Original Posted By: joe czaplicki
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: trim>joe czaplicki wrote:>>>> Hi Group,,,Does anyone have a source for drawings for an elevator trim>> system that's adaptable to the Piet?>> I know Piets are flying both with and without a trim system but I'm atthe>> building stage now that I'd like to explore this avenue.>> Thanks for any input.>> Joe C>> Zion, Ill>>>Aircooled Piet at Brodhed had small winglets, maybe 8-10" long>with 4-5" chord on both sides of tailpost - controlled I think>with bellcranks & push/pull rods. Winglets had small endplates>on them. I wasn't paying too much attention, but I took some>pics - if they are of any value, I'll send you prints. Pics>will show N number & you can trace down at FAA site, or maybe>someone remembers more details than me. Red Piet with nifty>cowl full of louvers, tall covered wheels if I recall........>>>Lee in MI>>________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: trim
Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By: "Lee L. Schiek"
Hi Group,,,Does anyone have a source for drawings for an elevator trimsystem that's adaptable to the Piet?I know Piets are flying both with and without a trim system but I'm at thebuilding stage now that I'd like to explore this avenue.Thanks for any input.Joe CZion, Ill________________________________________________________________________________
Hi Group,,,Does anyone have a source for drawings for an elevator trimsystem that's adaptable to the Piet?I know Piets are flying both with and without a trim system but I'm at thebuilding stage now that I'd like to explore this avenue.Thanks for any input.Joe CZion, Ill________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: trim
Original Posted By: Lee L. Schiek
Lee,How about sending a copy of those photos to Richard DeCosta so he can postthem on his web site? I'd sure like to see them.Brent ReedKent, WA-----Original Message-----
Lee,How about sending a copy of those photos to Richard DeCosta so he can postthem on his web site? I'd sure like to see them.Brent ReedKent, WA-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: trim
Original Posted By: oil can
joe czaplicki wrote:> > Hi Group,,,Does anyone have a source for drawings for an elevator trim> system that's adaptable to the Piet?> I know Piets are flying both with and without a trim system but I'm at the> building stage now that I'd like to explore this avenue.> Thanks for any input.> Joe C> Zion, IllAircooled Piet at Brodhed had small winglets, maybe 8-10" longwith 4-5" chord on both sides of tailpost - controlled I thinkwith bellcranks & push/pull rods. Winglets had small endplateson them. I wasn't paying too much attention, but I took somepics - if they are of any value, I'll send you prints. Picswill show N number & you can trace down at FAA site, or maybesomeone remembers more details than me. Red Piet with niftycowl full of louvers, tall covered wheels if I recall........ Lee in MI________________________________________________________________________________
joe czaplicki wrote:> > Hi Group,,,Does anyone have a source for drawings for an elevator trim> system that's adaptable to the Piet?> I know Piets are flying both with and without a trim system but I'm at the> building stage now that I'd like to explore this avenue.> Thanks for any input.> Joe C> Zion, IllAircooled Piet at Brodhed had small winglets, maybe 8-10" longwith 4-5" chord on both sides of tailpost - controlled I thinkwith bellcranks & push/pull rods. Winglets had small endplateson them. I wasn't paying too much attention, but I took somepics - if they are of any value, I'll send you prints. Picswill show N number & you can trace down at FAA site, or maybesomeone remembers more details than me. Red Piet with niftycowl full of louvers, tall covered wheels if I recall........ Lee in MI________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: trim
Original Posted By: "Lee L. Schiek"
I think I liked John Fahey's trim better. It was simple.He had a friction wheel with cable / bungie / cable inserieswhich was connected then to the elevator bell crank in thefuselage.--/-------------------- |~~_____/~~__ ||scott(at)haulpak.com | o' ~~|~~~ | by EMAIL1.BYU.EDU (PMDF V5.1-10 #U3118)Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 21:50:58 -0700________________________________________________________________________________
I think I liked John Fahey's trim better. It was simple.He had a friction wheel with cable / bungie / cable inserieswhich was connected then to the elevator bell crank in thefuselage.--/-------------------- |~~_____/~~__ ||scott(at)haulpak.com | o' ~~|~~~ | by EMAIL1.BYU.EDU (PMDF V5.1-10 #U3118)Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 21:50:58 -0700________________________________________________________________________________
> Re: trim
Original Posted By: joe czaplicki
Hi Lee; I'd sure appreciate any prints or negatives you might send. myaddress is 1915 Gideon Ave., Zion, Ill, 60099ThnxJoe C >Lee,>>How about sending a copy of those photos to Richard DeCosta so he can post>them on his web site? I'd sure like to see them.>>Brent Reed>Kent, WA>-----Original Message----->From: Lee L. Schiek >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Date: Monday, August 17, 1998 6:54 PM>Subject: Re: trim>>>>joe czaplicki wrote:>>>>>> Hi Group,,,Does anyone have a source for drawings for an elevator trim>>> system that's adaptable to the Piet?>>> I know Piets are flying both with and without a trim system but I'm at>the>>> building stage now that I'd like to explore this avenue.>>> Thanks for any input.>>> Joe C>>> Zion, Ill>>>>>>Aircooled Piet at Brodhed had small winglets, maybe 8-10" long>>with 4-5" chord on both sides of tailpost - controlled I think>>with bellcranks & push/pull rods. Winglets had small endplates>>on them. I wasn't paying too much attention, but I took some>>pics - if they are of any value, I'll send you prints. Pics>>will show N number & you can trace down at FAA site, or maybe>>someone remembers more details than me. Red Piet with nifty>>cowl full of louvers, tall covered wheels if I recall........>>>>>>Lee in MI>>>>>>________________________________________________________________________________
Hi Lee; I'd sure appreciate any prints or negatives you might send. myaddress is 1915 Gideon Ave., Zion, Ill, 60099ThnxJoe C >Lee,>>How about sending a copy of those photos to Richard DeCosta so he can post>them on his web site? I'd sure like to see them.>>Brent Reed>Kent, WA>-----Original Message----->From: Lee L. Schiek >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Date: Monday, August 17, 1998 6:54 PM>Subject: Re: trim>>>>joe czaplicki wrote:>>>>>> Hi Group,,,Does anyone have a source for drawings for an elevator trim>>> system that's adaptable to the Piet?>>> I know Piets are flying both with and without a trim system but I'm at>the>>> building stage now that I'd like to explore this avenue.>>> Thanks for any input.>>> Joe C>>> Zion, Ill>>>>>>Aircooled Piet at Brodhed had small winglets, maybe 8-10" long>>with 4-5" chord on both sides of tailpost - controlled I think>>with bellcranks & push/pull rods. Winglets had small endplates>>on them. I wasn't paying too much attention, but I took some>>pics - if they are of any value, I'll send you prints. Pics>>will show N number & you can trace down at FAA site, or maybe>>someone remembers more details than me. Red Piet with nifty>>cowl full of louvers, tall covered wheels if I recall........>>>>>>Lee in MI>>>>>>________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: trim
Original Posted By: David Scott
Hi Lee;; I'd sure appreciate any prints or negatives you're able to send. Myaddress is 1915 Gideon Ave., Zion, Ill 60099.Thnx AgianJoe CZion, Ill>joe czaplicki wrote:>> >> Hi Group,,,Does anyone have a source for drawings for an elevator trim>> system that's adaptable to the Piet?>> I know Piets are flying both with and without a trim system but I'm at the>> building stage now that I'd like to explore this avenue.>> Thanks for any input.>> Joe C>> Zion, Ill>>>Aircooled Piet at Brodhed had small winglets, maybe 8-10" long>with 4-5" chord on both sides of tailpost - controlled I think>with bellcranks & push/pull rods. Winglets had small endplates>on them. I wasn't paying too much attention, but I took some>pics - if they are of any value, I'll send you prints. Pics>will show N number & you can trace down at FAA site, or maybe>someone remembers more details than me. Red Piet with nifty>cowl full of louvers, tall covered wheels if I recall........ >>>Lee in MI>>________________________________________________________________________________
