Original Posted By: "Gary Meadows"
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Maybe a little helpPietenpolers,I had a little problem resolved today and the experience surrounding it may be worth telling and worth your time reading. If you are one of those few who know it ALL please use your delete key NOW.Last spring after buying my plans from Don and ordering my 2 X 6s for lumber I contacted the FAA office in Baton Rouge for their procedures of checks and inspections as I presumed they were different from those I had used when building a Mini Plane in the late 50s. They informed me that they no longer scheduled inspections the old way and that I would need to contact a DAR for that service. I contacted the nearest DAR by phone and was advised he would be in touch. Several months after NO TOUCH I went to his place of business, met him, discussed my Piet,which he had never heard of, and of course his prices for his sacrifices of inspections. Needless to say I was IMPRESSED but not the way he intended it to be. Around the second week of Sept as I was writing a check to our uncle for a tax estimate it hit me. WHY should I pay someone outside for services I pay taxes for within the FAA system. I called Baton Rouge and talked with Lisa. She could not have been nicer, even was familiar with a Pietenpol. I told her my thinking and she put me through to a field man. He said he would be glad to inspect my bird, just give him about a month lead time. Boy I felt good. Things have been relaxed along that line until I talked with several builders recently on the subject of a builders log. I never heard of such a thing but as one builder suggested we had better begin some creative writing. Today I decided to call my man in Baton Rouge and feel him out on the subject. Yes, as you can guess, he is gone. I was refered to another agent who listened patiently and seemed somewhat sympathetic. He told me he would ask his supervisor if he could be assigned to my project and that I would here from him in the near future. I felt good again. One hour later my bride called me to the phone from the yard. It was Jim at the FAA office in Baton Rouge. His supervisor had assigned to my plane. The inspector in Sep had told me that he only wanted to see it when it was ready for flight with cowl off and inspection plates removed. I asked Jim about this and he wants to see it naked before covering but complete and again before flight. He is not familiar with the Piet so I promised him a set of plans and pictures for him to read and see. Boy, I'm happy again.These experiences show that the FAA has no standard procedure of inspections. Each inspector seems to set his own procedures. Gary, he does want a chronological log. Can be tied in with photos. He was particularly positive that I prove the 51% rule. This may have wasted a lot of your time for having read it but it might help several of you who may have been in the FAA dark as I was and am. Sooooo take it and go.Corky in happyland.________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Maybe a little help
Re: Pietenpol-List: Maybe a little help
Original Posted By: JOEL CARROLL
Corky, Thanks for the heads-up, Corky, that was not wasted time at all! Of all the building matters that come up, the documentation area seems to be the least discussed. I've been just building away assuming that when the time comes for the feds to bless my ship, that I'll have figured it out by then, and that good things will happen. I haven't been diligent in my builders log, but I have taken scads of pictures, I should be able to caption those, and even estimate time and construct a passable log. It's pretty funny hearing the 51% rule brought up in reference to a Piet. Heck, I think it's more like the 200% rule. I'll have built two before I finish the one! Thanks again, Gary Busily writing notes in TX....________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 13:53:28 -0700 (PDT)
Corky, Thanks for the heads-up, Corky, that was not wasted time at all! Of all the building matters that come up, the documentation area seems to be the least discussed. I've been just building away assuming that when the time comes for the feds to bless my ship, that I'll have figured it out by then, and that good things will happen. I haven't been diligent in my builders log, but I have taken scads of pictures, I should be able to caption those, and even estimate time and construct a passable log. It's pretty funny hearing the 51% rule brought up in reference to a Piet. Heck, I think it's more like the 200% rule. I'll have built two before I finish the one! Thanks again, Gary Busily writing notes in TX....________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 13:53:28 -0700 (PDT)
Re: Pietenpol-List: Maybe a little help
Original Posted By: "JOEL CARROLL"
I would have my friend call Earl Lawrence EAA VP of Government Programs. Heand I just had this conversation less than 30 minutes ago. The inspectormust issue airworthiness. He may make the testing so difficult that one cannot fly. Call Earl at 888-EAA-INFO extension 6522 and ask for his help ifyour friend is an EAA member.----- Original Message -----
I would have my friend call Earl Lawrence EAA VP of Government Programs. Heand I just had this conversation less than 30 minutes ago. The inspectormust issue airworthiness. He may make the testing so difficult that one cannot fly. Call Earl at 888-EAA-INFO extension 6522 and ask for his help ifyour friend is an EAA member.----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Maybe a little help
Original Posted By: Dmott9(at)aol.com
