Original Posted By: Leo Powning
I have a glue question that Tony B.'s books couldn't answer. I havebuilt wooden truss ribs using 50/50 mix epoxy (T-88? I can't rememberthe name). Good stuff but its expensive. I also build cabinets andhave always use Elmers Wood Glue / "yellow glue" and the joints arestronger than the wood (of course, this requires a clean joint lineand adequate clamping during cure).I don't have a good background for what is appropriate in aircraft, isElmers OK or is it a NO-NO? Does it fail under the vibration, reactwith the covering chemicals, or age poorly or does is work fine andlast a long time?HELPRobert HainesMurphysboro, Illinois________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 07:00:48 -0800 (PST)
Pietenpol-List: Glues
Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
Original Posted By: Merrill
Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
Original Posted By: "Rodger & Betty Childs"
Robert, I'm right there with Leo on the adhesives to use. I also use T-88, and I know a lot of other guys on the list are too. I also know there are folks using Resorcinol. I do know that T-88 is easy to work with, it has good gap-filling qualities, and is STRONG! I have heard it said that it softens some with heat, but I think we're talking heat like you wouldn't see in flight. I have heard a lot good about Resorcinol, it's MIL-spec and used on certificated aircraft, it's good stuff as well, I just don't have any experience with it. There are some other adhesives out there, but with these two to choose from, I don't see any reason to try anything else. You don't want to have to worry your glue joints when you getting bounced around in turbulence!Good Luck adn Happy Building!!Gary MeadowsSpring, TX________________________________________________________________________________
Robert, I'm right there with Leo on the adhesives to use. I also use T-88, and I know a lot of other guys on the list are too. I also know there are folks using Resorcinol. I do know that T-88 is easy to work with, it has good gap-filling qualities, and is STRONG! I have heard it said that it softens some with heat, but I think we're talking heat like you wouldn't see in flight. I have heard a lot good about Resorcinol, it's MIL-spec and used on certificated aircraft, it's good stuff as well, I just don't have any experience with it. There are some other adhesives out there, but with these two to choose from, I don't see any reason to try anything else. You don't want to have to worry your glue joints when you getting bounced around in turbulence!Good Luck adn Happy Building!!Gary MeadowsSpring, TX________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Glues
Original Posted By: Michael D Cuy
Robert,Fokker used casein glue on his early a/c of WWI fame which is essentiallyElmers White glue. And DeHavilland used casein glue as well on theirMosquitobombers in WWII and it held up well to the vibration of twin Merlins andGerman 88's but when they sent them to the South Pacific the humidity causedthe glue to fail after a while.But I would be very leery of using the Elmers Yellow Glue in a Piet today.After all, the life expectancy of a Piet is way longer than either theFokkeror the Mosquito in their day was expected to be.We have purchased 4 qts of the T-88 glue so far and have used only 3 qtsand about 2 oz of the fourth and we are about 85% finished. So the cost hasbeen only about $100 for the T-88. The cost of the spars FAR exceeds thatand the paint is sure to be way more as well.There are other glues but T-88 is hard to beat for ease of use and since itis gap filling, beats the heck out of resorcinal glue as far as I amconcerned.Rodger ChildsPiet in progress________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 10:42:31 -0500
Robert,Fokker used casein glue on his early a/c of WWI fame which is essentiallyElmers White glue. And DeHavilland used casein glue as well on theirMosquitobombers in WWII and it held up well to the vibration of twin Merlins andGerman 88's but when they sent them to the South Pacific the humidity causedthe glue to fail after a while.But I would be very leery of using the Elmers Yellow Glue in a Piet today.After all, the life expectancy of a Piet is way longer than either theFokkeror the Mosquito in their day was expected to be.We have purchased 4 qts of the T-88 glue so far and have used only 3 qtsand about 2 oz of the fourth and we are about 85% finished. So the cost hasbeen only about $100 for the T-88. The cost of the spars FAR exceeds thatand the paint is sure to be way more as well.There are other glues but T-88 is hard to beat for ease of use and since itis gap filling, beats the heck out of resorcinal glue as far as I amconcerned.Rodger ChildsPiet in progress________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 10:42:31 -0500
Re: Pietenpol-List: stair bannister--custom cut for use as a
Original Posted By: Leo Powning
Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