Hi Lee;; I'd sure appreciate any prints or negatives you're able to send. Myaddress is 1915 Gideon Ave., Zion, Ill 60099.Thnx AgianJoe CZion, Ill>joe czaplicki wrote:>> >> Hi Group,,,Does anyone have a source for drawings for an elevator trim>> system that's adaptable to the Piet?>> I know Piets are flying both with and without a trim system but I'm at the>> building stage now that I'd like to explore this avenue.>> Thanks for any input.>> Joe C>> Zion, Ill>>>Aircooled Piet at Brodhed had small winglets, maybe 8-10" long>with 4-5" chord on both sides of tailpost - controlled I think>with bellcranks & push/pull rods. Winglets had small endplates>on them. I wasn't paying too much attention, but I took some>pics - if they are of any value, I'll send you prints. Pics>will show N number & you can trace down at FAA site, or maybe>someone remembers more details than me. Red Piet with nifty>cowl full of louvers, tall covered wheels if I recall........ >>>Lee in MI>>________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: trim
Original Posted By: David Scott
Lee L. Schiek wrote:> joe czaplicki wrote:> >> > Hi Group,,,Does anyone have a source for drawings for an elevator trim> > system that's adaptable to the Piet?>>> Aircooled Piet at Brodhed had small winglets, maybe 8-10" long> with 4-5" chord on both sides of tailpost -I also saw that setup at Broadhead. Talked with the owner who said he got theidea from a similar setup that Taylorcraft had used on some aircraft. He saidthat it worked ok in cruise.Ken________________________________________________________________________________
Lee L. Schiek wrote:> joe czaplicki wrote:> >> > Hi Group,,,Does anyone have a source for drawings for an elevator trim> > system that's adaptable to the Piet?>>> Aircooled Piet at Brodhed had small winglets, maybe 8-10" long> with 4-5" chord on both sides of tailpost -I also saw that setup at Broadhead. Talked with the owner who said he got theidea from a similar setup that Taylorcraft had used on some aircraft. He saidthat it worked ok in cruise.Ken________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By: Warren Shoun
Subject: Pietenpol-List: trim>>understand>why adding engine thrust offset is standard practice as opposed to making>trim adjustments with the control surfaces or trim tabs. I'm looking for a>general answer and any special considerations applicable to the Piet.>Thanks.>>Mark Boynton>Phoenix, Arizona>>>>>>Simple answer- The Piet does not have adjustable trim tabs.>>Mike B ( Piet N 687 MB )>________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pietenpol-List: trim>>understand>why adding engine thrust offset is standard practice as opposed to making>trim adjustments with the control surfaces or trim tabs. I'm looking for a>general answer and any special considerations applicable to the Piet.>Thanks.>>Mark Boynton>Phoenix, Arizona>>>>>>Simple answer- The Piet does not have adjustable trim tabs.>>Mike B ( Piet N 687 MB )>________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By: Michael D Cuy
>>>Simple answer- The Piet does not have adjustable trim tabs.Mike B ( Piet N 687 MB )________________________________________________________________________________
>>>Simple answer- The Piet does not have adjustable trim tabs.Mike B ( Piet N 687 MB )________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: trim
Original Posted By: Michael Brusilow
Engine offset is used too counteract engine torque. The nice thing about itis that the amount of offset thrust you get changes with the power setting.Engine at idle-(aircraft gliding) = no side thrust generated and noneneeded. Engine at or near full power-(cruise or climb) =maximum side thrustgenerated when it is needed. So the amount of thrust generated works withthe throttle.The effect of a given control surface trim is primarily related to aircraftspeed. For example, the amount of rudder trim required to counteract enginetorque in cruise flight would be way too much when the throttle is reduced(less torque) for descent (about the same airspeed).Also, think about the take-off. When the power is advanced torque increasesright away but the rudder is not very effective until considerable forwardspeed is attained. In the meantime offset thrust is still doing it's job tohelp counteract that torque that is pulling you toward the runway lights.Hope this helps.it's job to help keep-----Original Message-----
Engine offset is used too counteract engine torque. The nice thing about itis that the amount of offset thrust you get changes with the power setting.Engine at idle-(aircraft gliding) = no side thrust generated and noneneeded. Engine at or near full power-(cruise or climb) =maximum side thrustgenerated when it is needed. So the amount of thrust generated works withthe throttle.The effect of a given control surface trim is primarily related to aircraftspeed. For example, the amount of rudder trim required to counteract enginetorque in cruise flight would be way too much when the throttle is reduced(less torque) for descent (about the same airspeed).Also, think about the take-off. When the power is advanced torque increasesright away but the rudder is not very effective until considerable forwardspeed is attained. In the meantime offset thrust is still doing it's job tohelp counteract that torque that is pulling you toward the runway lights.Hope this helps.it's job to help keep-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: trim
Original Posted By: Mike Cunningham
Thanks MichealThe other nice advantage of properly set engine offset is that therequirement to trim out the aircraft by deflecting control surfaces islessened and therefore so is the induced drag. Piets are draggy enough.Has anyone though about making adjustable engine mounts to allowexperimenting with thrust angles? With all the different engines, engineweights and wing positioning to set C of G, how would any of us be sure thatwhat we have is optimum?John Mc-----Original Message-----
Thanks MichealThe other nice advantage of properly set engine offset is that therequirement to trim out the aircraft by deflecting control surfaces islessened and therefore so is the induced drag. Piets are draggy enough.Has anyone though about making adjustable engine mounts to allowexperimenting with thrust angles? With all the different engines, engineweights and wing positioning to set C of G, how would any of us be sure thatwhat we have is optimum?John Mc-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By: mboynton(at)mailexcite.com
>>> With all the different engines, engineweights and wing positioning to set C of G, how would any of us be surethatwhat we have is optimum?John Mc>Hi John:There is over 60 yrs of experience building & flying this airplane. No needto experiment. Ask the guy who owns one.Mike B ( Piet N 687MB )________________________________________________________________________________
>>> With all the different engines, engineweights and wing positioning to set C of G, how would any of us be surethatwhat we have is optimum?John Mc>Hi John:There is over 60 yrs of experience building & flying this airplane. No needto experiment. Ask the guy who owns one.Mike B ( Piet N 687MB )________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: trim
Original Posted By:> Michael Brusilow
Thanks, Mike.Mark BoyntonPhoenix, Arizona> Engine offset is used too counteract engine torque. The nice thing aboutit> is that the amount of offset thrust you get changes with the powersetting.> Engine at idle-(aircraft gliding) = no side thrust generated and none> needed. Engine at or near full power-(cruise or climb) =maximum sidethrust> generated when it is needed. So the amount of thrust generated works with> the throttle.> The effect of a given control surface trim is primarily related toaircraft> speed. For example, the amount of rudder trim required to counteractengine> torque in cruise flight would be way too much when the throttle isreduced> (less torque) for descent (about the same airspeed).> Also, think about the take-off. When the power is advanced torqueincreases> right away but the rudder is not very effective until considerableforward> speed is attained. In the meantime offset thrust is still doing it's jobto> help counteract that torque that is pulling you toward the runwaylights.> Hope this helps.> it's job to help keep> -----Original Message-----
