Pietenpol-List: Model T water pump on Model A Ford block........

[matronics]

Original Posted By: Earl Myers
Piet List; This is for anyone interested in adapting a Model T water pump to aModel A block. I have a note here for John McNarry and one other fellathat made mention of it. John, the T pump does indeed bolt right ontothe A block. It uses the same gasket too. (Henry's Interchange System?).It does interfere with the oil filler tube......... I have a choice of using the above or a side mounted washing machinepump because the radiator I had built for my Scout is too deep (front toback). That is because I had the radiator built big enough to handle 30%more capacity than a stock "A" radiator. I did that because I intend toinstall a stock looking but "souped up" A or B engine down the road,hence the need for more radiator area early on and about the onlyconsistant problem with Model "A"'s seems to be overheating when used inaeroplanes. I am told that by numerous old Ford Gents. It has to do withthe position of the stock water pump being up where it is on top of thehead when in the car and the cruising RPM being "high" when used in aplane. Can anyone tell me what the "cruising" RPM is in a stock "A" autoat 55 mph highway speed? I choose the "T" pump instead of the washing machine deal solelybecause it looks better. It can be hid under the cowling so the cowlingfit on that side is much cleaner and simpler. It bolts onto the block inthe normal spot and induces the liquid stuff into the side of the blockavoiding "steam cavation" of the pump in the stock location. The samealuminum plate that becomes the "rear" engine cover plate is extendedout a bit to hold the other end of the tube shaped "T" water pump. This"steam cavation" issue seems logical to me and I thought I read of itfrom someone on this list, no? I also heard of it from the S.O.S.S.racing gang as well. That Magazine is where I saw this "improved" aftermarket tubular racing "T" pump advertised. I also have pictures of aScout (Broadhead?) with a "stock" "T" pump on the side as well. Seems tome that is what got my attention to start with. Chad Wille (St. Croix propellor maker) built a georgeous Scout poweredwith a Model "C" (his designation) and used NO water pump at all, justthe thermo-sypthon "system". Sorry Chad, I don't trust that one! Hereports in the 40 some hours he flew it prior to it going into a Museum, it never had a hot water problem................ The Model "C" issuealways starts a fight......Chad's came from an original outdoor standalone power unit used in mining, I think? He hales from Oregon, nowlives in Iowa, flies a Piet he built 25 years ago, makes props and Pietkits and has built 3 of them, I think. John, the engine man, McNarry, ever heard of this Ford Model "C"contraversy? I have had a few people say they existed but Grant Maclarenand the A gang's research says no, that came from a "C" casted into thehead of a "B" engine. Chad's "C" had a few differences too such asautomatic distributor advance and so on.........Earl MyersPiet List; This is for anyone interestedin adaptinga Model T water pump to a Model A block. I have a note here for JohnMcNarry andone other fella that made mention of it. John, the T pump doesindeed boltright onto the A block. It uses the same gasket too. (Henry'sInterchangeSystem?). It does interfere with the oil fillertube......... I have a choice of using theabove or aside mounted washing machine pump because the radiator I had built formy Scoutis too deep (front to back). That is because I had the radiator builtbig enoughto handle 30% more capacity than a stock A radiator. I didthatbecause I intend to install a stock looking but souped up Aor Bengine down the road, hence the need for more radiator area early on andaboutthe only consistant problem with Model A's seems to beoverheatingwhen used in aeroplanes. I am told that by numerous old Ford Gents. Ithas to dowith the position of the stock water pump being up where it is on top ofthehead when in the car and the cruising RPM being high whenused in aplane. Can anyone tell me what the cruising RPM is in astockA auto at 55 mph highway speed? I choose the Tpump insteadof the washing machine deal solely because it looks better. It can behid underthe cowling so the cowling fit on that side is much cleaner and simpler.Itbolts onto the block in the normal spot and induces the liquid stuffinto theside of the block avoiding steam cavation of the pump in thestocklocation. The same aluminum plate that becomes the rearengine coverplate is extended out a bit to hold the other end of the tube shapedT water pump. This steam cavation issue seemslogical tome and I thought I read of it from someone on this list, no? I alsoheard of itfrom the S.O.S.S. racing gang as well. That Magazine is where I saw thisimproved after market tubular racing T pumpadvertised.I also have pictures of a Scout (Broadhead?) with a stockT pump on the side as well. Seems to me that is what got myattention to start with. Chad Wille (St. Croixpropellor maker)built a georgeous Scout powered with a Model C (hisdesignation) andused NO water pump at all, just the thermo-sypthon system.SorryChad, I don't trust that one! He reports in the 40 some hours he flew itpriorto it going into a Museum, it never had a hot waterproblem................ The Model C issue always starts afight......Chad's came from an original outdoor stand alone powerunitused in mining, I think? He hales from Oregon, now lives in Iowa, fliesa Piethe built 25 years ago, makes props and Piet kits and has built 3 ofthem, Ithink. John, the engine man,McNarry, ever heardof this Ford Model C contraversy? I have had a few peoplesay theyexisted but Grant Maclaren and the A gang's research says no, that camefrom aC casted into the head of a B engine. Chad'sC had a few differences too such as automatic distributoradvanceand so on.........EarlMyers________________________________________________________________________________

