Original Posted By: Richard DeCosta
Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Wing Spars>To bring this question one step further: The 3 piece wing plan shows 3/4>inch spruce spar, with 1/8 spacers only under the fittings. Is this an>acceptable method to use for the whole wing? Would save considerably onthe>price of the spars.>>Al SwansonThat's the way Ed Snyder & I did it. My Piet has been flying 12 yrs & Eds'14 years.Point of information, the rib jig should be modified to accommodate thespars or use the jig as is & place spacers at the rib uprights.Mike ( Piet N687MB ).________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: RE: Wing Spars
Pietenpol-List: RE: Wing Spars
Original Posted By: Alan Swanson
To all:Bernard Pietenpol, in material he wrote about the corvair conversion,suggested laminated wing spars (3/4" laminations with 1/8" side plates). Igot this information with my plans set. Has any one tried this method?Apart from the additional work involved, any opinions on strength, longevityof the finished product, practicality?Mark BoyntonPhoenix, AZ________________________________________________________________________________
To all:Bernard Pietenpol, in material he wrote about the corvair conversion,suggested laminated wing spars (3/4" laminations with 1/8" side plates). Igot this information with my plans set. Has any one tried this method?Apart from the additional work involved, any opinions on strength, longevityof the finished product, practicality?Mark BoyntonPhoenix, AZ________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: RE: Wing Spars
Original Posted By: Michael Brusilow
To bring this question one step further: The 3 piece wing plan shows 3/4inch spruce spar, with 1/8 spacers only under the fittings. Is this anacceptable method to use for the whole wing? Would save considerably on theprice of the spars.Al Swanson>To all:>>Bernard Pietenpol, in material he wrote about the corvair conversion,>suggested laminated wing spars (3/4" laminations with 1/8" side plates). I>got this information with my plans set. Has any one tried this method?>Apart from the additional work involved, any opinions on strength, longevity>of the finished product, practicality?>>Mark Boynton>Phoenix, AZ>>>_______________________________________________________>>________________________________________________________________________________
To bring this question one step further: The 3 piece wing plan shows 3/4inch spruce spar, with 1/8 spacers only under the fittings. Is this anacceptable method to use for the whole wing? Would save considerably on theprice of the spars.Al Swanson>To all:>>Bernard Pietenpol, in material he wrote about the corvair conversion,>suggested laminated wing spars (3/4" laminations with 1/8" side plates). I>got this information with my plans set. Has any one tried this method?>Apart from the additional work involved, any opinions on strength, longevity>of the finished product, practicality?>>Mark Boynton>Phoenix, AZ>>>_______________________________________________________>>________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Spars
Original Posted By: Michael King
This is soo true. I hadnt heard about doing this until I was on my12th or so rib, and I had to do a lot of trimming on some to get thespar to fit right.> Point of information, the rib jig should be modified to accommodatethe> spars or use the jig as is & place spacers at the rib uprights.> > Mike ( Piet N687MB ).> > ==http://www.wrld.com/w3builder__________ ... __________
This is soo true. I hadnt heard about doing this until I was on my12th or so rib, and I had to do a lot of trimming on some to get thespar to fit right.> Point of information, the rib jig should be modified to accommodatethe> spars or use the jig as is & place spacers at the rib uprights.> > Mike ( Piet N687MB ).> > ==http://www.wrld.com/w3builder__________ ... __________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Spars
Original Posted By: Alan Swanson
-----Original Message-----
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Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Spars
Original Posted By: steve(at)byu.edu
Richard:So, did you build up a laminated spar? If so, could you comment on theprocedure you used? I'm especially interested in how you went aboutclamping all of the pieces and any difficulties you may have encountered,adhesive you used, etc. Any of you other builders who used this option(laminated spar), would you comment too? Thanks.Mark BoyntonPhoenix, AZ> This is soo true. I hadnt heard about doing this until I was on my> 12th or so rib, and I had to do a lot of trimming on some to get the> spar to fit right.> > > Point of information, the rib jig should be modified to accommodate> the> > spars or use the jig as is & place spacers at the rib uprights.> > > > Mike ( Piet N687MB ).> > > > > > ==> http://www.wrld.com/w3builder> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Richard:So, did you build up a laminated spar? If so, could you comment on theprocedure you used? I'm especially interested in how you went aboutclamping all of the pieces and any difficulties you may have encountered,adhesive you used, etc. Any of you other builders who used this option(laminated spar), would you comment too? Thanks.Mark BoyntonPhoenix, AZ> This is soo true. I hadnt heard about doing this until I was on my> 12th or so rib, and I had to do a lot of trimming on some to get the> spar to fit right.> > > Point of information, the rib jig should be modified to accommodate> the> > spars or use the jig as is & place spacers at the rib uprights.> > > > Mike ( Piet N687MB ).> > > > > > ==> http://www.wrld.com/w3builder> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Spars