Thanks, Mike.Mark BoyntonPhoenix, Arizona> Engine offset is used too counteract engine torque. The nice thing aboutit> is that the amount of offset thrust you get changes with the powersetting.> Engine at idle-(aircraft gliding) = no side thrust generated and none> needed. Engine at or near full power-(cruise or climb) =maximum sidethrust> generated when it is needed. So the amount of thrust generated works with> the throttle.> The effect of a given control surface trim is primarily related toaircraft> speed. For example, the amount of rudder trim required to counteractengine> torque in cruise flight would be way too much when the throttle isreduced> (less torque) for descent (about the same airspeed).> Also, think about the take-off. When the power is advanced torqueincreases> right away but the rudder is not very effective until considerableforward> speed is attained. In the meantime offset thrust is still doing it's jobto> help counteract that torque that is pulling you toward the runwaylights.> Hope this helps.> it's job to help keep> -----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By: Gary Gower
>First, the ailerons don't require trim, but SEAL THE GAPSI installed a rudder trim to compensate for the 0-200 torque. At fullpower I need a good degree of right rudder. At cruise. 2250 rpm, thetorque is no factor.I do not have elevator trim as such, but I do have a slotted plate inwhich a pin on the stick runs in, the pin is threaded to which is afixeda nylon friction nut. By taking up on the nut, the stick is held in afixed posistion ( fore & aft only ) so my hands are free for chartfolding etc. The slotted plate also serves as an elevator stop.Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr sam )Does this seem to be the only trimthat isnecessary for a Piet? Rudder andailerons don't need inflightadjustment for hands off?Mike BellFirst, the ailerons don't require trim, butSEAL THE GAPS I installed a rudder trim to compensate forthe 0-200torque. At full power I need a good degree of right rudder. At cruise.2250 rpm,the torque is no factor.I do not have elevator trim as such, but I dohave aslotted plate in which a pin on the stick runs in, the pin is threadedto whichis afixed a nylon friction nut. By taking up on the nut, the stick isheld in afixed posistion ( fore aft only ) so my hands are free for chartfoldingetc. The slotted plate also serves as an elevator stop.Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr sam )________________________________________________________________________________
>First, the ailerons don't require trim, but SEAL THE GAPSI installed a rudder trim to compensate for the 0-200 torque. At fullpower I need a good degree of right rudder. At cruise. 2250 rpm, thetorque is no factor.I do not have elevator trim as such, but I do have a slotted plate inwhich a pin on the stick runs in, the pin is threaded to which is afixeda nylon friction nut. By taking up on the nut, the stick is held in afixed posistion ( fore & aft only ) so my hands are free for chartfolding etc. The slotted plate also serves as an elevator stop.Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr sam )Does this seem to be the only trimthat isnecessary for a Piet? Rudder andailerons don't need inflightadjustment for hands off?Mike BellFirst, the ailerons don't require trim, butSEAL THE GAPS I installed a rudder trim to compensate forthe 0-200torque. At full power I need a good degree of right rudder. At cruise.2250 rpm,the torque is no factor.I do not have elevator trim as such, but I dohave aslotted plate in which a pin on the stick runs in, the pin is threadedto whichis afixed a nylon friction nut. By taking up on the nut, the stick isheld in afixed posistion ( fore aft only ) so my hands are free for chartfoldingetc. The slotted plate also serves as an elevator stop.Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr sam )________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: trim
Original Posted By: Gary Gower
--- Michael Brusilow wrote:> necessary for a Piet? Rudder and> ailerons don't need in flight adjustment for hands> off?> > Mike Bell>>> > First, the ailerons don't require trim, but SEAL THE> GAPS > > I installed a rudder trim to compensate for the> 0-200 torque. At full power I need a good degree of> right rudder. At cruise. 2250 rpm, the torque is no> factor.> > I do not have elevator trim as such, but I do have a> slotted plate in which a pin on the stick runs in,> the pin is threaded to which is afixed a nylon> friction nut. By taking up on the nut, the stick is> held in a fixed posistion ( fore & aft only ) so my> hands are free for chart folding etc. The slotted> plate also serves as an elevator stop.> > Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr sam )> > mikeIwould be interested in hearing about that in moredetail. or better to see a picture or diagram.del> > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
--- Michael Brusilow wrote:> necessary for a Piet? Rudder and> ailerons don't need in flight adjustment for hands> off?> > Mike Bell>>> > First, the ailerons don't require trim, but SEAL THE> GAPS > > I installed a rudder trim to compensate for the> 0-200 torque. At full power I need a good degree of> right rudder. At cruise. 2250 rpm, the torque is no> factor.> > I do not have elevator trim as such, but I do have a> slotted plate in which a pin on the stick runs in,> the pin is threaded to which is afixed a nylon> friction nut. By taking up on the nut, the stick is> held in a fixed posistion ( fore & aft only ) so my> hands are free for chart folding etc. The slotted> plate also serves as an elevator stop.> > Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr sam )> > mikeIwould be interested in hearing about that in moredetail. or better to see a picture or diagram.del> > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: trim
Original Posted By: del magsam
--- Michael Brusilow wrote:> necessary for a Piet? Rudder and> ailerons don't need in flight adjustment for hands> off?> > Mike Bell>>> > First, the ailerons don't require trim, but SEAL THE> GAPS > > I installed a rudder trim to compensate for the> 0-200 torque. At full power I need a good degree of> right rudder. At cruise. 2250 rpm, the torque is no> factor.> > I do not have elevator trim as such, but I do have a> slotted plate in which a pin on the stick runs in,> the pin is threaded to which is afixed a nylon> friction nut. By taking up on the nut, the stick is> held in a fixed posistion ( fore & aft only ) so my> hands are free for chart folding etc. The slotted> plate also serves as an elevator stop.> > Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr sam )> > mikeIwould be interested in hearing about that in moredetail. or better to see a picture or diagram.del> > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
--- Michael Brusilow wrote:> necessary for a Piet? Rudder and> ailerons don't need in flight adjustment for hands> off?> > Mike Bell>>> > First, the ailerons don't require trim, but SEAL THE> GAPS > > I installed a rudder trim to compensate for the> 0-200 torque. At full power I need a good degree of> right rudder. At cruise. 2250 rpm, the torque is no> factor.> > I do not have elevator trim as such, but I do have a> slotted plate in which a pin on the stick runs in,> the pin is threaded to which is afixed a nylon> friction nut. By taking up on the nut, the stick is> held in a fixed posistion ( fore & aft only ) so my> hands are free for chart folding etc. The slotted> plate also serves as an elevator stop.> > Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr sam )> > mikeIwould be interested in hearing about that in moredetail. or better to see a picture or diagram.del> > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
> Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By: "Tim Cunningham"