Original Posted By: nle97(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
RE: Pietenpol-List: Glues
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
That is correct. I built my piet with it. Tried resorsinal too. Nowprefer t-88.Steve E.-----Original Message-----
That is correct. I built my piet with it. Tried resorsinal too. Nowprefer t-88.Steve E.-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Glues
Original Posted By: Merrill
Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
Original Posted By: "Greg Cardinal"
RE: Pietenpol-List: Glues
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Well gang,, I am using Elmer's ProBond waterproof polyurethane glue and sofar it's been great. I did a water test on it before I started the piet andhad no problems with it. Let it sit in water for a few days and was stillstrong as can be. I guess that Gorilla glue like Norm Abrams uses on PBS isthe same thing. No mixing and reasonably priced.CarlPlease visit my website atwww.megsinet.net/skycarl-----Original Message-----
Well gang,, I am using Elmer's ProBond waterproof polyurethane glue and sofar it's been great. I did a water test on it before I started the piet andhad no problems with it. Let it sit in water for a few days and was stillstrong as can be. I guess that Gorilla glue like Norm Abrams uses on PBS isthe same thing. No mixing and reasonably priced.CarlPlease visit my website atwww.megsinet.net/skycarl-----Original Message-----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
Original Posted By: "Owen Davies"
Hello Group,My information also indicates that Aerolite was developed forthe DH Mosquito. Prior to WW II, casein glue was used for a lot ofwooden airframes. In fact, we were instructed in its mixing and ap-plication at technical school as late as 1949 because, even then, it was "the approved aircraft glue" in spite of there being better ad-hesives such as the urea formaldehyde types (eg. Aerolite) avail-able.When I began construction of my Pietenpol in 1959, I used Aero-lite. Resorcinol was available then, but it was considered trickyto use by many---although it was (and still is) a very good adhe-sive approved and recommended for aircraft use. Aerolite hasfallen from favour in recent years and I am wondering if I shouldstrip the hide from my Piet again to have a look at those gluejoints. I recovered it in 1985 and found the glue joints OK, exceptfor those diagonal 3/16 inch by 1/2 inch strips in the ailerons. Afew of them were loose, and I reglued them using an epoxy glue.Both Aerolite and Resorcinol require at least 70 degrees F. dur-ing application and a good close fit with proper clamping pres-sure, and I wonder if those aileron pieces were glued at too lowa temperature during a particularly cold winter period. If I were tobuild another wooden aircraft (highly unlikely), I'd go with T88. I'veused T88 for a number of years for wooden aircraft repairs, andfor the centerline joint of violin backs and soundboards. It producesa reliable joint every time and is less critical than the adhesivesmentioned above with regard to temperature and joint fitting.Wartime aircraft had a short life expectancy and the developersof Aerolite really couldn't have known how it would stand up overa long period. My Piet has been flying for over thirty years and some of those Aerolite joints are over forty years old! The only re-assuring factor is that the climate here in Alberta, Canada is quitedry and my Piet has always been hangared. Wooden aircraft havea bad time of it in the tropics, even if the adhesives used are water-proof. Regardless of where a wooden aircraft "lives", provisionfor drainage and ventilation of the structure is vital. In the heyday of casein glue, wooden airplanes were covered withcotton or linen, both of which deteriorated within a few years and recovering operations provided frequent opportunities to inspect the stucture. Sometimes the condition of the glue joints was frighten-ing: I have seen rib capstrips together with some gussets come offwith the old fabric; essentially, the fabric cover alone was holding the pieces in place! Today, with long-lasting synthetic fabrics, we don't often get an opportunity to closely inspect the structure and itsjoints. The adhesive we use had better be a good one!So go with superior modern adhesives, like T88, that have been inuse long enough to ensure their effectiveness and longevitity. Cheers,Graham Hansen (CF-AUN)________________________________________________________________________________