Original Posted By: steve(at)byu.edu
I'm using 3/4 X 4-3/4 Douglas Fir for my spars. I didn't modify the rib jig,so I'll have to use spacers at each rib, to center the spar in the opening.Chuck________________________________________________________________________________
I'm using 3/4 X 4-3/4 Douglas Fir for my spars. I didn't modify the rib jig,so I'll have to use spacers at each rib, to center the spar in the opening.Chuck________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Spars
Original Posted By: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
In a message dated 1/14/99 2:44:08 PM Central Standard Time,mboynton(at)excite.com writes:>I understand that T88 Epoxy will nick the blades of a planer, if ya try toplane something, like a spar, after using it.Chuck________________________________________________________________________________
In a message dated 1/14/99 2:44:08 PM Central Standard Time,mboynton(at)excite.com writes:>I understand that T88 Epoxy will nick the blades of a planer, if ya try toplane something, like a spar, after using it.Chuck________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Cockpit Size
Original Posted By: Ian Holland
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cockpit Size>Dry flying and making engine noises, I am wondering whether I will need>a restraint system. I am 6 feet at 205 pounds.That's my size & I have plenty of room. I would suggest that you raise thecabane struts some & think about a flop.Mike B ( Piet N687MB )>>________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cockpit Size>Dry flying and making engine noises, I am wondering whether I will need>a restraint system. I am 6 feet at 205 pounds.That's my size & I have plenty of room. I would suggest that you raise thecabane struts some & think about a flop.Mike B ( Piet N687MB )>>________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Spars
Original Posted By: Ian Holland
>Richard:>>So, did you build up a laminated spar? If so, could you comment on the>procedure you used? I'm especially interested in how you went about>clamping all of the pieces and any difficulties you may have encountered,>adhesive you used, etc. Any of you other builders who used this option>(laminated spar), would you comment too? Thanks.>>Mark Boynton>Phoenix, AZMark- I built up my wing spars using an 'I' beam type design. As I recall thecenter 'web' portion was 1/2" thick spruce then capped on top and bottom with u-channeled square spruce routed out with room for T-88. No routingis required to lighten the spar then- it's already done. Where you havefittings, etc.you just glue in plywood plates to build-up the area. To glue the web and topand bottom pieces I simply wrapped electrical tape tightly every few inchesalong the length of the spar. Worked fine. It was a pain routing theu-channelsas you had to go slowly and there were eight of them for the 3 pce. wing about13' long each. Ah, the smell of spruce in the morning.Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
>Richard:>>So, did you build up a laminated spar? If so, could you comment on the>procedure you used? I'm especially interested in how you went about>clamping all of the pieces and any difficulties you may have encountered,>adhesive you used, etc. Any of you other builders who used this option>(laminated spar), would you comment too? Thanks.>>Mark Boynton>Phoenix, AZMark- I built up my wing spars using an 'I' beam type design. As I recall thecenter 'web' portion was 1/2" thick spruce then capped on top and bottom with u-channeled square spruce routed out with room for T-88. No routingis required to lighten the spar then- it's already done. Where you havefittings, etc.you just glue in plywood plates to build-up the area. To glue the web and topand bottom pieces I simply wrapped electrical tape tightly every few inchesalong the length of the spar. Worked fine. It was a pain routing theu-channelsas you had to go slowly and there were eight of them for the 3 pce. wing about13' long each. Ah, the smell of spruce in the morning.Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Spars
Original Posted By: Michael D Cuy
Mike how deep of a cut did you make? and what size was the u channel?Ken H.----- Original Message -----________________________________________________________________________________
Mike how deep of a cut did you make? and what size was the u channel?Ken H.----- Original Message -----________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Spars
Original Posted By: Michael Brusilow