Build the airplane the way Mr. Pietenpol designed it and you will have a good one. Elevator trim is not needed.Joe Santana 444MH>From: del magsam >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>To: piet aircamper >Subject: Pietenpol-List: trim>Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 04:51:19 -0800 (PST)>>>food for thought>yesterday I had an opportunity to fly with a fella in>a brand new mooney eagle (88 hours tt) about 200 miles>and back. 250 mph with gps and auto pilot. what a way>to travel!!>now this is the thought for discussion. On this mooney>the entire tail section was hinged with probably about>an inch of movement up and down. this was the trim. no>trim tabs to create another bump in the airstream.>this seems like it would be a piece of cake to install>on the piet. I know you really don't need it very>badly, but still... comments?>del>>>Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.>Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com>>________________________________________________________________________________
Build the airplane the way Mr. Pietenpol designed it and you will have a good one. Elevator trim is not needed.Joe Santana 444MH>From: del magsam >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>To: piet aircamper >Subject: Pietenpol-List: trim>Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 04:51:19 -0800 (PST)>>>food for thought>yesterday I had an opportunity to fly with a fella in>a brand new mooney eagle (88 hours tt) about 200 miles>and back. 250 mph with gps and auto pilot. what a way>to travel!!>now this is the thought for discussion. On this mooney>the entire tail section was hinged with probably about>an inch of movement up and down. this was the trim. no>trim tabs to create another bump in the airstream.>this seems like it would be a piece of cake to install>on the piet. I know you really don't need it very>badly, but still... comments?>del>>>Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.>Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com>>________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By: "Michael Brusilow"
Del, if you need trim, the aircraft is not rigged properly. I've carriedsome 200 plus pound people in the front of Piet NX899TC and needed no trimchange. It surprised me too, but it fly's the same except the climb isslower and the takeoff roll a little longer. Save the weight andaggravation and forget the trim unless you plan on G.G. changes in flight.Copinfo(at)home.comTim CunninghamDes Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510________________________________________________________________________________
Del, if you need trim, the aircraft is not rigged properly. I've carriedsome 200 plus pound people in the front of Piet NX899TC and needed no trimchange. It surprised me too, but it fly's the same except the climb isslower and the takeoff roll a little longer. Save the weight andaggravation and forget the trim unless you plan on G.G. changes in flight.Copinfo(at)home.comTim CunninghamDes Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By:> del magsam
Del, It sounds like you are looking at a screw-jack system like Piper hason the old cubs. It is relatively simple , but would not work with thePietenpol tail arrangement. The hold down system for the Piet. doesn'tappear to lend itself to a floating stabilizer arrangement.
Del, It sounds like you are looking at a screw-jack system like Piper hason the old cubs. It is relatively simple , but would not work with thePietenpol tail arrangement. The hold down system for the Piet. doesn'tappear to lend itself to a floating stabilizer arrangement.
Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By: Ken Beanlands
>>Build the airplane the way Mr. Pietenpol designed it and you will have a>good one. Elevator trim is not needed.>>Joe Santana 444MHI agree, trim is not needed.Mike Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 16:25:03 -0700 (MST)
>>Build the airplane the way Mr. Pietenpol designed it and you will have a>good one. Elevator trim is not needed.>>Joe Santana 444MHI agree, trim is not needed.Mike Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 16:25:03 -0700 (MST)
Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By: John E Fay
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By: "Gene Rambo"
Del if you're going to do it, I agree with you. The screw jack is simple toconstruct and would be perfect for the Piet. The J-3 Cub is a good example.You need to redesign the tail attach point. I had the same system on a BabyGreat Lakes I had.Copinfo(at)home.comTim CunninghamDes Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510________________________________________________________________________________
Del if you're going to do it, I agree with you. The screw jack is simple toconstruct and would be perfect for the Piet. The J-3 Cub is a good example.You need to redesign the tail attach point. I had the same system on a BabyGreat Lakes I had.Copinfo(at)home.comTim CunninghamDes Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By:> del magsam
I cannot imagine anything more difficult, from a structural standpoint,than making the entire aft 1/3 of the fuselage hinge. Think of the stresson the longerons at the hinge point (not to mention the hinges) . . . thinkof the weight added . .. where would you put the tailskid (wheel)? Howwould you keep the control cables tight as the tail moved? I do not thinkI have ever heard of an elevator cable failure in any type aircraft (unlessshot away in wartime). Flying by trim is not going to save you if such athing ever happened. Ever tried it?----------
I cannot imagine anything more difficult, from a structural standpoint,than making the entire aft 1/3 of the fuselage hinge. Think of the stresson the longerons at the hinge point (not to mention the hinges) . . . thinkof the weight added . .. where would you put the tailskid (wheel)? Howwould you keep the control cables tight as the tail moved? I do not thinkI have ever heard of an elevator cable failure in any type aircraft (unlessshot away in wartime). Flying by trim is not going to save you if such athing ever happened. Ever tried it?----------
Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By: "Sylph"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: trimJohn...don't know about Taylorcraft but Buhl Aircraft did it on their 1930 Bull Pup !! Don Hicks________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: trimJohn...don't know about Taylorcraft but Buhl Aircraft did it on their 1930 Bull Pup !! Don Hicks________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By: Ken Beanlands
Gene, I agree with you that the Mooney style elevator trim, where the whole empennage moves is impractical for a Piet. It would be real hard to engineer, and heavy. Using the jackscrew setup would be the way to go, ala J-3. Again there is some engineering to do, but it would be much simpler. I also agree with Ken B., that elevator trim is a desirable option to put on a plane (if you want to). I have definitely heard of elevator cable breaks, cables jumping off pulleys, (although not a prob on a Piet). I have by the way, landed a plane using just the trim wheel, and throttle, it's not only doable, it usually resulted in a very nice, soft squeaker! Del, draw it up, and try it out!Like Ken, my 2 cents.Gary Meadows14 Ribs and building________________________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 10:15:44 -0700 (MST)
Gene, I agree with you that the Mooney style elevator trim, where the whole empennage moves is impractical for a Piet. It would be real hard to engineer, and heavy. Using the jackscrew setup would be the way to go, ala J-3. Again there is some engineering to do, but it would be much simpler. I also agree with Ken B., that elevator trim is a desirable option to put on a plane (if you want to). I have definitely heard of elevator cable breaks, cables jumping off pulleys, (although not a prob on a Piet). I have by the way, landed a plane using just the trim wheel, and throttle, it's not only doable, it usually resulted in a very nice, soft squeaker! Del, draw it up, and try it out!Like Ken, my 2 cents.Gary Meadows14 Ribs and building________________________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 10:15:44 -0700 (MST)
Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By: Rodger & Betty
