, please speak up!Mike________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wood for wings
Original Posted By: Graham Hansen
--when I started out to build my airplane, My intention was to use a/c spruce...untili was slapped in the face by the cost.this turned my attention to fir. then to hemlock, as after tests, it seemed tobe stronger than fir, cut better, and is faa acceptable from my reading.I did follow all the selection rules from the books.Around here...Spokane, WA hemlock is as easy to find as any other lumber, somy selection of choice pieces came from very large lots of premium wood.As for glueing, hemlock does not glue as well as spruce, and seems to need a rough,and very clean surface.I have seen some of my test joints break on the glue line, and not pull wood. (t-88)A good clean surface,that is rough makes a very strong glue joint, that does pullwood. hemlock and spruce take this test very well, the fir much less well.Fir splits lengthwise with the grain, and it chips and cracks very easily. hemlock,and spruce seem to break after much more bending, and the break is much morecentralized.Fir however seems to be the acceptable and most used substitute for spruce though.And as far as I know ,I am the only one who has anything critical to say aboutit...ocbOn Tue, 20 Oct 1998 07:41:33 Michael Hinchman wrote:>In my copy of AC 43.13-1A/3, there's a table on page 22 titled "Selection>and properties of aircraft wood" that has good information about the>relative strengths, workability, and glueability of various woods. This>table uses Sitka spruce as the baseline and compares the other woods to it.>>I am building a Wag-a-Bond, Wag Aero's replica of the Piper PA15/17. This>airplane has a wood wing and I am just in the rib-building stage now, doing>it per the plans. Have been thinking of using Doug Fir for the spars -- 6>1/4 inch wide forward spar and (I think) 4 3/4 inch wide rear spar. Fir is>10 percent heavier than Sitka spruce.>>I too would be interested in any more information about the relative>strengths, workability and glueability of other woods.>>If anyone wants this table I can scan it and email it as an attached file.>It would be a good idea for anyone who is building an airplane to have a>copy of AC 43.13-1A/3 in their builder's library, in my opinion. $16.95 from>EAA.>>Regards,>>Mike>>http://www.mailexcite.com________________________________________________________________________________
--when I started out to build my airplane, My intention was to use a/c spruce...untili was slapped in the face by the cost.this turned my attention to fir. then to hemlock, as after tests, it seemed tobe stronger than fir, cut better, and is faa acceptable from my reading.I did follow all the selection rules from the books.Around here...Spokane, WA hemlock is as easy to find as any other lumber, somy selection of choice pieces came from very large lots of premium wood.As for glueing, hemlock does not glue as well as spruce, and seems to need a rough,and very clean surface.I have seen some of my test joints break on the glue line, and not pull wood. (t-88)A good clean surface,that is rough makes a very strong glue joint, that does pullwood. hemlock and spruce take this test very well, the fir much less well.Fir splits lengthwise with the grain, and it chips and cracks very easily. hemlock,and spruce seem to break after much more bending, and the break is much morecentralized.Fir however seems to be the acceptable and most used substitute for spruce though.And as far as I know ,I am the only one who has anything critical to say aboutit...ocbOn Tue, 20 Oct 1998 07:41:33 Michael Hinchman wrote:>In my copy of AC 43.13-1A/3, there's a table on page 22 titled "Selection>and properties of aircraft wood" that has good information about the>relative strengths, workability, and glueability of various woods. This>table uses Sitka spruce as the baseline and compares the other woods to it.>>I am building a Wag-a-Bond, Wag Aero's replica of the Piper PA15/17. This>airplane has a wood wing and I am just in the rib-building stage now, doing>it per the plans. Have been thinking of using Doug Fir for the spars -- 6>1/4 inch wide forward spar and (I think) 4 3/4 inch wide rear spar. Fir is>10 percent heavier than Sitka spruce.>>I too would be interested in any more information about the relative>strengths, workability and glueability of other woods.>>If anyone wants this table I can scan it and email it as an attached file.>It would be a good idea for anyone who is building an airplane to have a>copy of AC 43.13-1A/3 in their builder's library, in my opinion. $16.95 from>EAA.>>Regards,>>Mike>>http://www.mailexcite.com________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wood for wings
Original Posted By: steve(at)byu.edu