[matronics]

Original Posted By: fishin
Earl,In reply to your question of how many RPMs a Model A Ford engine turns at 55 mph -- According to page 144 "Model A Miseries and Cures" 55 mph would be 2357 rpms. Note, they didn't mention if 1928-29 or 1930-31 wheels, as the 28-29 wheel and tireis a little taller (21" versus 19"). One or both of the Model A clubs published a great chart showing the different engine speeds versus road speed based on tire size and rear end ratio. I never cruised my Ford faster than 45-47 mph until I installed an overdrive. The same book shows 45 mph would be 1928 rpms. The A engine will do that for year after year. Concerning the "Model C" engine question -- even the Model A Ford bulletin boards send you to Grant's excellent explanation of why Ford never called any of his 4 cylinder engines a Model C. That being said, there are still lots of folks who call a 1932 to 34 Ford 4 cylinder with a counter balanced crank a Model C. Page 294 and 295 of the book "Henry's Lady," the older 1972 edition calls it that. I don't know if the later editions correct that or not. For doing lots of driving, the counterbalanced crank is sought after for smoothness. It and the "B" crank both have slightly larger bearing surfaces than the "A" crank. I don't really care what they call it -- I was willing to pay a little more for thecounterbalanced crank engine for my car to drive daily (not for show). However, I haven't been reading this forum long enough to see if there is a consensus on whether the Model A, B, or a counterbalance crank is better in the airplane application. The counterbalanced crank adds weight -- but I don't know if the reduction in vibration is worth the extra weight. Hope that helps and good luck on your Piet.Hap________________________________________________________________________________

[matronics]

Original Posted By: ArkiesAir(at)aol.com
Earl, the following is taken fron the feb 1957 issue of science &mechanicsspeedometer MPH=54 (top), true MPH=55.5, engine RPM-2520..this is froman article on the 1930 Model A roadster..(the quarter mile was 50MPH in27.6 secs)regardsJoeCZion, IllinoisEarl Myers wrote:> Can anyone tell me what the "cruising" RPM is in a stock "A" auto at> 55 mph highway speed?Earl, the following is taken fron the feb 1957 issue of science mechanicsspeedometer MPH=54 (top), true MPH=55.5, engine RPM-2520..this is froman article on the 1930 Model A roadster..(the quarter mile was 50MPH in27.6 secs)regardsJoeCZion, IllinoisEarl Myers wrote:Can anyonetell me what the "cruising" RPM is in a stock "A" auto at 55 mph highwayspeed?________________________________________________________________________________

[matronics]

Original Posted By: Copinfo
> Concerning the "Model C" engine question -- even the Model A Ford bulletin > boards send you to Grant's excellent explanation of why Ford never called > any > of his 4 cylinder engines a Model C. That being said, there are still lots > of folks who call a 1932 to 34 Ford 4 cylinder with a counter balanced crank > > a Model C. Page 294 and 295 of the book "Henry's Lady," the older 1972 > edition calls it that. I don't know if the later editions correct that or > not. For doing lots of driving, the counterbalanced crank is sought after > for smoothness. It and the "B" crank both have slightly larger bearing > surfaces than the "A" crank. In my Dec 1987 Edition on page 294 "With the introduction of the 1933 models, Ford announced the model C engine.Picture of a model C engine in a Model "A"The letter C is cast into the head between cylinders 2 & 3.Picture showing a Model C engine with the water pump now mounted with three bolts rather than four. Also a blanking plate over the fuel pump mount in the picture.I've had two model "A"s but now all I have is a large stack of books.Some day I will find another one and fall in Love with it.Gordon________________________________________________________________________________