Original Posted By: "BELLISSIMO, DOMENIC"
Subject: Pietenpol-List: piano hinge>Dear Engineers,>> Why have I not heard anyone talk of using the aluminum piano hinge>on elevator and rudder such as Michael did on his ailerons? Is there a>simple reason not to.....let's say for safety's sake, that I'm just not>getting. What gives?>>Dannymac>>________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: piano hinge
Pietenpol-List: piano hinge
Original Posted By: dannymac
Dear Engineers, Why have I not heard anyone talk of using the aluminum piano hingeon elevator and rudder such as Michael did on his ailerons? Is there asimple reason not to.....let's say for safety's sake, that I'm just notgetting. What gives?Dannymac________________________________________________________________________________
Dear Engineers, Why have I not heard anyone talk of using the aluminum piano hingeon elevator and rudder such as Michael did on his ailerons? Is there asimple reason not to.....let's say for safety's sake, that I'm just notgetting. What gives?Dannymac________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: piano hinge
Original Posted By: dannymac
Dmac; I didn't use the alum piano hinge on the tail surfaces as I didn't think itwould look right. You would have to slot both mating pieces to accept thehinge and there isn't a gap seal problem to speak of to cure. The "old"hinges look "airplane-ish" I guess.........The piano hinge on the aileronslooks like it otta be there and is hardly noticeable. Piano hinges on thetail would stike out like a sore...uh....thumb !?!?-----Original Message-----
Dmac; I didn't use the alum piano hinge on the tail surfaces as I didn't think itwould look right. You would have to slot both mating pieces to accept thehinge and there isn't a gap seal problem to speak of to cure. The "old"hinges look "airplane-ish" I guess.........The piano hinge on the aileronslooks like it otta be there and is hardly noticeable. Piano hinges on thetail would stike out like a sore...uh....thumb !?!?-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: piano hinge
Original Posted By: Michael D Cuy
Subject: Pietenpol-List: piano hinge>Jack and Earl are right on about using alum. extruded>piano hinge as an alternative to the aileron hinge question.>I used the full six foot length on each aileron (or something>close to 6 ft.) and have no problem with binding of any>sort. This serves as the complete gap seal then- no tapes>to mess with. You can, of course, use smaller sections>of piano hinge though.> Earl M. passed this idea of using piano hinge on down to>me and I'm very, very pleased with the results.>Before covering the wing/aileron I installed self-locking>floating nut plates avail. thru ACS or Wicks of a small>machine screw size. These were wood screwed with>a dab of epoxy on the wood screw threads. The hinge>is then marked and drilled and the inside faces of the>hinge countersunk to accept countersunk phillips head>machine screws. The distance between attachments>is up to you- I used about 8" between for mine as I recall.>>Mike C.>________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pietenpol-List: piano hinge>Jack and Earl are right on about using alum. extruded>piano hinge as an alternative to the aileron hinge question.>I used the full six foot length on each aileron (or something>close to 6 ft.) and have no problem with binding of any>sort. This serves as the complete gap seal then- no tapes>to mess with. You can, of course, use smaller sections>of piano hinge though.> Earl M. passed this idea of using piano hinge on down to>me and I'm very, very pleased with the results.>Before covering the wing/aileron I installed self-locking>floating nut plates avail. thru ACS or Wicks of a small>machine screw size. These were wood screwed with>a dab of epoxy on the wood screw threads. The hinge>is then marked and drilled and the inside faces of the>hinge countersunk to accept countersunk phillips head>machine screws. The distance between attachments>is up to you- I used about 8" between for mine as I recall.>>Mike C.>________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: piano hinge
Original Posted By: michael list
Jack and Earl are right on about using alum. extrudedpiano hinge as an alternative to the aileron hinge question.I used the full six foot length on each aileron (or somethingclose to 6 ft.) and have no problem with binding of anysort. This serves as the complete gap seal then- no tapesto mess with. You can, of course, use smaller sectionsof piano hinge though. Earl M. passed this idea of using piano hinge on down tome and I'm very, very pleased with the results. Before covering the wing/aileron I installed self-locking floating nut plates avail. thru ACS or Wicks of a smallmachine screw size. These were wood screwed witha dab of epoxy on the wood screw threads. The hingeis then marked and drilled and the inside faces of thehinge countersunk to accept countersunk phillips headmachine screws. The distance between attachmentsis up to you- I used about 8" between for mine as I recall.Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Jack and Earl are right on about using alum. extrudedpiano hinge as an alternative to the aileron hinge question.I used the full six foot length on each aileron (or somethingclose to 6 ft.) and have no problem with binding of anysort. This serves as the complete gap seal then- no tapesto mess with. You can, of course, use smaller sectionsof piano hinge though. Earl M. passed this idea of using piano hinge on down tome and I'm very, very pleased with the results. Before covering the wing/aileron I installed self-locking floating nut plates avail. thru ACS or Wicks of a smallmachine screw size. These were wood screwed witha dab of epoxy on the wood screw threads. The hingeis then marked and drilled and the inside faces of thehinge countersunk to accept countersunk phillips headmachine screws. The distance between attachmentsis up to you- I used about 8" between for mine as I recall.Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: RE: piano hinge