Hello Mike,Those aluminum spars from a PA-22 Tri-Pacer should work just fine for wingson a Wag-A-Bond (I assume this is what you are building).I used the aluminum spars, tie rods, compression struts and fittings from aPiper PA-16 Clipper on my Wag-A-Bond with good results. In order to satisfythe 51% rule, I built new aluminum ribs and all other wing parts from rawmaterial.The PA-16 spars have the strut attachment point a bit farther out onthe spar than the PA-15/17 Vagabonds did, making it impossibleto utilize PA-15/17 struts. However, PA-16/20/22 rear struts workfine with the appropriate spars. The front struts from PA-16/20/22airplanes are too heavy for the Wag-A-Bond Classic (as mine is)using an A65 Continental, but might be OK if you build the morepowerful, heavier and faster Wag-A-Bond Traveller. I built new frontstruts for mine using the tubing size called for in the plans, and I usednew Piper J3 strut forks on all four struts. Originally, PA-15/17 airplanesused three eighths inch forks which were pretty delicate. Most, if not all,have been replaced with the stouter J3 forks by now.Try to obtain the rest of the hardware mentioned above along withthe spars; this will save a lot of work and make wing building mucheasier. If those spars are in good condition, by all means use them.Metal ribs would be easier to attach to the metal spars than woodenribs, so consider the possibility of building them from aluminum.Cheers,Graham Hansen________________________________________________________________________________
Hello Mike,Those aluminum spars from a PA-22 Tri-Pacer should work just fine for wingson a Wag-A-Bond (I assume this is what you are building).I used the aluminum spars, tie rods, compression struts and fittings from aPiper PA-16 Clipper on my Wag-A-Bond with good results. In order to satisfythe 51% rule, I built new aluminum ribs and all other wing parts from rawmaterial.The PA-16 spars have the strut attachment point a bit farther out onthe spar than the PA-15/17 Vagabonds did, making it impossibleto utilize PA-15/17 struts. However, PA-16/20/22 rear struts workfine with the appropriate spars. The front struts from PA-16/20/22airplanes are too heavy for the Wag-A-Bond Classic (as mine is)using an A65 Continental, but might be OK if you build the morepowerful, heavier and faster Wag-A-Bond Traveller. I built new frontstruts for mine using the tubing size called for in the plans, and I usednew Piper J3 strut forks on all four struts. Originally, PA-15/17 airplanesused three eighths inch forks which were pretty delicate. Most, if not all,have been replaced with the stouter J3 forks by now.Try to obtain the rest of the hardware mentioned above along withthe spars; this will save a lot of work and make wing building mucheasier. If those spars are in good condition, by all means use them.Metal ribs would be easier to attach to the metal spars than woodenribs, so consider the possibility of building them from aluminum.Cheers,Graham Hansen________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: RE: Wood for wings
Original Posted By: Graham Hansen [SMTP:grhans@cable-lynx.net]
Graham, Would you be willing to share more information on how to build aluminumribs? I.e. raw materials and sources, plans, costs, time to build,assembly instructions, etc. Is there a good book out there that takesone through the process of building aluminum ribs and assemblingaluminum wings? I am trying to decide which way to go, aluminum orwood. I understand that the aluminum "capstrip" material is a"T-section", while the rib "bracing?" has an angle cross section, andthey are riveted together. The part I do not understand is how you bendthe rib curvature into a piece of "T-section" without cutting away someof the vertical section or having it buckle. I am not sure if I haveexplained myself well or not. Can you help me understand how this isaccomplished? A&E Aircraft sells wing components, sells wing kits,fuselage kits, spars, ribs, aluminum stock, etc.www.globaldialog.com/~aeaircraft I understand that there is another outfit out there called South DakodaCub, that sells supplies for aluminum wings. I have searched for themon the net, but cannot find them. Does anyone out there know how to geta hold of them? Are there other sources that may have better pricing or that may bebetter to work with? I would appreciate any information anyone couldspare. I would also like more information about how to get in touch withthe Cub Club. I have searched for them on the net, but have beenunsuccessful. Thank you.Best regards,Ed Larsen - Mapleton, UT
Graham, Would you be willing to share more information on how to build aluminumribs? I.e. raw materials and sources, plans, costs, time to build,assembly instructions, etc. Is there a good book out there that takesone through the process of building aluminum ribs and assemblingaluminum wings? I am trying to decide which way to go, aluminum orwood. I understand that the aluminum "capstrip" material is a"T-section", while the rib "bracing?" has an angle cross section, andthey are riveted together. The part I do not understand is how you bendthe rib curvature into a piece of "T-section" without cutting away someof the vertical section or having it buckle. I am not sure if I haveexplained myself well or not. Can you help me understand how this isaccomplished? A&E Aircraft sells wing components, sells wing kits,fuselage kits, spars, ribs, aluminum stock, etc.www.globaldialog.com/~aeaircraft I understand that there is another outfit out there called South DakodaCub, that sells supplies for aluminum wings. I have searched for themon the net, but cannot find them. Does anyone out there know how to geta hold of them? Are there other sources that may have better pricing or that may bebetter to work with? I would appreciate any information anyone couldspare. I would also like more information about how to get in touch withthe Cub Club. I have searched for them on the net, but have beenunsuccessful. Thank you.Best regards,Ed Larsen - Mapleton, UT