05/08/2001 05:47:32 PMCorky, et al,If I remember correctly, there are good articles covering documentationissues and dealing with DAR's &/or FAA reps. in the member's section of theEAA web site. I remember reading somewhere that hanging on to things likethe invoices for raw materials is useful and one guy I talked to said thatdocumentation can be as simple as keeping a looseleaf notebook where youwrite in things like:'mm/dd/yy: Worked 2 hrs. building wing ribs.'If you have pictures I imagine you could cook up the written documentationto go with it.I agree with Gary, invoking the 51% rule for a plans-built aircraft is alittle silly, but wasn't Corky spouting off about those 'WYB's" just theother day? Gotta let those boys earn their pay somehow
.I know it's a pain, but I'm a scientist, I have to document EVERYTHING.Cheers!Kip Gardner________________________________________________________________________________
05/08/2001 05:47:32 PMCorky, et al,If I remember correctly, there are good articles covering documentationissues and dealing with DAR's &/or FAA reps. in the member's section of theEAA web site. I remember reading somewhere that hanging on to things likethe invoices for raw materials is useful and one guy I talked to said thatdocumentation can be as simple as keeping a looseleaf notebook where youwrite in things like:'mm/dd/yy: Worked 2 hrs. building wing ribs.'If you have pictures I imagine you could cook up the written documentationto go with it.I agree with Gary, invoking the 51% rule for a plans-built aircraft is alittle silly, but wasn't Corky spouting off about those 'WYB's" just theother day? Gotta let those boys earn their pay somehow
.I know it's a pain, but I'm a scientist, I have to document EVERYTHING.Cheers!Kip Gardner________________________________________________________________________________Re: Pietenpol-List: Maybe a little help
Original Posted By: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Maybe a little helpIn a message dated 05/08/2001 3:15:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Isablcorky(at)aol.com writes:>I'm glad you relayed this. I've heard there was a "covering" off inspection as well as the final inspection. Also, I learned from reading and hearing from Steve Eldredge that if you are using the NX numbering on the tail, you DO NOT need the 2" high EXPERIMENTAL lettering on the side. The "X" denotes Experimental !. Lots of other "funny" rules and regs to follow too. Keep building - I can't wait to see your finished plane FLY !________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Maybe a little helpIn a message dated 05/08/2001 3:15:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Isablcorky(at)aol.com writes:>I'm glad you relayed this. I've heard there was a "covering" off inspection as well as the final inspection. Also, I learned from reading and hearing from Steve Eldredge that if you are using the NX numbering on the tail, you DO NOT need the 2" high EXPERIMENTAL lettering on the side. The "X" denotes Experimental !. Lots of other "funny" rules and regs to follow too. Keep building - I can't wait to see your finished plane FLY !________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Maybe a little help
Original Posted By: TomTravis(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Maybe a little helpI can't wait either cause I don't have a clue as to how much time I have left. I live everyday by the 7th cardinal principal of education, " the worthy use of leisure time"Corky, fixing he and his bride some fresh La spec trout almondine tonite.________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Maybe a little helpI can't wait either cause I don't have a clue as to how much time I have left. I live everyday by the 7th cardinal principal of education, " the worthy use of leisure time"Corky, fixing he and his bride some fresh La spec trout almondine tonite.________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Maybe a little help
Original Posted By: "Ignitor"
Re: Pietenpol-List: Maybe a little help
Original Posted By: Ignitor
Chris,Ooooh, boy, do you know how to hurt somebody.But it's a tough job.... somebody's got to do it.Rodgerstill building----- Original Message -----
Chris,Ooooh, boy, do you know how to hurt somebody.But it's a tough job.... somebody's got to do it.Rodgerstill building----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Maybe a little help
Original Posted By: "rod wooller"
Chris, Thanks for the helpful links - I'll print those off asap. The good news is that I have kept every receipt, and I have something like 60-70 digital photos worth of documentation so far. I have a log that's a little out of date, but that will change....Thanks,Gary________________________________________________________________________________
Chris, Thanks for the helpful links - I'll print those off asap. The good news is that I have kept every receipt, and I have something like 60-70 digital photos worth of documentation so far. I have a log that's a little out of date, but that will change....Thanks,Gary________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Maybe a little help
Original Posted By:
----- Original Message -----
----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Maybe a little help
Original Posted By: Michael D Cuy
Re: Pietenpol-List: FAA Highway Robery