Original Posted By:> Michael D Cuy [SMTP:Michael.D.Cuy(at)lerc.nasa.gov]
I forgot to mention the nutplates. I used them too, this allows you to removeand reinstall the aileron without having to cut access through the fabric to tightenthe nuts. I'm sure Mike is right, the amount of flexing a Pietenpol wingwould experience under load would probably not cause any binding of the hinges.The primary reason I did not use full length hinges was that it is veryeasy to align two short sections of hinge, but more difficult to align a longone. My ailerons move extremely easily and smoothly. Jack> -----Original Message-----
I forgot to mention the nutplates. I used them too, this allows you to removeand reinstall the aileron without having to cut access through the fabric to tightenthe nuts. I'm sure Mike is right, the amount of flexing a Pietenpol wingwould experience under load would probably not cause any binding of the hinges.The primary reason I did not use full length hinges was that it is veryeasy to align two short sections of hinge, but more difficult to align a longone. My ailerons move extremely easily and smoothly. Jack> -----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: piano hinge
Original Posted By: Warren Shoun
Mike, et al, I saw the piano hinge on your video, and that is a great idea, which I will use, but I have a question about the gap sealing properties discussed. I know gap-sealing is important for drag-reduction on higher speed aircraft, but on a Piet, is it more for improved control response? Is flutter a potential problem, or does the extra drag make a noticeable difference in speed. I bet it's also a pride of workmanship thing, too. I was just curious.Thanks,Gary Meadows________________________________________________________________________________
Mike, et al, I saw the piano hinge on your video, and that is a great idea, which I will use, but I have a question about the gap sealing properties discussed. I know gap-sealing is important for drag-reduction on higher speed aircraft, but on a Piet, is it more for improved control response? Is flutter a potential problem, or does the extra drag make a noticeable difference in speed. I bet it's also a pride of workmanship thing, too. I was just curious.Thanks,Gary Meadows________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: piano hinge
Original Posted By: Craig Lawler
Hi Gary, Without a gap seal at the aileron hinge point, the airfoil lift sucks airflow thru this gap. This seriously disturbs things, right where you need asmooth flow for aileron effectiveness. Your ailerons will work without the gapseal, but, they work so much better with them.Cheers,WarrenGary Meadows wrote:> Mike, et al,>> I saw the piano hinge on your video, and that is a great idea, which I> will use, but I have a question about the gap sealing properties discussed.> I know gap-sealing is important for drag-reduction on higher speed aircraft,> but on a Piet, is it more for improved control response? Is flutter a> potential problem, or does the extra drag make a noticeable difference in> speed. I bet it's also a pride of workmanship thing, too. I was just> curious.>> Thanks,> Gary Meadows>________________________________________________________________________________
Hi Gary, Without a gap seal at the aileron hinge point, the airfoil lift sucks airflow thru this gap. This seriously disturbs things, right where you need asmooth flow for aileron effectiveness. Your ailerons will work without the gapseal, but, they work so much better with them.Cheers,WarrenGary Meadows wrote:> Mike, et al,>> I saw the piano hinge on your video, and that is a great idea, which I> will use, but I have a question about the gap sealing properties discussed.> I know gap-sealing is important for drag-reduction on higher speed aircraft,> but on a Piet, is it more for improved control response? Is flutter a> potential problem, or does the extra drag make a noticeable difference in> speed. I bet it's also a pride of workmanship thing, too. I was just> curious.>> Thanks,> Gary Meadows>________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: piano hinge
Original Posted By: Michael D Cuy
Mike, So that means that , in cross section, the hinge would be standing like an"A", with the hinge fastened to the inside of the " aileron spars"?If this is right, do you have to modify anything to get the gap spacing thesame? And finally, is the pin center at the same point as original?thankswalt evans-----Original Message-----
