Original Posted By: kgardner(at)odu.edu
Owen,Actually, I was hoping for some comment on this method. I haven't started on a tube airframe but have used this method on small metal parts. Would it be unacceptable? I don't mind getting an OxyA setup (another tool for my collection) and learning but if I already have something that works...Just looking for insight from those who have more experience than me.Robert HainesMurphysboro, Illinois******It sounds like you are recommending thisfor something like those control-system partsdiscussed in recent messages, rather thanfor the airframe itself. Did I get this right?Owen Davies******________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Cutout vs. Flaps
RE: Pietenpol-List: Cutout vs. Flaps
Original Posted By: "Michael Brusilow"
03/07/2001 10:09:36 AMGood Morning List!I read with interest the couple of postings on this subject & Mike Cuy'scomments about his experiences flying both types (flap v. cutout) pricked athought in my brain (a dangerous thing). Namely, does anyone know whetheror not any Piet has ever been tested in a wind tunnel? This occured to mebecause my university operates a full-scale one at NASA-Langley. Recentlythey tested the props that are going into the EAA's 1903 Wright Flyerreproduction that is going to fly, hopefully, at Kitty Hawk on Dec. 17.2003. I was curious, anyone think that someone with some pull couldpersuade the EAA to have ODU to run a couple of Piets through theirfacility? I bet any number of folks would 'volunteer' to get their planesdown here if it could be set up. Maybe as a tie-in with the Air-Venture2001 theme of 'Aviation Firsts'?What do ya'll think?Kip GardnerLaboratory Manager, ODUDept. of Ocean, Earth & Atmospheric Sciences4600 Elkhorn AvenueNorfolk, VA 23529(757)683-5654Bumper Sticker of the Week:"Don't Drink and Park - 'Accidents' Cause People"________________________________________________________________________________
03/07/2001 10:09:36 AMGood Morning List!I read with interest the couple of postings on this subject & Mike Cuy'scomments about his experiences flying both types (flap v. cutout) pricked athought in my brain (a dangerous thing). Namely, does anyone know whetheror not any Piet has ever been tested in a wind tunnel? This occured to mebecause my university operates a full-scale one at NASA-Langley. Recentlythey tested the props that are going into the EAA's 1903 Wright Flyerreproduction that is going to fly, hopefully, at Kitty Hawk on Dec. 17.2003. I was curious, anyone think that someone with some pull couldpersuade the EAA to have ODU to run a couple of Piets through theirfacility? I bet any number of folks would 'volunteer' to get their planesdown here if it could be set up. Maybe as a tie-in with the Air-Venture2001 theme of 'Aviation Firsts'?What do ya'll think?Kip GardnerLaboratory Manager, ODUDept. of Ocean, Earth & Atmospheric Sciences4600 Elkhorn AvenueNorfolk, VA 23529(757)683-5654Bumper Sticker of the Week:"Don't Drink and Park - 'Accidents' Cause People"________________________________________________________________________________
Fw: Pietenpol-List: Wives Tales about Wing Cut-outs
Original Posted By: Christian Bobka
Pietenpol-List: Tales about Wing Cut-outs>> Group- We've discussed the pro's and con's of the center> section flop vs. a curved wing cutout a few times and here is> my take on it. Either one is perfectly fine. In flying both types> I can detect no difference in performance I have absolutely no adverse> performance or handling issues flying with the curved cutout.>In flying a Piet with a flop at Brodhead, I noticed> that with it "unlatched" in flight, it has no tendency to lift or move.> Mike C.Mike C is absolutely correct. Flight proformance with either is the same. AsMike, I have flown both types. Many times I have flown with the flopunlached. It stays right there, no difference, but if you taxi ( slow )with a bit of a tailwind, the flop will come up. If you ever see an inflight photo of a cutout Piet with the pilot wearing along scarf, the scarf is pointing foward.Mike B Piet N687 MB ( Mr Sam )________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:32:19 -0500
Pietenpol-List: Tales about Wing Cut-outs>> Group- We've discussed the pro's and con's of the center> section flop vs. a curved wing cutout a few times and here is> my take on it. Either one is perfectly fine. In flying both types> I can detect no difference in performance I have absolutely no adverse> performance or handling issues flying with the curved cutout.>In flying a Piet with a flop at Brodhead, I noticed> that with it "unlatched" in flight, it has no tendency to lift or move.> Mike C.Mike C is absolutely correct. Flight proformance with either is the same. AsMike, I have flown both types. Many times I have flown with the flopunlached. It stays right there, no difference, but if you taxi ( slow )with a bit of a tailwind, the flop will come up. If you ever see an inflight photo of a cutout Piet with the pilot wearing along scarf, the scarf is pointing foward.Mike B Piet N687 MB ( Mr Sam )________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:32:19 -0500
RE: Pietenpol-List: Cutout vs. Flaps
Original Posted By: kgardner(at)odu.edu
Hey everyone I've always had some questions on the flap vs cutout issue too. I've never even flown in a Piet but I understand that they're notoriously tail heavy when light engines are used and BHP said that the flap adds considerable lift. So it seems that a cutout would remove lift from the aft edge of the wing reducing lift and agravating the tail heavy situation. Is this true or am I barking at the moon???? my other question is: with the wing canted back to compensate for lighter engines does the cutout increase visability forward over the wing to any extent or just staight up. If someone could please answer these two questions it would help me decide which way to go. If it dosen't increase visabbility to any greatextent I think I'll go with the flap. Thanks Ed G.>From: Jeane Tomblin >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>To: "INTERNET:pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com" >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cut out verses flopp in center cection>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 21:51:24 -0500>>>>Group,>I really like the look of the piet's with the cut out in the center cection> but BHP's warning in the flying and Gliding(1933 page 40) about using >the>flop to preserve goog climb performance bothers me. Is there really a need>for the flop and does it improve performance over a cut out found on>biblanes of the period?Can you get in and out of the aft cockpit without>it?>>Gene Tomblin>St. Louis MO.>>________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Cutout vs. Flaps
Hey everyone I've always had some questions on the flap vs cutout issue too. I've never even flown in a Piet but I understand that they're notoriously tail heavy when light engines are used and BHP said that the flap adds considerable lift. So it seems that a cutout would remove lift from the aft edge of the wing reducing lift and agravating the tail heavy situation. Is this true or am I barking at the moon???? my other question is: with the wing canted back to compensate for lighter engines does the cutout increase visability forward over the wing to any extent or just staight up. If someone could please answer these two questions it would help me decide which way to go. If it dosen't increase visabbility to any greatextent I think I'll go with the flap. Thanks Ed G.>From: Jeane Tomblin >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>To: "INTERNET:pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com" >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cut out verses flopp in center cection>Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 21:51:24 -0500>>>>Group,>I really like the look of the piet's with the cut out in the center cection> but BHP's warning in the flying and Gliding(1933 page 40) about using >the>flop to preserve goog climb performance bothers me. Is there really a need>for the flop and does it improve performance over a cut out found on>biblanes of the period?Can you get in and out of the aft cockpit without>it?>>Gene Tomblin>St. Louis MO.>>________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Cutout vs. Flaps
Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing center section cutouts.