Hello Group,My information also indicates that Aerolite was developed forthe DH Mosquito. Prior to WW II, casein glue was used for a lot ofwooden airframes. In fact, we were instructed in its mixing and ap-plication at technical school as late as 1949 because, even then, it was "the approved aircraft glue" in spite of there being better ad-hesives such as the urea formaldehyde types (eg. Aerolite) avail-able.When I began construction of my Pietenpol in 1959, I used Aero-lite. Resorcinol was available then, but it was considered trickyto use by many---although it was (and still is) a very good adhe-sive approved and recommended for aircraft use. Aerolite hasfallen from favour in recent years and I am wondering if I shouldstrip the hide from my Piet again to have a look at those gluejoints. I recovered it in 1985 and found the glue joints OK, exceptfor those diagonal 3/16 inch by 1/2 inch strips in the ailerons. Afew of them were loose, and I reglued them using an epoxy glue.Both Aerolite and Resorcinol require at least 70 degrees F. dur-ing application and a good close fit with proper clamping pres-sure, and I wonder if those aileron pieces were glued at too lowa temperature during a particularly cold winter period. If I were tobuild another wooden aircraft (highly unlikely), I'd go with T88. I'veused T88 for a number of years for wooden aircraft repairs, andfor the centerline joint of violin backs and soundboards. It producesa reliable joint every time and is less critical than the adhesivesmentioned above with regard to temperature and joint fitting.Wartime aircraft had a short life expectancy and the developersof Aerolite really couldn't have known how it would stand up overa long period. My Piet has been flying for over thirty years and some of those Aerolite joints are over forty years old! The only re-assuring factor is that the climate here in Alberta, Canada is quitedry and my Piet has always been hangared. Wooden aircraft havea bad time of it in the tropics, even if the adhesives used are water-proof. Regardless of where a wooden aircraft "lives", provisionfor drainage and ventilation of the structure is vital. In the heyday of casein glue, wooden airplanes were covered withcotton or linen, both of which deteriorated within a few years and recovering operations provided frequent opportunities to inspect the stucture. Sometimes the condition of the glue joints was frighten-ing: I have seen rib capstrips together with some gussets come offwith the old fabric; essentially, the fabric cover alone was holding the pieces in place! Today, with long-lasting synthetic fabrics, we don't often get an opportunity to closely inspect the structure and itsjoints. The adhesive we use had better be a good one!So go with superior modern adhesives, like T88, that have been inuse long enough to ensure their effectiveness and longevitity. Cheers,Graham Hansen (CF-AUN)________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
Original Posted By: mboynton(at)excite.com
Carl Loar said:> Well gang,, I am using Elmer's ProBond waterproof polyurethane glue and so> far it's been great. I did a water test on it before I started the pietand> had no problems with it. Let it sit in water for a few days and was still> strong as can be. I guess that Gorilla glue like Norm Abrams uses on PBSis> the same thing. No mixing and reasonably priced.Hi, folks. Newcomer to the list. I have some Piet ribs sittingout in my shop, but the project has been on hold since I decidedthat I love welding but couldn't see building a Piet out of anythingbut wood. One of these days, I'll get back to it.Carl, I'd like to see you hunt up back issues of Wooden Boat.Three or four years ago, tey did two articles about polyurethaneglue. The first one viewed it quite favorably, on the basis oflimited testing. The second did much more extensive testsand concluded that it was not suitable for boat work. That doesnot necessarily mean that it isn't adequate for airplanes (withthe possible exception of amphibians), but it couldn't hurt to getthe author's input. Sorry I can't provide the issue dates.It might be a good idea to check with the Forest ProductsLaboratory as well.Finally, there was a thread on this at wreck.aviation.homebuilt sometime back. If memory serves, one of the participants had checkedwith the manufacturers of one of the major brands -- either Excel orGorilla Glue. They specifically said that it was not intended for useas a structural glue. I'd be amazed if Elmer's didn't agree.I thought about this long and hard, as the idea of a one-part aircraftglue is awfully appealing. But my Piet ribs were stuck togetherwith T-88, and anything else I build will use either that or resorcinol.Most likely T-88, as Kevin Kimball, of the restoration Kimballs,reports that he's found loose gussets on old wing ribs assembledwith resorcinol. So far, I haven't heard of any such problemswith T-88.Owen Davies________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 14:21:39 -0800 (PST)