>Mike how deep of a cut did you make? and what size was the u channel?>>Ken H.Ken- The U-channel stock size I used was 1"x1" then routed with a 1/2"router bit 3/4" deep. This leaves 1/4 inches thickness for all sides.To allow room for glue I put one or two layers of masking tape on my ripfence and ran the channels thru one last time then flipped them l to r anddid that again. If you make the fit too tight when you go to clamp, thepressureof the glue could split your u-channel. For you guys with dado blades on a table saw I suppose this procedure would go much faster than using a router bit which must be done with repeated passes at increasing depths. To do it over again I'd use 1"x 3/4" stock and only go 1/2" deep with thegroove for the web. The 1x1 was too big height-wise. The mulit piece sparwill make things less expensive for you by requiring smaller stock yet willyeilda structurally sound assembly. PS- Frank Pavliga suggested I build my sparlike this and I took him up on it. He said he'd do it this way given a secondPiet project.Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
>Mike how deep of a cut did you make? and what size was the u channel?>>Ken H.Ken- The U-channel stock size I used was 1"x1" then routed with a 1/2"router bit 3/4" deep. This leaves 1/4 inches thickness for all sides.To allow room for glue I put one or two layers of masking tape on my ripfence and ran the channels thru one last time then flipped them l to r anddid that again. If you make the fit too tight when you go to clamp, thepressureof the glue could split your u-channel. For you guys with dado blades on a table saw I suppose this procedure would go much faster than using a router bit which must be done with repeated passes at increasing depths. To do it over again I'd use 1"x 3/4" stock and only go 1/2" deep with thegroove for the web. The 1x1 was too big height-wise. The mulit piece sparwill make things less expensive for you by requiring smaller stock yet willyeilda structurally sound assembly. PS- Frank Pavliga suggested I build my sparlike this and I took him up on it. He said he'd do it this way given a secondPiet project.Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Cockpit Size
Original Posted By: Greg Yotz
Dry flying and making engine noises, I am wondering whether I will needa restraint system. I am 6 feet at 205 pounds.________________________________________________________________________________
Dry flying and making engine noises, I am wondering whether I will needa restraint system. I am 6 feet at 205 pounds.________________________________________________________________________________
> Re: Cockpit Size
Original Posted By: Ron Gipson
I'm 6'2" and 150 lbs. What are the implications regarding getting in and outof the seat below the wing? Is a cut out or moveable wing area advisable?KevinDown here in Houston>>-----Original Message----->From: Ian Holland >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 6:36 AM>Subject: Re: Cockpit Size>>>>Dry flying and making engine noises, I am wondering whether I will need>>a restraint system. I am 6 feet at 205 pounds.>>That's my size & I have plenty of room. I would suggest that you raise the>cabane struts some & think about a flop.>>>Mike B ( Piet N687MB )>>>>________________________________________________________________________________
I'm 6'2" and 150 lbs. What are the implications regarding getting in and outof the seat below the wing? Is a cut out or moveable wing area advisable?KevinDown here in Houston>>-----Original Message----->From: Ian Holland >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 6:36 AM>Subject: Re: Cockpit Size>>>>Dry flying and making engine noises, I am wondering whether I will need>>a restraint system. I am 6 feet at 205 pounds.>>That's my size & I have plenty of room. I would suggest that you raise the>cabane struts some & think about a flop.>>>Mike B ( Piet N687MB )>>>>________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Cockpit Size
Original Posted By: Ian Holland
-----Original Message-----
-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Cockpit Size
Original Posted By: Kevin Southwick
I raised the cabanes by 3 1/2 inches, but did not do the flop. Thecentre section is built and I am reluctant to go muss with it. I supposeI could cut every thing off aft the back beam and fit a false spar andhinge. Any other suggestions?I can get in with some contorsions. The extended fuselage is tight, butcomfortable.________________________________________________________________________________
I raised the cabanes by 3 1/2 inches, but did not do the flop. Thecentre section is built and I am reluctant to go muss with it. I supposeI could cut every thing off aft the back beam and fit a false spar andhinge. Any other suggestions?I can get in with some contorsions. The extended fuselage is tight, butcomfortable.________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Wing Spars
Original Posted By: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Jeff,3/4" thick wing spars would work just fine, they were used on J-3 Cubsbeforegoing to metal spars, and the Piet and the Cub are similar in many ways.The 3/4" spar blanks should be a little less expensive than 1" spars andsince therouting of the 1" spars leaves a lot of shavings on the floor and takes awhile towork up, time and money are saved. A big plus.And as you change one thing, that change affects other things on down theline.Basicly you need to keep the distance between the spar center lines the same(when viewed from the ends of the spars) when using the 3/4" spars as inusing the 1" spars.So to keep the distance between spars the same as called out on the plans,you will have to "adjust" the rib fixture to make the ribs fit the 3/4"spars.Do you make up the 1/4" difference by adding a 1/4" filler brace to the ribsat the front of the spar to make them fit? Or do you add