Original Posted By: nle97(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: welding&cables>>Their was discussion awhile back on stainless cable.>many guys agreed that stainless has a drawback in that>it gets brittle and breaks without warning. If you>notice one strand broke, the rest are ready to break.>whereas a galvanized cable will rust, and when it>starts to rust replace it. the rust is an indicator>that it is getting old.>>--- RBush96589(at)aol.com wrote:>> RBush96589(at)aol.com>>>> Thanks for the info on the welding rods. What about>> normalizing a tig weld?>> Ihave read that some people say it should be done>> and others say that it>> actually weakens the weld. Also can any one who has>> already built their>> control systems give me a rough guess as to how much>> cable to buy?I think it>> was Steve E. that said he used 1/8 7-7 stainless>> throughout his>> plane,Ithought I would use the same.>>>> Thanks>>>> Robert Bush>>>>>>>> through>>>> http://www.matronics.com/archives>> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists>>>> Matronics!>>>>>>>>>>>Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.>http://im.yahoo.com>>________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: welding&cables
Pietenpol-List: welding&cables
Original Posted By: del magsam
Subject: Pietenpol-List: welding&cablesThanks for the info on the welding rods. What about normalizing a tig weld? Ihave read that some people say it should be done and others say that it actually weakens the weld. Also can any one who has already built their control systems give me a rough guess as to how much cable to buy?I think it was Steve E. that said he used 1/8 7-7 stainless throughout his plane,Ithought I would use the same. Thanks Robert Bush________________________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:13:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Pietenpol-List: welding&cablesThanks for the info on the welding rods. What about normalizing a tig weld? Ihave read that some people say it should be done and others say that it actually weakens the weld. Also can any one who has already built their control systems give me a rough guess as to how much cable to buy?I think it was Steve E. that said he used 1/8 7-7 stainless throughout his plane,Ithought I would use the same. Thanks Robert Bush________________________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:13:17 -0800 (PST)
Re: Pietenpol-List: welding&cables
Original Posted By: del magsam
God, I hope not! ALL the cables in my 1948 Bellanca are original andstainless. Have never had a problem. All the spokes on my Bicycle arestainless and I have yet to break one in 12 years. Spokes are higherstressed than your control cables. Why would rust tell you that a cable isold? Some area of this country will rust a galvanized cable in months whileother places it might take a couple centuries.ALL generalizations are FALSE including this one!Cy Galley - Editor, B-C Contact!(Click here to visit our Club site at http://www.bellanca-championclub.com)-----Original Message-----
God, I hope not! ALL the cables in my 1948 Bellanca are original andstainless. Have never had a problem. All the spokes on my Bicycle arestainless and I have yet to break one in 12 years. Spokes are higherstressed than your control cables. Why would rust tell you that a cable isold? Some area of this country will rust a galvanized cable in months whileother places it might take a couple centuries.ALL generalizations are FALSE including this one!Cy Galley - Editor, B-C Contact!(Click here to visit our Club site at http://www.bellanca-championclub.com)-----Original Message-----
Re: Pietenpol-List: welding&cables
Original Posted By: "wayne"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: welding&cablesRobert, There was quite a discussion before on welding and whether TIG, MIG, oracetylene was the best. Normalizing was also dicussed. Heli-arc welding (TIG or MIG) is by far the best, but the equipment isvery expensive and far beyond the reach of most homebuilders. This isthe type of welding used by the various aircraft manufacturers in aproduction line situation. The width of the weld is the same as in gaswelding and increased heat stress problems are not a factor. In fact,the opposite is true. Heat during the heli-arc process is morecontrolled and focused on the job at hand while allowing the heat in thearea around the weld to disapate in a more uniform manner. Warpage,although still present, is not as much a problem with heli-arc. I used to work for Mooney and they did not normalize any of their welds. Normalizing helps to reduce stress in the weld area caused by heat andwelding instruction books will tell you that it should be done, but itcommon practice it is not done. While at Mooney, we never had a weldfail. Another advantage to heli-arc welding is that the welding is done usingargon gas which surrounds the arc and keeps out impurities in the air. Whenever you weld, you will introduce foreign particles into the moltenmetal and some of these can be detrimental to the strength of thefinished product. In gas welding, the flame is set in a "nuetralized"form with a soft blue cone over the darker inner flame. This sets theheat at about 5700 or 5800 degrees and will introduce a little carboninto the weld. This is necessary for the strength of the weld and if theflame is too hot (no soft blue cone) you can burn out existing carbonfrom the weld and weaken it. We used nothing but acetylene welding on our project and I have done allthe welding. I'm not a certified welder, but have done a lot of weldingover the years and have never had anything break (knock on wood!). Acetylene welding is not all that hard to learn; it just takes a lot ofpractice. Good welding equipment is very important as the cheaper gearwill not let you keep a constant flame -- the soft blue cone willdisappear, etc. Forming a good constant puddle of molten steel iscritical to insure 100% penetration throughout the weld. I worked for aguy once who had heli-arc equipment and used some rod the he claimed gavea good 90% penetration and that was good enough. It isn't. You want100% throughout. Selecting the correct rod for whatever type of weldingyou do is critical. On airplanes, use the copper coated mild steel rod. The copper coating is used only to protect the rod from corrosion,although they will rust if kept a long time in high humidity. I usuallyuse coat hangers when I weld my car tailpipes and mufflers; they workjust fine and I've never had a tailpipe break (at the weld anyway). I have used Smith welding equipment in the past and fought it all theway. This is the stuff sold at Wag-Aero and such places. I now have myown set which I bought at a discount tool place in San Antonio and amvery happy with it so far. One of my partners who like to buy toys, thelatest and greatest, went and bought a Henrob set. I've used this a lotand it really works great once you get used to it, but I wouldn't spendthe money on it myself. I paid less than half for my set as he did forthe Henrob. I do intend to weld our aluminum fuel tank when we get thatfar and the Henrod will probably be better for aluminum. Aluminum can besuccessfully welded using acetylene, but it is certainly more difficultto say the least. As for control cables, we are going to use stainless steel throughout.The 7X7 is OK for straight runs, but use 7X19 for the cables making asharp bend going over pulleys. 7X19 is much more flexible and that iswhat it was made for. The galvanized cables can rust from the insideout, showing no signs on the outside. This isn't necessarily usual, butI've seen it happen. During annual inspections, it is important to twistall the cables to check for rust inside rather than just running yourhand along, checking for broken strands. Although the aircraftmanufacturers will deliver their planes with galvanized cables installed,they offer stainless steel replacement cables as an option. I alwaysencourage my customers to go with the stainless as they last longer. There is also less problem of broken strands going over the pulleys orthrough fairleads -- at least, that's been my experience. Incidently, inany light plane, a single broken strand of wire in a control cable meansa rejected cable and it needs to be replaced.John LangstonPipe Creek, TXnle97(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: welding&cablesRobert, There was quite a discussion before on welding and whether TIG, MIG, oracetylene was the best. Normalizing was also dicussed. Heli-arc welding (TIG or MIG) is by far the best, but the equipment isvery expensive and far beyond the reach of most homebuilders. This isthe type of welding used by the various aircraft manufacturers in aproduction line situation. The width of the weld is the same as in gaswelding and increased heat stress problems are not a factor. In fact,the opposite is true. Heat during the heli-arc process is morecontrolled and focused on the job at hand while allowing the heat in thearea around the weld to disapate in a more uniform manner. Warpage,although still present, is not as much a problem with heli-arc. I used to work for Mooney and they did not normalize any of their welds. Normalizing helps to reduce stress in the weld area caused by heat andwelding instruction books will tell you that it should be done, but itcommon practice it is not done. While at Mooney, we never had a weldfail. Another advantage to heli-arc welding is that the welding is done usingargon gas which surrounds the arc and keeps out impurities in the air. Whenever you weld, you will introduce foreign particles into the moltenmetal and some of these can be detrimental to the strength of thefinished product. In gas welding, the flame is set in a "nuetralized"form with a soft blue cone over the darker inner flame. This sets theheat at about 5700 or 5800 degrees and will introduce a little carboninto the weld. This is necessary for the strength of the weld and if theflame is too hot (no soft blue cone) you can burn out existing carbonfrom the weld and weaken it. We used nothing but acetylene welding on our project and I have done allthe welding. I'm not a certified welder, but have done a lot of weldingover the years and have never had anything break (knock on wood!). Acetylene welding is not all that hard to learn; it just takes a lot ofpractice. Good welding equipment is very important as the cheaper gearwill not let you keep a constant flame -- the soft blue cone willdisappear, etc. Forming a good constant puddle of molten steel iscritical to insure 100% penetration throughout the weld. I worked for aguy once who had heli-arc equipment and used some rod the he claimed gavea good 90% penetration and that was good enough. It isn't. You want100% throughout. Selecting the correct rod for whatever type of weldingyou do is critical. On airplanes, use the copper coated mild steel rod. The copper coating is used only to protect the rod from corrosion,although they will rust if kept a long time in high humidity. I usuallyuse coat hangers when I weld my car tailpipes and mufflers; they workjust fine and I've never had a tailpipe break (at the weld anyway). I have used Smith welding equipment in the past and fought it all theway. This is the stuff sold at Wag-Aero and such places. I now have myown set which I bought at a discount tool place in San Antonio and amvery happy with it so far. One of my partners who like to buy toys, thelatest and greatest, went and bought a Henrob set. I've used this a lotand it really works great once you get used to it, but I wouldn't spendthe money on it myself. I paid less than half for my set as he did forthe Henrob. I do intend to weld our aluminum fuel tank when we get thatfar and the Henrod will probably be better for aluminum. Aluminum can besuccessfully welded using acetylene, but it is certainly more difficultto say the least. As for control cables, we are going to use stainless steel throughout.The 7X7 is OK for straight runs, but use 7X19 for the cables making asharp bend going over pulleys. 