Original Posted By: "Larry Williams"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing center section cutouts.Mr Wizzard, I am 192# 68 in and near 78 years young. I have designed and welded a step to be bolted on fuse build-up to help get into the plane. Now, on the cutout, my plan is not only a curved cutout of the center section but to let the cutout extend to either side taking in about 5 or 6 inches of the wings measured at the trailing edge. This was done in many of the early biplanes and they seemed to fly OK. It will sure facilitate the awkward entrance and exit of the Pietenpol performance. I just can't conceive climbing aboard with my big a--. unless there be a paid audience.Corky in La on a crash diet.________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing center section cutouts.Mr Wizzard, I am 192# 68 in and near 78 years young. I have designed and welded a step to be bolted on fuse build-up to help get into the plane. Now, on the cutout, my plan is not only a curved cutout of the center section but to let the cutout extend to either side taking in about 5 or 6 inches of the wings measured at the trailing edge. This was done in many of the early biplanes and they seemed to fly OK. It will sure facilitate the awkward entrance and exit of the Pietenpol performance. I just can't conceive climbing aboard with my big a--. unless there be a paid audience.Corky in La on a crash diet.________________________________________________________________________________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Cutout vs. Flaps
Original Posted By: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
03/07/2001 03:08:06 PMChris,Well, I'm not a student, but I work here on campus & am somewhat known tothe people who did the Wright Flyer prop tests. As I've mentioned before,I'm moving up to Mike Cuy's turf in a couple of months, but if you havesome specific idea, maybe I can get someone here to bite. Since these guysalready have a relationship with EAA, my thought was working a projectthrough them, which might make covering costs a little easier. It's alsopossible that the guys here have a grad student who might be interested indoing some analysis of 'vintage aeronautics', but I don't know offhand.I'm willing to help as much as my schedule & plans allow, but I need toknow what you actually want done. I still think getting a whole plane (or acouple of different ones) would be really cool & would pay big dividends tothe whole vintage aircraft community.BOBKA(at)compuserve.com@matronics.com on 03/07/2001 12:32:19 PMPlease respond to pietenpol-list(at)matronics.comSent by: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.comcc:Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Cutout vs. FlapsIf we can't get a full scale pietenpol into a wind tunnel, maybe someoneout there can take a full or scale airfoil section and run the tests? Wecould supply the model of the airfoil. Any one studying aerodynamics at auniversity?Chris BobkaTCRegards,Kip GardnerLaboratory Manager, ODUDept. of Ocean, Earth & Atmospheric Sciences4600 Elkhorn AvenueNorfolk, VA 23529(757)683-5654Bumper Sticker of the Week:"Don't Drink and Park - 'Accidents' Cause People"________________________________________________________________________________
03/07/2001 03:08:06 PMChris,Well, I'm not a student, but I work here on campus & am somewhat known tothe people who did the Wright Flyer prop tests. As I've mentioned before,I'm moving up to Mike Cuy's turf in a couple of months, but if you havesome specific idea, maybe I can get someone here to bite. Since these guysalready have a relationship with EAA, my thought was working a projectthrough them, which might make covering costs a little easier. It's alsopossible that the guys here have a grad student who might be interested indoing some analysis of 'vintage aeronautics', but I don't know offhand.I'm willing to help as much as my schedule & plans allow, but I need toknow what you actually want done. I still think getting a whole plane (or acouple of different ones) would be really cool & would pay big dividends tothe whole vintage aircraft community.BOBKA(at)compuserve.com@matronics.com on 03/07/2001 12:32:19 PMPlease respond to pietenpol-list(at)matronics.comSent by: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.comcc:Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Cutout vs. FlapsIf we can't get a full scale pietenpol into a wind tunnel, maybe someoneout there can take a full or scale airfoil section and run the tests? Wecould supply the model of the airfoil. Any one studying aerodynamics at auniversity?Chris BobkaTCRegards,Kip GardnerLaboratory Manager, ODUDept. of Ocean, Earth & Atmospheric Sciences4600 Elkhorn AvenueNorfolk, VA 23529(757)683-5654Bumper Sticker of the Week:"Don't Drink and Park - 'Accidents' Cause People"________________________________________________________________________________