the 1/4" fillerbrace to the rear of the spars? Adding a 1/8" filler strip to the front andrear of where the 3/4" spars locate in the ribs seems to be a better choice.You will also have to redesign the wing attach fittings at the cabane strutsand the lift strut attach straps. No big deal, but either way, change thethe angle thatthe lift strut straps are fitted to the spars. Keep them inline with thelift struts.And this will mean a redesign of the 1/8" plywood backing plates where theliftstrut straps attach to the spars. No big deal either, just longer plates.And the spar end of the lift struts will need to be adjusted for the changetoo.Or as the old song went, "The leg bone connected to the knee bone, and theknee bone connected to the thigh bone, and the thigh bone connected..." Butthat is part of the adventure of building your own plane.So by going with 3/4" spars you could save some money over 1" spars but needto adjust a bunch of other things in the process.Best of wishes.Rodger ChildsPiet in progress________________________________________________________________________________
Jeff,3/4" thick wing spars would work just fine, they were used on J-3 Cubsbeforegoing to metal spars, and the Piet and the Cub are similar in many ways.The 3/4" spar blanks should be a little less expensive than 1" spars andsince therouting of the 1" spars leaves a lot of shavings on the floor and takes awhile towork up, time and money are saved. A big plus.And as you change one thing, that change affects other things on down theline.Basicly you need to keep the distance between the spar center lines the same(when viewed from the ends of the spars) when using the 3/4" spars as inusing the 1" spars.So to keep the distance between spars the same as called out on the plans,you will have to "adjust" the rib fixture to make the ribs fit the 3/4"spars.Do you make up the 1/4" difference by adding a 1/4" filler brace to the ribsat the front of the spar to make them fit? Or do you add the 1/4" fillerbrace to the rear of the spars? Adding a 1/8" filler strip to the front andrear of where the 3/4" spars locate in the ribs seems to be a better choice.You will also have to redesign the wing attach fittings at the cabane strutsand the lift strut attach straps. No big deal, but either way, change thethe angle thatthe lift strut straps are fitted to the spars. Keep them inline with thelift struts.And this will mean a redesign of the 1/8" plywood backing plates where theliftstrut straps attach to the spars. No big deal either, just longer plates.And the spar end of the lift struts will need to be adjusted for the changetoo.Or as the old song went, "The leg bone connected to the knee bone, and theknee bone connected to the thigh bone, and the thigh bone connected..." Butthat is part of the adventure of building your own plane.So by going with 3/4" spars you could save some money over 1" spars but needto adjust a bunch of other things in the process.Best of wishes.Rodger ChildsPiet in progress________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing Spars
Original Posted By: "Carl Loar"
How does white pine compare to spruce or fir as regards strength?As I recall fir is somewhat heavier but is correspondingly stronger. Ispine stronger/weaker?how about weight?TIAJames Fuller________________________________________________________________________________
How does white pine compare to spruce or fir as regards strength?As I recall fir is somewhat heavier but is correspondingly stronger. Ispine stronger/weaker?how about weight?TIAJames Fuller________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing Spars
Original Posted By: "James Fuller"
James: I am sorry, but gave my "Western Woods Engineering Book" to a friendand never got it back. This is the reason I now write down the names ofpeople I lend things to! I think if you contact the Western WoodsAssociation they can send you one. As I remember, there was no charge, andI believe they are located in WI or MN. Good luck, I hope you can find one.----- Original Message -----
James: I am sorry, but gave my "Western Woods Engineering Book" to a friendand never got it back. This is the reason I now write down the names ofpeople I lend things to! I think if you contact the Western WoodsAssociation they can send you one. As I remember, there was no charge, andI believe they are located in WI or MN. Good luck, I hope you can find one.----- Original Message -----
Pietenpol-List: Wing Spars
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
I've got a Piet project which came with material for the spars (3 piecewing). The Guy obviously intended to glue up spar blanks from a thinnerpiece of web material and cap strips added to both sides of the main piecetop and bottom. The grain run-out on the cap strips (if that is what theyare called) do not have very good grain characteristics. I'm thinking tojust scrap the material and buy solid spar blanks of the correct dimension.I'm also wondering if it is worth the effort to rout out the areas betweenthe ribs as detailed in the plans.Second question - Did we resolve the motorcycle wheel issue? Have they beenused successfully? What about the size? The plans show 24 inches but I seesome folks are using different sizes.Bob________________________________________________________________________________