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: trimDel, The Mooney trim system has the empennage hinged at the top with toforged aluminum fittings and a geared transmission at the bottom. Thetransmission is operated by a torque tube which runs from the trim wheelall the way back to the tail and the whole thing moves more than an inch. I can't remember now just how much it moves, but I think it's more likefour or five inches. A consistant problem we had with this is that thetwo bolts and a bushing in what we called the "saddle block link" wouldwear out and often had to be replaced. The limit was to grab theelevator a lift; there should be no more than a tenth of an inch play. As far as installing this on a Pietenpol, it would take a lot of work.The hinged portion on a Mooney is also bushed and occassionally thesewould wear out causing sideways play in the horizontal stabilizer. As aMooney is wider than a Piet at the tail, there might be problems instabilizer stability due to the hinges being too close together. Also,the entire tail would have to be redesigned and beefed up because theentire section that the complete tail, the whole after fuselage under theempennage moves with the actuator, not just the horizontal stabilizer. Someone wrote and said that the aft third of the fuselage moves. Thisis not true. The part that moves begins with the leading edge of thestabilizer spar. The idea is the same, but the system of operation iscompletely different than what Piper used on his Cub, Vagabond, and Pacerseries. Another complication is this area is also where the tail wheel attaches. Weight would certainly be another factor to contend with, although theMooney parts aren't particularly heavy. The last time I bought anactuator (Mooney calls it a trim screw), it cost $600 and there has beena big price increase since. If this trim screw fails, there is nocontrol of the tail trim at all, and as it is extremely effective, Idon't know that the elevator could keep maintain control. There was an incident years ago that a Mooney was repaired at what wasthen called "The Mod Center" in the factory. The trim screw was removedto replace the tail and upon reinstallation, the installing mechanicmissed the hole in the trim screw, installing the bolt through theattaching brackets only and pinching the trim screw in place. Asuccessful test flight was taken and the airplane delivered to the owner.On his flight to San Antonio (sixty miles away) the trim screw came outand the pilot made a very hard landing on the runway at International. He broke his back, successfully sued Mooney, and the Manager of the ModCenter lost his A.I. A trim system that works would certainly be appreciated in a Piet,although those who have installed a trim system using bungee cords saythey don't use it for local flights, just for long cross-country flights. I talked to one guy at Brodhead this summer who had a small springattached to his seat with a hardware store turnbuckle to correct for noseheaviness and this looked great. He had a air-cooled engine up front andas we are using a Model A and I and my two partners don't weigh the same,we're going to have tail heaviness problems unless one in particular goeson a diet! Anyway, we plan on doing using the spring and turnbucklesomehow; haven't really gotten that far yet. To put a Mooney type trim on a Piet sounds like an interesting project,but it would be very complecated and add a lot of weight. The partswould have to be virtually indestructable and foolproof as a run awaytrim is extremely serious. I like the spring and turnbuckle methodbecause it follows the KISS principle -- Keep It Simple, Stupid. If you would like to continue with this, I can give you more informationon it. I stall have contacts at Mooney engineering.John Langston ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 12:10:25 -0600
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: trimDel, The Mooney trim system has the empennage hinged at the top with toforged aluminum fittings and a geared transmission at the bottom. Thetransmission is operated by a torque tube which runs from the trim wheelall the way back to the tail and the whole thing moves more than an inch. I can't remember now just how much it moves, but I think it's more likefour or five inches. A consistant problem we had with this is that thetwo bolts and a bushing in what we called the "saddle block link" wouldwear out and often had to be replaced. The limit was to grab theelevator a lift; there should be no more than a tenth of an inch play. As far as installing this on a Pietenpol, it would take a lot of work.The hinged portion on a Mooney is also bushed and occassionally thesewould wear out causing sideways play in the horizontal stabilizer. As aMooney is wider than a Piet at the tail, there might be problems instabilizer stability due to the hinges being too close together. Also,the entire tail would have to be redesigned and beefed up because theentire section that the complete tail, the whole after fuselage under theempennage moves with the actuator, not just the horizontal stabilizer. Someone wrote and said that the aft third of the fuselage moves. Thisis not true. The part that moves begins with the leading edge of thestabilizer spar. The idea is the same, but the system of operation iscompletely different than what Piper used on his Cub, Vagabond, and Pacerseries. Another complication is this area is also where the tail wheel attaches. Weight would certainly be another factor to contend with, although theMooney parts aren't particularly heavy. The last time I bought anactuator (Mooney calls it a trim screw), it cost $600 and there has beena big price increase since. If this trim screw fails, there is nocontrol of the tail trim at all, and as it is extremely effective, Idon't know that the elevator could keep maintain control. There was an incident years ago that a Mooney was repaired at what wasthen called "The Mod Center" in the factory. The trim screw was removedto replace the tail and upon reinstallation, the installing mechanicmissed the hole in the trim screw, installing the bolt through theattaching brackets only and pinching the trim screw in place. Asuccessful test flight was taken and the airplane delivered to the owner.On his flight to San Antonio (sixty miles away) the trim screw came outand the pilot made a very hard landing on the runway at International. He broke his back, successfully sued Mooney, and the Manager of the ModCenter lost his A.I. A trim system that works would certainly be appreciated in a Piet,although those who have installed a trim system using bungee cords saythey don't use it for local flights, just for long cross-country flights. I talked to one guy at Brodhead this summer who had a small springattached to his seat with a hardware store turnbuckle to correct for noseheaviness and this looked great. He had a air-cooled engine up front andas we are using a Model A and I and my two partners don't weigh the same,we're going to have tail heaviness problems unless one in particular goeson a diet! Anyway, we plan on doing using the spring and turnbucklesomehow; haven't really gotten that far yet. To put a Mooney type trim on a Piet sounds like an interesting project,but it would be very complecated and add a lot of weight. The partswould have to be virtually indestructable and foolproof as a run awaytrim is extremely serious. I like the spring and turnbuckle methodbecause it follows the KISS principle -- Keep It Simple, Stupid. If you would like to continue with this, I can give you more informationon it. I stall have contacts at Mooney engineering.John Langston ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 12:10:25 -0600
Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By: nle97(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: trimJohn, That Piet with the seperate trim wings is based at Bentonville, Arkansasand I've been told it doesn't work very well. I have pictures of thefinished installation. Incidently, the pre-war Taylorcrafts did have a trim system like thisand as far as I know, it worked quite well. I did help a guy recoversuch a Taylorcraft several years ago and he never expressed any problemswith the trim.John Langston>>I plan to put trim on my Piet. >>Back in August after the Brodhead fly-in there was a rather extensive>discussion on this forum about trim. You could consult the archives >to>see what was said (if the headers are accurate enough for you to >find>the notes). Many of the piets with trim use a short bungee which >pulls>on the elevator belcrank one way or the other. By the way, Bernard>Pietenpol was going to add a similar setup to his last piet to keep >the>elevator lines from rubbing on the front of the stabilizer when the>plane was parked, but never got around to it (I read that somewhere). > >One piet which is usually at Brodhead uses little wings sticking out >each>side of the rear fuselage for trim (is that the way Taylorcraft do >it?). > >>John in Peoria>> > > > > > > >________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: trimJohn, That Piet with the seperate trim wings is based at Bentonville, Arkansasand I've been told it doesn't work very well. I have pictures of thefinished installation. Incidently, the pre-war Taylorcrafts did have a trim system like thisand as far as I know, it worked quite well. I did help a guy recoversuch a Taylorcraft several years ago and he never expressed any problemswith the trim.John Langston>>I plan to put trim on my Piet. >>Back in August after the Brodhead fly-in there was a rather extensive>discussion on this forum about trim. You could consult the archives >to>see what was said (if the headers are accurate enough for you to >find>the notes). Many of the piets with trim use a short bungee which >pulls>on the elevator belcrank one way or the other. By the way, Bernard>Pietenpol was going to add a similar setup to his last piet to keep >the>elevator lines from rubbing on the front of the stabilizer when the>plane was parked, but never got around to it (I read that somewhere). > >One piet which is usually at Brodhead uses little wings sticking out >each>side of the rear fuselage for trim (is that the way Taylorcraft do >it?). > >>John in Peoria>> > > > > > > >________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By: Lawrence V Williams
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By:> Gary Meadows
Gary, I bet that squeaker wasn't in a tailwheel aircraft! Least of all anose heavy one like the Piet. (smile)When you mention the Piper-type jackscrew, remember that the cub, babylakes, etc. have the fin and rudder attached to the fuselage independently,rather than to the horizontal like the Piet. On the Piet, you'd have toredesign these, as well. If you are really worried about it, the simplesttrim mechanism I can think of would require no mods -- an adjustable bungeein the system. No drag, no engineering, no problem.----------
Gary, I bet that squeaker wasn't in a tailwheel aircraft! Least of all anose heavy one like the Piet. (smile)When you mention the Piper-type jackscrew, remember that the cub, babylakes, etc. have the fin and rudder attached to the fuselage independently,rather than to the horizontal like the Piet. On the Piet, you'd have toredesign these, as well. If you are really worried about it, the simplesttrim mechanism I can think of would require no mods -- an adjustable bungeein the system. No drag, no engineering, no problem.----------
Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By:> Ken Beanlands
Geez, I thought I'd stir some trouble . . . Ken, I didn't say I had neverseen a control failure, I said I had never seen a control cable fail. Obviously you have, but what do you expect from Canada, those bush pilotswill do anything. Regarding the C-180, when people say you "fly" theairplane by the trim, I don't bellieve that is intended literally. I haveflown that one and lots of others that can be controlled quite well withthe trim, but not through landing. As for the Souix City DC-10, it wasflown purely by power adjustments, not trim. I do not believe part 23suggests trim as an emergency backup, but I could be mistaken on that one. I do not doubt that airplanes have been flown by trim alone in emergencysituations, I have heard of it being done. What I meant was, adding trimpurely as an emergency backup would be for the wrong reasons. Moreover, Ifyou are on climb out in your Piet and the up elevator cable suddenly snapped, I doubt if any of us could regain control and land the airplanesolely with the trim.----------
Geez, I thought I'd stir some trouble . . . Ken, I didn't say I had neverseen a control failure, I said I had never seen a control cable fail. Obviously you have, but what do you expect from Canada, those bush pilotswill do anything. Regarding the C-180, when people say you "fly" theairplane by the trim, I don't bellieve that is intended literally. I haveflown that one and lots of others that can be controlled quite well withthe trim, but not through landing. As for the Souix City DC-10, it wasflown purely by power adjustments, not trim. I do not believe part 23suggests trim as an emergency backup, but I could be mistaken on that one. I do not doubt that airplanes have been flown by trim alone in emergencysituations, I have heard of it being done. What I meant was, adding trimpurely as an emergency backup would be for the wrong reasons. Moreover, Ifyou are on climb out in your Piet and the up elevator cable suddenly snapped, I doubt if any of us could regain control and land the airplanesolely with the trim.----------
Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By:> nle97(at)juno.com
I wish people would read before criticizing . . . what I said was that theaft 1/3 of the PIET fuselege would hinge. Given its length, and the widthof the horizontal stab, it would be approximately 1/3. Whatever thenumber, it is a lot. The entire aft end of the Mooney does hinge . . thetail is a separate unit. The jackscrew at the bottom moves no more thanthree inches. As he says, hinge is at the top. All of the elevator andrudder controls run through a VERY complicated set of bellcranks tomaintain the same throw on the controls regardless of the tail's position. That is one of the major problems with a Mooney-type trim on a Piet.----------
I wish people would read before criticizing . . . what I said was that theaft 1/3 of the PIET fuselege would hinge. Given its length, and the widthof the horizontal stab, it would be approximately 1/3. Whatever thenumber, it is a lot. The entire aft end of the Mooney does hinge . . thetail is a separate unit. The jackscrew at the bottom moves no more thanthree inches. As he says, hinge is at the top. All of the elevator andrudder controls run through a VERY complicated set of bellcranks tomaintain the same throw on the controls regardless of the tail's position. That is one of the major problems with a Mooney-type trim on a Piet.----------
Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet trim ala Mooney
Original Posted By:> Rodger & Betty
I give up . . . my statement was that it would be difficult, structurally,to put such a system on a Piet. 15 years as a Mooney dealer, ferry pilot,mechanic, inspector, service rep, etc. taught me something.----------
I give up . . . my statement was that it would be difficult, structurally,to put such a system on a Piet. 15 years as a Mooney dealer, ferry pilot,mechanic, inspector, service rep, etc. taught me something.----------
Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By: "Gary Meadows"
Gene, Right-o on the non-tailwheel trim wheel landing, although it has mostly been in a 68 Cessna Cardinal, and it has a pretty nasty reputation in the landing department, (for training wheel planes, anyway)! You know, this whole adventure is progressing, and I haven't the first minute in a tailwheel aircraft as PIC! I think I'll do some J-3 time and get my TW signoff. I definitely agree with you on your last statement about the trim thing. In my book, the simpler the better! I was wondering how the attachment would be on a Piet for the Cub style trim, it would be too far from the original for me, and just too much extra engineering, cause I agree with most that say that Mr. P's way is the right way! You know, I just thought, (it hurt!) as I was about to wrap this note up, that you could attach the vertical stab to the area where the turtle deck comes to a point, put a hinge on the tail post for the horizontal stab, and a jack-screw arrangement where the main front bolts hold down the horizontal stab. Or, easier still, just attach the vertical stab to the horizontal stab and let it move with it, sort of a half Mooney - half J-3 thing. Not for me, but neat to think about! Joe Krzes and I were trading emails that for every oz you add to the tail, you need 3 - 4 oz to balance it in the nose(eyeball rule-of-thumb, I'm sure I'll be challenged on that one). An extra couple lbs back there, and you'll end up adding 8 - 10 lbs to the airplane. I don't want anything that isn't absolutely necessary back there!Gary Meadows14 Ribs and some tail group wood cut!(had to break from the steady diet of ribs!)________________________________________________________________________________