7X19 is much more flexible and that iswhat it was made for. The galvanized cables can rust from the insideout, showing no signs on the outside. This isn't necessarily usual, butI've seen it happen. During annual inspections, it is important to twistall the cables to check for rust inside rather than just running yourhand along, checking for broken strands. Although the aircraftmanufacturers will deliver their planes with galvanized cables installed,they offer stainless steel replacement cables as an option. I alwaysencourage my customers to go with the stainless as they last longer. There is also less problem of broken strands going over the pulleys orthrough fairleads -- at least, that's been my experience. Incidently, inany light plane, a single broken strand of wire in a control cable meansa rejected cable and it needs to be replaced.John LangstonPipe Creek, TXnle97(at)juno.com ________________________________________________________________________________
> Re: Pietenpol-List: welding&cables
Original Posted By: "William C. Beerman"
Hi John....I've just gotten my plans and look forward to starting this project. Thanks for posting one of the best written most informative letters I've seen posted on the web for some time. You answered a lot of questions I was about to ask.Eric>From: nle97(at)juno.com>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: welding&cables>Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:53:32 -0600>>>Robert,> There was quite a discussion before on welding and whether TIG, >MIG, or>acetylene was the best. Normalizing was also dicussed.> Heli-arc welding (TIG or MIG) is by far the best, but the >equipment is>very expensive and far beyond the reach of most homebuilders. This is>the type of welding used by the various aircraft manufacturers in a>production line situation. The width of the weld is the same as in gas>welding and increased heat stress problems are not a factor. In fact,>the opposite is true. Heat during the heli-arc process is more>controlled and focused on the job at hand while allowing the heat in the>area around the weld to disapate in a more uniform manner. Warpage,>although still present, is not as much a problem with heli-arc.> I used to work for Mooney and they did not normalize any of their >welds.> Normalizing helps to reduce stress in the weld area caused by heat and>welding instruction books will tell you that it should be done, but it>common practice it is not done. While at Mooney, we never had a weld>fail.> Another advantage to heli-arc welding is that the welding is done >using>argon gas which surrounds the arc and keeps out impurities in the air.>Whenever you weld, you will introduce foreign particles into the molten>metal and some of these can be detrimental to the strength of the>finished product. In gas welding, the flame is set in a "nuetralized">form with a soft blue cone over the darker inner flame. This sets the>heat at about 5700 or 5800 degrees and will introduce a little carbon>into the weld. This is necessary for the strength of the weld and if the>flame is too hot (no soft blue cone) you can burn out existing carbon>from the weld and weaken it.> We used nothing but acetylene welding on our project and I have >done all>the welding. I'm not a certified welder, but have done a lot of welding>over the years and have never had anything break (knock on wood!).>Acetylene welding is not all that hard to learn; it just takes a lot of>practice. Good welding equipment is very important as the cheaper gear>will not let you keep a constant flame -- the soft blue cone will>disappear, etc. Forming a good constant puddle of molten steel is>critical to insure 100% penetration throughout the weld. I worked for a>guy once who had heli-arc equipment and used some rod the he claimed gave>a good 90% penetration and that was good enough. It isn't. You want>100% throughout. Selecting the correct rod for whatever type of welding>you do is critical. On airplanes, use the copper coated mild steel rod.>The copper coating is used only to protect the rod from corrosion,>although they will rust if kept a long time in high humidity. I usually>use coat hangers when I weld my car tailpipes and mufflers; they work>just fine and I've never had a tailpipe break (at the weld anyway).> I have used Smith welding equipment in the past and fought it all >the>way. This is the stuff sold at Wag-Aero and such places. I now have my>own set which I bought at a discount tool place in San Antonio and am>very happy with it so far. One of my partners who like to buy toys, the>latest and greatest, went and bought a Henrob set. I've used this a lot>and it really works great once you get used to it, but I wouldn't spend>the money on it myself. I paid less than half for my set as he did for>the Henrob. I do intend to weld our aluminum fuel tank when we get that>far and the Henrod will probably be better for aluminum. Aluminum can be>successfully welded using acetylene, but it is certainly more difficult>to say the least.> As for control cables, we are going to use stainless steel >throughout.>The 7X7 is OK for straight runs, but use 7X19 for the cables making a>sharp bend going over pulleys. 7X19 is much more flexible and that is>what it was made for. The galvanized cables can rust from the inside>out, showing no signs on the outside. This isn't necessarily usual, but>I've seen it happen. During annual inspections, it is important to twist>all the cables to check for rust inside rather than just running your>hand along, checking for broken strands. Although the aircraft>manufacturers will deliver their planes with galvanized cables installed,>they offer stainless steel replacement cables as an option. I always>encourage my customers to go with the stainless as they last longer.>There is also less problem of broken strands going over the pulleys or>through fairleads -- at least, that's been my experience. Incidently, in>any light plane, a single broken strand of wire in a control cable means>a rejected cable and it needs to be replaced.>>>John Langston>Pipe Creek, TX>nle97(at)juno.com>>________________________________________________________________________________