Carl Loar said:> Well gang,, I am using Elmer's ProBond waterproof polyurethane glue and so> far it's been great. I did a water test on it before I started the pietand> had no problems with it. Let it sit in water for a few days and was still> strong as can be. I guess that Gorilla glue like Norm Abrams uses on PBSis> the same thing. No mixing and reasonably priced.Hi, folks. Newcomer to the list. I have some Piet ribs sittingout in my shop, but the project has been on hold since I decidedthat I love welding but couldn't see building a Piet out of anythingbut wood. One of these days, I'll get back to it.Carl, I'd like to see you hunt up back issues of Wooden Boat.Three or four years ago, tey did two articles about polyurethaneglue. The first one viewed it quite favorably, on the basis oflimited testing. The second did much more extensive testsand concluded that it was not suitable for boat work. That doesnot necessarily mean that it isn't adequate for airplanes (withthe possible exception of amphibians), but it couldn't hurt to getthe author's input. Sorry I can't provide the issue dates.It might be a good idea to check with the Forest ProductsLaboratory as well.Finally, there was a thread on this at wreck.aviation.homebuilt sometime back. If memory serves, one of the participants had checkedwith the manufacturers of one of the major brands -- either Excel orGorilla Glue. They specifically said that it was not intended for useas a structural glue. I'd be amazed if Elmer's didn't agree.I thought about this long and hard, as the idea of a one-part aircraftglue is awfully appealing. But my Piet ribs were stuck togetherwith T-88, and anything else I build will use either that or resorcinol.Most likely T-88, as Kevin Kimball, of the restoration Kimballs,reports that he's found loose gussets on old wing ribs assembledwith resorcinol. So far, I haven't heard of any such problemswith T-88.Owen Davies________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 14:21:39 -0800 (PST)
Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
Original Posted By: Christian Bobka
Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
Original Posted By: Scot Copeland
Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
Original Posted By: "Greg Cardinal"
Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
Original Posted By: Scot Copeland
Scot,I read your post with great interest. I have been conducting an on-goinginformal experiment that indicates your information regarding moisturecycling and possibly UV may not be correct in reference to T-88 anyway. Ihave had a "cut off " section of my first Hatz wingtip bow whichis 8 pieces of 1/8 by 3/4 spruce laminated in a curved shape, sitting on anexterior (weather facing) window sill for just over a rear now. This is awindow under a 1 foot eve on a westfacing wall here in Texas so it has received extremes of UV, heat and cold,and a fair amount ofmoisture cycling. There is no protective coating on this part at all. Atthis point the part looksnearly as good as the day I put it there, with slight greying/aging of thewood as the only change. The glue joints show no deterioration and have heldfine through occasional "strike it on the wall" tests. Admittedlyun-scientific but my results are similar to Tony Bengelis' "parts on hisgatepost" tests he talks of in his books.I would also like to hear more about how you determined that epoxies lose40% strength at 120 degrees. I believe standard thinking is that T-88"Starts" to lose strength at 150 degrees. I havea Chem tech lab report that gives these results I believe, although I don'thave it here at work to refer to. 40% at 120 degrees would not be adequatefor my peace of mind, for Texas summers anyway. I occasionally fly theDiamond Katana all composite airplane. Part of the preflight of thataircraft is the inspection of an internal hulltemperature sensor and the temp limit is 135 degrees. Knowing the FAA, thisis conservative.----- Original Message -----
Scot,I read your post with great interest. I have been conducting an on-goinginformal experiment that indicates your information regarding moisturecycling and possibly UV may not be correct in reference to T-88 anyway. Ihave had a "cut off " section of my first Hatz wingtip bow whichis 8 pieces of 1/8 by 3/4 spruce laminated in a curved shape, sitting on anexterior (weather facing) window sill for just over a rear now. This is awindow under a 1 foot eve on a westfacing wall here in Texas so it has received extremes of UV, heat and cold,and a fair amount ofmoisture cycling. There is no protective coating on this part at all. Atthis point the part looksnearly as good as the day I put it there, with slight greying/aging of thewood as the only change. The glue joints show no deterioration and have heldfine through occasional "strike it on the wall" tests. Admittedlyun-scientific but my results are similar to Tony Bengelis' "parts on hisgatepost" tests he talks of in his books.I would also like to hear more about how you determined that epoxies lose40% strength at 120 degrees. I believe standard thinking is that T-88"Starts" to lose strength at 150 degrees. I havea Chem tech lab report that gives these results I believe, although I don'thave it here at work to refer to. 40% at 120 degrees would not be adequatefor my peace of mind, for Texas summers anyway. I occasionally fly theDiamond Katana all composite airplane. Part of the preflight of thataircraft is the inspection of an internal hulltemperature sensor and the temp limit is 135 degrees. Knowing the FAA, thisis conservative.----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