Gene, Right-o on the non-tailwheel trim wheel landing, although it has mostly been in a 68 Cessna Cardinal, and it has a pretty nasty reputation in the landing department, (for training wheel planes, anyway)! You know, this whole adventure is progressing, and I haven't the first minute in a tailwheel aircraft as PIC! I think I'll do some J-3 time and get my TW signoff. I definitely agree with you on your last statement about the trim thing. In my book, the simpler the better! I was wondering how the attachment would be on a Piet for the Cub style trim, it would be too far from the original for me, and just too much extra engineering, cause I agree with most that say that Mr. P's way is the right way! You know, I just thought, (it hurt!) as I was about to wrap this note up, that you could attach the vertical stab to the area where the turtle deck comes to a point, put a hinge on the tail post for the horizontal stab, and a jack-screw arrangement where the main front bolts hold down the horizontal stab. Or, easier still, just attach the vertical stab to the horizontal stab and let it move with it, sort of a half Mooney - half J-3 thing. Not for me, but neat to think about! Joe Krzes and I were trading emails that for every oz you add to the tail, you need 3 - 4 oz to balance it in the nose(eyeball rule-of-thumb, I'm sure I'll be challenged on that one). An extra couple lbs back there, and you'll end up adding 8 - 10 lbs to the airplane. I don't want anything that isn't absolutely necessary back there!Gary Meadows14 Ribs and some tail group wood cut!(had to break from the steady diet of ribs!)________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet trim ala Mooney
Original Posted By: TXTdragger(at)aol.com
Gene, I certainly wasn't wanting to jump you or anything! I understand you were talking in generalities, and not specifics on your first post. I earned my complex endorsement and Commercial ticket in a 1970 M20C. It's a great airplane, and I love 'em - even the backwards vertical stab, (actually I agree with Mooney owners that it's the only one that's on correctly)! I'd own one if I could, but just don't need all that expensive complexity. Mooney's trim is great - for a Mooney! Besides, I don't want to make a fellow with the name "Rambo" mad! I'm sure you're sick of that one, - sorry.________________________________________________________________________________
Gene, I certainly wasn't wanting to jump you or anything! I understand you were talking in generalities, and not specifics on your first post. I earned my complex endorsement and Commercial ticket in a 1970 M20C. It's a great airplane, and I love 'em - even the backwards vertical stab, (actually I agree with Mooney owners that it's the only one that's on correctly)! I'd own one if I could, but just don't need all that expensive complexity. Mooney's trim is great - for a Mooney! Besides, I don't want to make a fellow with the name "Rambo" mad! I'm sure you're sick of that one, - sorry.________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By:> Gary Meadows
also, if you attached the fin to the stab and let the whole thing move,you'd have to hinge the rudder in the middle, or at least give it extraclearance from the tailpost. I doubt you'll be challenged on your math,the tail is 3-4 (or 5) times farther from the cg than the engine area.----------
also, if you attached the fin to the stab and let the whole thing move,you'd have to hinge the rudder in the middle, or at least give it extraclearance from the tailpost. I doubt you'll be challenged on your math,the tail is 3-4 (or 5) times farther from the cg than the engine area.----------
Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By: "Gary Meadows"
Gene, Duh, that's what I get for thinking that late at night! Sure sounded good at the time, now you start getting into those little details like rudders! Like we've said, best to leave well-designed alone! You know, I was also wondering, has anyone ever tried pysically connecting the two elevator halves together like on an R/C plane? On those we always had those rods with the two 90 bends to make it to where we only needed one control horn. You'd need to notch the lower rudder or something, just a thought. I know just more weight!Gary________________________________________________________________________________
Gene, Duh, that's what I get for thinking that late at night! Sure sounded good at the time, now you start getting into those little details like rudders! Like we've said, best to leave well-designed alone! You know, I was also wondering, has anyone ever tried pysically connecting the two elevator halves together like on an R/C plane? On those we always had those rods with the two 90 bends to make it to where we only needed one control horn. You'd need to notch the lower rudder or something, just a thought. I know just more weight!Gary________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By: "Conoly"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: trimThe United DC-10 at Sioux City had no elevator trim available. The approach speed was the speed to which the airplane was trimmed in cruise prior to the hydraulic system failure. To compare a DC-10 and a Pietenpol is a quantum leap. Tom Travis (former DC-10 Fleet Manager and Piet builder) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: trimThe United DC-10 at Sioux City had no elevator trim available. The approach speed was the speed to which the airplane was trimmed in cruise prior to the hydraulic system failure. To compare a DC-10 and a Pietenpol is a quantum leap. Tom Travis (former DC-10 Fleet Manager and Piet builder) ________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Latex Gloves:
Original Posted By: Steve Eldredge
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Latex Gloves:It IS common knowledge in the medcal field that latex can be a problemfor some people. All hospitals and clinics have had to change tononlatex products. There were a lot of medical professionals that hadto change their life plans and find another line of work before this waseffected.________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Latex Gloves:It IS common knowledge in the medcal field that latex can be a problemfor some people. All hospitals and clinics have had to change tononlatex products. There were a lot of medical professionals that hadto change their life plans and find another line of work before this waseffected.________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By: Ccarson480(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: trimtest -please disregard> > I plan to put trim on my Piet. > > Back in August after the Brodhead fly-in there was a rather extensive> discussion on this forum about trim. You could consult the archives to> see what was said (if the headers are accurate enough for you to find> the notes). Many of the piets with trim use a short bungee which pulls> on the elevator belcrank one way or the other. By the way, Bernard> Pietenpol was going to add a similar setup to his last piet to keep the> elevator lines from rubbing on the front of the stabilizer when the> plane was parked, but never got around to it (I read that somewhere). > One piet which is usually at Brodhead uses little wings sticking out each> side of the rear fuselage for trim (is that the way Taylorcraft do it?). > > > John in Peoria> > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: trimtest -please disregard> > I plan to put trim on my Piet. > > Back in August after the Brodhead fly-in there was a rather extensive> discussion on this forum about trim. You could consult the archives to> see what was said (if the headers are accurate enough for you to find> the notes). Many of the piets with trim use a short bungee which pulls> on the elevator belcrank one way or the other. By the way, Bernard> Pietenpol was going to add a similar setup to his last piet to keep the> elevator lines from rubbing on the front of the stabilizer when the> plane was parked, but never got around to it (I read that somewhere). > One piet which is usually at Brodhead uses little wings sticking out each> side of the rear fuselage for trim (is that the way Taylorcraft do it?). > > > John in Peoria> > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By: "Gary Meadows"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: trimNot all Taylorcrafts have the trim under the stabilizer, mine does, it is a 1940, BC-65. Some of the later ones had the trim on the stabilizer.Carl________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: trimNot all Taylorcrafts have the trim under the stabilizer, mine does, it is a 1940, BC-65. Some of the later ones had the trim on the stabilizer.Carl________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By: del magsam