Original Posted By: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Gee Mike, Ahh feel yore pain..... A nail hit squarely upon the head!! If we could only do that with some members of the FAA!! Anyway, I thought they had this shiney new budget, with lots of money that WE'VE paid in over the years! Well, if the Feds can't/won't handle us, and since aircraft homebuilding is absolutely mushrooming, then we should be allowed to become a self-policing fraternity like Amateur Radio is. Volunteers there do the actual testing, and it comes at a very cheap price. They could put in some regulations eliminating legal liability for the inspection, and then the inspectors wouldn't have it hanging out there. The EAA could become the governing body over all this, do a better job and safety would improve at a greatly reduced cost. Things usually improve when the Feds aren't involved. If hams can do it, we could too! Yeah, I know someone is gonna whine about airplanes aren't radios they're more dangerous and people could die. But the concept could be the same. Besides, in the end, safety is really up to each individual builder, not the Feds. They won't die if you crash. Mike, way to go, maybe we need to stir up some discontent on the other groups as well! Gary Meadows Building and logging the time in Texas________________________________________________________________________________
Gee Mike, Ahh feel yore pain..... A nail hit squarely upon the head!! If we could only do that with some members of the FAA!! Anyway, I thought they had this shiney new budget, with lots of money that WE'VE paid in over the years! Well, if the Feds can't/won't handle us, and since aircraft homebuilding is absolutely mushrooming, then we should be allowed to become a self-policing fraternity like Amateur Radio is. Volunteers there do the actual testing, and it comes at a very cheap price. They could put in some regulations eliminating legal liability for the inspection, and then the inspectors wouldn't have it hanging out there. The EAA could become the governing body over all this, do a better job and safety would improve at a greatly reduced cost. Things usually improve when the Feds aren't involved. If hams can do it, we could too! Yeah, I know someone is gonna whine about airplanes aren't radios they're more dangerous and people could die. But the concept could be the same. Besides, in the end, safety is really up to each individual builder, not the Feds. They won't die if you crash. Mike, way to go, maybe we need to stir up some discontent on the other groups as well! Gary Meadows Building and logging the time in Texas________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: FAA Highway Robery
Original Posted By: kgardner(at)odu.edu
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: FAA Highway RoberyNow Boys,I've been known to throw a few negatives in the direction of Washington, HOWEVER,since yesterday and talking with my new found friend Jim in Baton Rouge who will do my inspections PLEASE get off the Feds a-- UNTIL I get in the air. Bet none of you would ever dream of something like that coming fromCorky in beautiful federally regulated La________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: FAA Highway RoberyNow Boys,I've been known to throw a few negatives in the direction of Washington, HOWEVER,since yesterday and talking with my new found friend Jim in Baton Rouge who will do my inspections PLEASE get off the Feds a-- UNTIL I get in the air. Bet none of you would ever dream of something like that coming fromCorky in beautiful federally regulated La________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: FAA Highway Robery
Original Posted By: jared wilkinson
05/09/2001 05:24:24 PMGary,I certainly agree that volunteer, EAA-affilitaed inspectors would be a goodway to get this whole issue resolved in a way that would both promotesafety and make life easier for homebuilders. People have died becauselawyers screwed up, but you don't hear about a Federal Lawyer-Policingagency doing anything - they police themselves through their BarAssociations (now THERE's a scary thought)! Same goes for a whole host ofprofessional and recreational groups.Maybe we need to have some agitation to get this issue tackled along withthe Sport-Pilot regulations - in my mind the two sort of go together.Given that FAA apparently doesn't really care a rats-ass about doing theirjob when it comes to homebuilts, let's turn it over to an organization thatDOES care! Heck, I'd even be willing to reimburse a volunteer forout-of-pocket expenses if it meant that someone who knew and cared aboutwhat I was doing inspected & signed off my work.Sounds like an issue to bring up with the appropriate EAA reps to me.Cheers!Kip Gardner________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 14:27:08 -0700 (PDT)
05/09/2001 05:24:24 PMGary,I certainly agree that volunteer, EAA-affilitaed inspectors would be a goodway to get this whole issue resolved in a way that would both promotesafety and make life easier for homebuilders. People have died becauselawyers screwed up, but you don't hear about a Federal Lawyer-Policingagency doing anything - they police themselves through their BarAssociations (now THERE's a scary thought)! Same goes for a whole host ofprofessional and recreational groups.Maybe we need to have some agitation to get this issue tackled along withthe Sport-Pilot regulations - in my mind the two sort of go together.Given that FAA apparently doesn't really care a rats-ass about doing theirjob when it comes to homebuilts, let's turn it over to an organization thatDOES care! Heck, I'd even be willing to reimburse a volunteer forout-of-pocket expenses if it meant that someone who knew and cared aboutwhat I was doing inspected & signed off my work.Sounds like an issue to bring up with the appropriate EAA reps to me.Cheers!Kip Gardner________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 14:27:08 -0700 (PDT)