I've got a Piet project which came with material for the spars (3 piecewing). The Guy obviously intended to glue up spar blanks from a thinnerpiece of web material and cap strips added to both sides of the main piecetop and bottom. The grain run-out on the cap strips (if that is what theyare called) do not have very good grain characteristics. I'm thinking tojust scrap the material and buy solid spar blanks of the correct dimension.I'm also wondering if it is worth the effort to rout out the areas betweenthe ribs as detailed in the plans.Second question - Did we resolve the motorcycle wheel issue? Have they beenused successfully? What about the size? The plans show 24 inches but I seesome folks are using different sizes.Bob________________________________________________________________________________
RE: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
That sounds like a plunge.Good to hear that you are making progress. Time never seems to pass asslowly as it does during the time between the moment you decide to build aPietenpol and the time you can actually start to build. There's always lotsof planning, and many different ways to solve every challenge. That's halfthe fun of a project like this. Enjoy the journey.Bill C. _____
That sounds like a plunge.Good to hear that you are making progress. Time never seems to pass asslowly as it does during the time between the moment you decide to build aPietenpol and the time you can actually start to build. There's always lotsof planning, and many different ways to solve every challenge. That's halfthe fun of a project like this. Enjoy the journey.Bill C. _____
Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing Spars
Original Posted By: Robert Gow
You could just order new capstrip material if the main web is OK. I priced ordering it all to build up an I beam like you describe, and I priced full size spars. Full size was cheaper. I think the built up would be great and probably stronger. One thing I could never find any guidance on is whether it would be acceptable to splice the capstrips and use shorter pieces to buld them up. I can think of no reason why not, as long as any splices are staggered.For what it is worth, it just cost me $1100 (shipping included) for four 15 foot 1x4.75 spars and enough spar material for the ailerons and aileron false spars. All from Wicks, shipped within two weeks of ordering, shipping took two days to get here (VA). I know it is expensive, but I figured this was the one place not to scrimp. I plan on my little boy flying this, and I never want to have to wonder.I am making the one piece wing, and I am routing the spars, for one reason, because it makes the center splice easier. (I can explain why if anyone is seriously planning on building one-piece wing) ----- Original Message -----
You could just order new capstrip material if the main web is OK. I priced ordering it all to build up an I beam like you describe, and I priced full size spars. Full size was cheaper. I think the built up would be great and probably stronger. One thing I could never find any guidance on is whether it would be acceptable to splice the capstrips and use shorter pieces to buld them up. I can think of no reason why not, as long as any splices are staggered.For what it is worth, it just cost me $1100 (shipping included) for four 15 foot 1x4.75 spars and enough spar material for the ailerons and aileron false spars. All from Wicks, shipped within two weeks of ordering, shipping took two days to get here (VA). I know it is expensive, but I figured this was the one place not to scrimp. I plan on my little boy flying this, and I never want to have to wonder.I am making the one piece wing, and I am routing the spars, for one reason, because it makes the center splice easier. (I can explain why if anyone is seriously planning on building one-piece wing) ----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing Spars
Original Posted By: gcardinal(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing SparsGene,How are you planning to cut the taper for your spar splices? I made a "ramp" type affair for my router to ride on, and it worked pretty good. I can dig up some pictures if you need it. Dan HelsperPoplar Grove, IL.**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/ ... 0000000017 )________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing SparsGene,How are you planning to cut the taper for your spar splices? I made a "ramp" type affair for my router to ride on, and it worked pretty good. I can dig up some pictures if you need it. Dan HelsperPoplar Grove, IL.**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/ ... 0000000017 )________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons
Original Posted By: Oscar Zuniga
Ben,Where in Minnesota are you located?Contact me off list and we'll see if we can arrange a project visit. Greg CardinalMinneapolisBen, Where in Minnesota are you located?Contact me off list and we'll see if we can arrange a project visit. Greg CardinalMinneapolis ________________________________________________________________________________
Ben,Where in Minnesota are you located?Contact me off list and we'll see if we can arrange a project visit. Greg CardinalMinneapolisBen, Where in Minnesota are you located?Contact me off list and we'll see if we can arrange a project visit. Greg CardinalMinneapolis ________________________________________________________________________________