Hi John....I've just gotten my plans and look forward to starting this project. Thanks for posting one of the best written most informative letters I've seen posted on the web for some time. You answered a lot of questions I was about to ask.Eric>From: nle97(at)juno.com>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: welding&cables>Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:53:32 -0600>>>Robert,> There was quite a discussion before on welding and whether TIG, >MIG, or>acetylene was the best. Normalizing was also dicussed.> Heli-arc welding (TIG or MIG) is by far the best, but the >equipment is>very expensive and far beyond the reach of most homebuilders. This is>the type of welding used by the various aircraft manufacturers in a>production line situation. The width of the weld is the same as in gas>welding and increased heat stress problems are not a factor. In fact,>the opposite is true. Heat during the heli-arc process is more>controlled and focused on the job at hand while allowing the heat in the>area around the weld to disapate in a more uniform manner. Warpage,>although still present, is not as much a problem with heli-arc.> I used to work for Mooney and they did not normalize any of their >welds.> Normalizing helps to reduce stress in the weld area caused by heat and>welding instruction books will tell you that it should be done, but it>common practice it is not done. While at Mooney, we never had a weld>fail.> Another advantage to heli-arc welding is that the welding is done >using>argon gas which surrounds the arc and keeps out impurities in the air.>Whenever you weld, you will introduce foreign particles into the molten>metal and some of these can be detrimental to the strength of the>finished product. In gas welding, the flame is set in a "nuetralized">form with a soft blue cone over the darker inner flame. This sets the>heat at about 5700 or 5800 degrees and will introduce a little carbon>into the weld. This is necessary for the strength of the weld and if the>flame is too hot (no soft blue cone) you can burn out existing carbon>from the weld and weaken it.> We used nothing but acetylene welding on our project and I have >done all>the welding. I'm not a certified welder, but have done a lot of welding>over the years and have never had anything break (knock on wood!).>Acetylene welding is not all that hard to learn; it just takes a lot of>practice. Good welding equipment is very important as the cheaper gear>will not let you keep a constant flame -- the soft blue cone will>disappear, etc. Forming a good constant puddle of molten steel is>critical to insure 100% penetration throughout the weld. I worked for a>guy once who had heli-arc equipment and used some rod the he claimed gave>a good 90% penetration and that was good enough. It isn't. You want>100% throughout. Selecting the correct rod for whatever type of welding>you do is critical. On airplanes, use the copper coated mild steel rod.>The copper coating is used only to protect the rod from corrosion,>although they will rust if kept a long time in high humidity. I usually>use coat hangers when I weld my car tailpipes and mufflers; they work>just fine and I've never had a tailpipe break (at the weld anyway).> I have used Smith welding equipment in the past and fought it all >the>way. This is the stuff sold at Wag-Aero and such places. I now have my>own set which I bought at a discount tool place in San Antonio and am>very happy with it so far. One of my partners who like to buy toys, the>latest and greatest, went and bought a Henrob set. I've used this a lot>and it really works great once you get used to it, but I wouldn't spend>the money on it myself. I paid less than half for my set as he did for>the Henrob. I do intend to weld our aluminum fuel tank when we get that>far and the Henrod will probably be better for aluminum. Aluminum can be>successfully welded using acetylene, but it is certainly more difficult>to say the least.> As for control cables, we are going to use stainless steel >throughout.>The 7X7 is OK for straight runs, but use 7X19 for the cables making a>sharp bend going over pulleys. 7X19 is much more flexible and that is>what it was made for. The galvanized cables can rust from the inside>out, showing no signs on the outside. This isn't necessarily usual, but>I've seen it happen. During annual inspections, it is important to twist>all the cables to check for rust inside rather than just running your>hand along, checking for broken strands. Although the aircraft>manufacturers will deliver their planes with galvanized cables installed,>they offer stainless steel replacement cables as an option. I always>encourage my customers to go with the stainless as they last longer.>There is also less problem of broken strands going over the pulleys or>through fairleads -- at least, that's been my experience. Incidently, in>any light plane, a single broken strand of wire in a control cable means>a rejected cable and it needs to be replaced.>>>John Langston>Pipe Creek, TX>nle97(at)juno.com>>________________________________________________________________________________