>Anyone want to comment on the general usefulness of having elevator trim>in one's Piet?I haven't done any X-C flying in my Piet yet, but can tell you what my ferry pilot told me about it after flying a bunch of hours in it. He said Corky had really put a nifty trim setup on it, very useful and effective. I know Mike Cuy's Piet also has trim and he uses it to good advantage too.My ferry pilot also said his leg got tired after a while in the air and suggested rudder trim, but then again the rudder in this airplane is installed exactly on centerline with no offset and it may be that a tad of offset may eliminate that easier than a rudder trim mechanism or even a bendable piece of metal on the trailing edge of the rudder.Mike C.? Steve E.? Chuck "Mr. America"? What say about trim?Oscar ZunigaSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 09:33:12 -0700 (PDT)
>Anyone want to comment on the general usefulness of having elevator trim>in one's Piet?I haven't done any X-C flying in my Piet yet, but can tell you what my ferry pilot told me about it after flying a bunch of hours in it. He said Corky had really put a nifty trim setup on it, very useful and effective. I know Mike Cuy's Piet also has trim and he uses it to good advantage too.My ferry pilot also said his leg got tired after a while in the air and suggested rudder trim, but then again the rudder in this airplane is installed exactly on centerline with no offset and it may be that a tad of offset may eliminate that easier than a rudder trim mechanism or even a bendable piece of metal on the trailing edge of the rudder.Mike C.? Steve E.? Chuck "Mr. America"? What say about trim?Oscar ZunigaSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 09:33:12 -0700 (PDT)
Re: Pietenpol-List: long cross country in an Air Camper
Original Posted By: "DJ Vegh"
With the exception of the rare use of a 100% symetrical airfoil (like on alate pitts), every airplane will only be in trim at one airspeed for its CGposition. The 100% symetrical airfoil has no camber, hence no center ofpressure (CP) travel with changes in angle of attack (which is determineddirectly by airspeed). As you add more and more camber, the fore and aftcenter of pressure travel on the wing between high and low AOAs gets greaterand greater.The Taylorcraft uses the NACA 23012 airfoil and does not have as much CPtravel as does the Piet's airfoil which has a tremendous amount of camber.An added trim system would make the aircraft more pilot friendly throughouta large airspeed (AOA) range.However, as the first paragraph says, every airplane will only be in trim atone airspeed for its CG position. If you plan to fly your piet at the sameCG location and at the same speed day in and day out, then the rigging ofthe decalage angle between the wing and the horizontal stabilizer will takecare of the trim. You set these angles at time of rigging, tweaking themthroughout the testing period until you are satisfied the plane can flyhands off at your favorite power setting and AOA.But if you plan to fly the aircraft long hours at many different, wideranging CGs, then a trim system is in order.There is nothing worse than a long flight in an airplane that you can'ttrim.I believe that Mike C. has a simple bungie arrangement to give the stick alittle pull one way or another. This is used in many aircraft types and issufficient.Chris Bobka----- Original Message -----
With the exception of the rare use of a 100% symetrical airfoil (like on alate pitts), every airplane will only be in trim at one airspeed for its CGposition. The 100% symetrical airfoil has no camber, hence no center ofpressure (CP) travel with changes in angle of attack (which is determineddirectly by airspeed). As you add more and more camber, the fore and aftcenter of pressure travel on the wing between high and low AOAs gets greaterand greater.The Taylorcraft uses the NACA 23012 airfoil and does not have as much CPtravel as does the Piet's airfoil which has a tremendous amount of camber.An added trim system would make the aircraft more pilot friendly throughouta large airspeed (AOA) range.However, as the first paragraph says, every airplane will only be in trim atone airspeed for its CG position. If you plan to fly your piet at the sameCG location and at the same speed day in and day out, then the rigging ofthe decalage angle between the wing and the horizontal stabilizer will takecare of the trim. You set these angles at time of rigging, tweaking themthroughout the testing period until you are satisfied the plane can flyhands off at your favorite power setting and AOA.But if you plan to fly the aircraft long hours at many different, wideranging CGs, then a trim system is in order.There is nothing worse than a long flight in an airplane that you can'ttrim.I believe that Mike C. has a simple bungie arrangement to give the stick alittle pull one way or another. This is used in many aircraft types and issufficient.Chris Bobka----- Original Message -----
> Re: Pietenpol-List: long cross country in an Air Camper
Original Posted By: Michael D Cuy
Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By: "Oscar Zuniga"
The max I've been up is about 1:15 and the very slight fwd stick that Ihave to hold does get annoying after awhile. I find that with holding thepressure you kind of lose your touch in that arm. Have to change hands forawhile and shake off the other. I would like to add trim if I didn't haveto cut anything.walt evansNX140DL----- Original Message -----
The max I've been up is about 1:15 and the very slight fwd stick that Ihave to hold does get annoying after awhile. I find that with holding thepressure you kind of lose your touch in that arm. Have to change hands forawhile and shake off the other. I would like to add trim if I didn't haveto cut anything.walt evansNX140DL----- Original Message -----
Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By: Larry Nelson
Re: Pietenpol-List: engine type
Original Posted By: Michael D Cuy
Re: Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By: "Oscar Zuniga"
OscarHow about a brief description of the trim system? Is it similar to Mikes?Dick N.----- Original Message -----
OscarHow about a brief description of the trim system? Is it similar to Mikes?Dick N.----- Original Message -----
Pietenpol-List: trim
Original Posted By: "Carl D. Vought"
Dick asks->How about a brief description of the trim system? Is it similar to Mikes?Edwin (Corky's test pilot) had already written->Corky (the plane I've flown) used a simple rubber bungee cord tied>from two points on the front of the back seat then around the stick.>By moving the rubber cord up and down the stick the amount of pull>on the stick was varied.Oscar ZunigaSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net________________________________________________________________________________Date: 20 Aug 2004 21:47:48 -0000
Dick asks->How about a brief description of the trim system? Is it similar to Mikes?Edwin (Corky's test pilot) had already written->Corky (the plane I've flown) used a simple rubber bungee cord tied>from two points on the front of the back seat then around the stick.>By moving the rubber cord up and down the stick the amount of pull>on the stick was varied.Oscar ZunigaSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net________________________________________________________________________________Date: 20 Aug 2004 21:47:48 -0000