Mike, So that means that , in cross section, the hinge would be standing like an"A", with the hinge fastened to the inside of the " aileron spars"?If this is right, do you have to modify anything to get the gap spacing thesame? And finally, is the pin center at the same point as original?thankswalt evans-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: piano hinge
Original Posted By: Jim Wright
>Mike,> So that means that , in cross section, the hinge would be standing like an>"A", with the hinge fastened to the inside of the " aileron spars"?>If this is right, do you have to modify anything to get the gap spacing the>same? And finally, is the pin center at the same point as original?>thanks>walt evansWalt- Exactly right. The gap spacing seemed to work out justfine with piano hinge. I'd guess the thickness of the folded hingeis about 1/8" to 3/16's. You just install the edge of the hingeflush with the top of the wing and aileron and the pin falls where it'ssupposed to.Mike C. Mike, So that means that , in cross section, the hinge would bestanding like anA, with the hinge fastened to the inside of the aileron spars?If this is right, do you have to modify anything to get the gapspacing thesame? And finally, is the pin center at the same point asoriginal?thankswalt evansWalt- Exactly right. The gap spacing seemed to work outjustfine with piano hinge. I'd guess the thickness of the foldedhingeis about 1/8 to 3/16's. You just install the edge ofthe hingeflush with the top of the wing and aileron and the pin falls whereit'ssupposed to.Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
>Mike,> So that means that , in cross section, the hinge would be standing like an>"A", with the hinge fastened to the inside of the " aileron spars"?>If this is right, do you have to modify anything to get the gap spacing the>same? And finally, is the pin center at the same point as original?>thanks>walt evansWalt- Exactly right. The gap spacing seemed to work out justfine with piano hinge. I'd guess the thickness of the folded hingeis about 1/8" to 3/16's. You just install the edge of the hingeflush with the top of the wing and aileron and the pin falls where it'ssupposed to.Mike C. Mike, So that means that , in cross section, the hinge would bestanding like anA, with the hinge fastened to the inside of the aileron spars?If this is right, do you have to modify anything to get the gapspacing thesame? And finally, is the pin center at the same point asoriginal?thankswalt evansWalt- Exactly right. The gap spacing seemed to work outjustfine with piano hinge. I'd guess the thickness of the foldedhingeis about 1/8 to 3/16's. You just install the edge ofthe hingeflush with the top of the wing and aileron and the pin falls whereit'ssupposed to.Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: piano hinge
Original Posted By: walter evans
Walt; The barrel or hinge pin side or whatever you want to call it basically liesflush with the top of the wing and aileron the whole length of the 6' hinge.This achieves the same hinge point that the hardware store hinges had as perthe plans. I originally bought Stanley hinges for the ailerons and justdidn't like the feel or sloppiness of them, hence the piano hinge. I choosethe extruded hinge as I had some laying around and it is stronger than theother..... I realize now that was overkill after seeing numerous highperformance planes with the regular wrapped hinge. I choose MS 21059 L08floating nut plates that screw to the insides of the ailerons and inside thewing. This way the hinge is totally exposed for removal of it via attachscrews. Long story made short, if you give me your snail address off linehere, I will mail you a copy of my drawing. There are a lot more tidbits onit about trim strips for fabric and so forth. This is what The Honorable Mr.Cuy used on his ship and it seems to work fine. I used it on my Scout toobut it hasn't flown yet.Earl Myers-----Original Message-----
Walt; The barrel or hinge pin side or whatever you want to call it basically liesflush with the top of the wing and aileron the whole length of the 6' hinge.This achieves the same hinge point that the hardware store hinges had as perthe plans. I originally bought Stanley hinges for the ailerons and justdidn't like the feel or sloppiness of them, hence the piano hinge. I choosethe extruded hinge as I had some laying around and it is stronger than theother..... I realize now that was overkill after seeing numerous highperformance planes with the regular wrapped hinge. I choose MS 21059 L08floating nut plates that screw to the insides of the ailerons and inside thewing. This way the hinge is totally exposed for removal of it via attachscrews. Long story made short, if you give me your snail address off linehere, I will mail you a copy of my drawing. There are a lot more tidbits onit about trim strips for fabric and so forth. This is what The Honorable Mr.Cuy used on his ship and it seems to work fine. I used it on my Scout toobut it hasn't flown yet.Earl Myers-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: RE: piano hinge
Original Posted By: Earl Myers [SMTP:allaire(at)raex.com]
WaltIt you'll send me a copy I'll scan it and put it on the web.Intel CorporationMarc Davis2111 25th Ave, JF2-53 Hillsboro OR 97124Marc-----Original Message-----
WaltIt you'll send me a copy I'll scan it and put it on the web.Intel CorporationMarc Davis2111 25th Ave, JF2-53 Hillsboro OR 97124Marc-----Original Message-----