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wood for wings
Original Posted By: William Conway
For all of you great people on the net, sharing so much information. I usethis net as an illstration of cooperation in my Introdction to Sociologycourse where we have a unit on Groups and Interaction. I am always interestedin engine mods. A friend has built an Acro Sport, and a GP-4. The latter is ofall wood construction. I visited him many times when he was putting ittogether. It lasted over 5+ years.The GP-4 is a remarkable kite, 240 kts on200 hp. Today I wanted to say thanks for the flying stories. I place myself in theplane with each of you. I remember a time some 50 years ago now, flying in aJ2 Cub from Springfield, Ill to Pekin, Ill. We encountered a flight of duck atabot or altitude(600 ft. agl). As we passed them the lead duck turned its head and checked usot sort of saying "Scat, you are in our airspace." I believe fall is the besttime to fly, the cool air certainly provides a lot of extra lift. We comparedour flight to one in June, when we really had to wait as our roc was onlyabout 100fpm, it we could reach that! I have followed the discussion about warmth in the flight decks.. Ireceived one of the come ons from Magazine people, guaranteeing money.. andattaching severalthings to order.. I see they have a set of thermal socks and gloves.. 4payments ofonly $2.49 each. Anyone use these? I know of the heated socks. Thanks. Dr. Orville Lanham________________________________________________________________________________
For all of you great people on the net, sharing so much information. I usethis net as an illstration of cooperation in my Introdction to Sociologycourse where we have a unit on Groups and Interaction. I am always interestedin engine mods. A friend has built an Acro Sport, and a GP-4. The latter is ofall wood construction. I visited him many times when he was putting ittogether. It lasted over 5+ years.The GP-4 is a remarkable kite, 240 kts on200 hp. Today I wanted to say thanks for the flying stories. I place myself in theplane with each of you. I remember a time some 50 years ago now, flying in aJ2 Cub from Springfield, Ill to Pekin, Ill. We encountered a flight of duck atabot or altitude(600 ft. agl). As we passed them the lead duck turned its head and checked usot sort of saying "Scat, you are in our airspace." I believe fall is the besttime to fly, the cool air certainly provides a lot of extra lift. We comparedour flight to one in June, when we really had to wait as our roc was onlyabout 100fpm, it we could reach that! I have followed the discussion about warmth in the flight decks.. Ireceived one of the come ons from Magazine people, guaranteeing money.. andattaching severalthings to order.. I see they have a set of thermal socks and gloves.. 4payments ofonly $2.49 each. Anyone use these? I know of the heated socks. Thanks. Dr. Orville Lanham________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wood for wings
Original Posted By: Larry Pasley
I too would like a copy of the table. Thanks, Larry> Folks,> > I'll scan that table from AC 43.13 tomorrow at work (don't have a scanner> here at home) and email it to those who asked for it tomorrow evening. It> will be in JPG format.> > Concerning aluminum spars, I have a neighbor that has a set of good> Tri-Pacer aluminum spars that will work. I need to put a tape measure on> them to make double sure, but he will sell them to me. Wag Aero says they> should work. Was just thinking of using Fir, but obviously the aluminum> would be probably lighter. I need to see if I can find out from Wag Aero> what modifications need to be made to the ribs to fit the aluminum spars> with the I-beam cross section. I am a first-time builder, so don't havethis> kind of information in my experience base yet. Anyone know the answer to> this, please speak up!> > Mike> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
I too would like a copy of the table. Thanks, Larry> Folks,> > I'll scan that table from AC 43.13 tomorrow at work (don't have a scanner> here at home) and email it to those who asked for it tomorrow evening. It> will be in JPG format.> > Concerning aluminum spars, I have a neighbor that has a set of good> Tri-Pacer aluminum spars that will work. I need to put a tape measure on> them to make double sure, but he will sell them to me. Wag Aero says they> should work. Was just thinking of using Fir, but obviously the aluminum> would be probably lighter. I need to see if I can find out from Wag Aero> what modifications need to be made to the ribs to fit the aluminum spars> with the I-beam cross section. I am a first-time builder, so don't havethis> kind of information in my experience base yet. Anyone know the answer to> this, please speak up!> > Mike> > > ________________________________________________________________________________