Original Posted By: nle97(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
> Pietenpol-List: Glues
Original Posted By: Leo Powning
I had a glider builder of many years introduce me to The West System. It's a great epoxy glue originally designed for marine construction. Easy to use, no smell, good working time, dries in 6-8 hrs. Available from WICKS. Good building times to you. Dave Boyd Champaign, IL>From: "Robert" >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>To: >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Glues>Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 08:22:26 -0600>>>I have a glue question that Tony B.'s books couldn't answer. I have>built wooden truss ribs using 50/50 mix epoxy (T-88? I can't remember>the name). Good stuff but its expensive. I also build cabinets and>have always use Elmers Wood Glue / "yellow glue" and the joints are>stronger than the wood (of course, this requires a clean joint line>and adequate clamping during cure).>>I don't have a good background for what is appropriate in aircraft, is>Elmers OK or is it a NO-NO? Does it fail under the vibration, react>with the covering chemicals, or age poorly or does is work fine and>last a long time?>>HELP>>>Robert Haines>Murphysboro, Illinois>>________________________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:59:57 -0800 (PST)
I had a glider builder of many years introduce me to The West System. It's a great epoxy glue originally designed for marine construction. Easy to use, no smell, good working time, dries in 6-8 hrs. Available from WICKS. Good building times to you. Dave Boyd Champaign, IL>From: "Robert" >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>To: >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Glues>Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 08:22:26 -0600>>>I have a glue question that Tony B.'s books couldn't answer. I have>built wooden truss ribs using 50/50 mix epoxy (T-88? I can't remember>the name). Good stuff but its expensive. I also build cabinets and>have always use Elmers Wood Glue / "yellow glue" and the joints are>stronger than the wood (of course, this requires a clean joint line>and adequate clamping during cure).>>I don't have a good background for what is appropriate in aircraft, is>Elmers OK or is it a NO-NO? Does it fail under the vibration, react>with the covering chemicals, or age poorly or does is work fine and>last a long time?>>HELP>>>Robert Haines>Murphysboro, Illinois>>________________________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:59:57 -0800 (PST)
Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
Original Posted By: Leo Powning
Re: Pietenpol-List: Elmer's and Pine
Original Posted By: "Shawn"
>>Group- We've got some great glues out there. If your wood>breaks and not the glue you are in business.>>Not to suggest anyone do this, but I know of a gentleman>who built a Pietenpol many years ago with Elmer's white glue>(not the furniture type like Elmer's Pro Bond that Carl Loar mentioned>which is excellent glue.) and white pine from his local lumber yard.>He flew that plane for about 10 years before stall-spinning it in. He was>fine. The plane was a mess, but gave good service using materials>that most of us wouldn't. Anything better than what he used should give>all of us peace of mind.>Correct me if I am wrong, but white pine is a FAA approved material & I dobelieve that weldwood glue is the only FAA approved glue.Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )________________________________________________________________________________
>>Group- We've got some great glues out there. If your wood>breaks and not the glue you are in business.>>Not to suggest anyone do this, but I know of a gentleman>who built a Pietenpol many years ago with Elmer's white glue>(not the furniture type like Elmer's Pro Bond that Carl Loar mentioned>which is excellent glue.) and white pine from his local lumber yard.>He flew that plane for about 10 years before stall-spinning it in. He was>fine. The plane was a mess, but gave good service using materials>that most of us wouldn't. Anything better than what he used should give>all of us peace of mind.>Correct me if I am wrong, but white pine is a FAA approved material & I dobelieve that weldwood glue is the only FAA approved glue.Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
Original Posted By:
I have a picture of the De Havilland plant in Toronto Ontario taken duringtheir WW2 production run of Mosquitos. There is a large sign on the shopwallthat reads " Whatever you do, DON'T SPARE THE GLUE ! "John Mc----- Original Message -----
I have a picture of the De Havilland plant in Toronto Ontario taken duringtheir WW2 production run of Mosquitos. There is a large sign on the shopwallthat reads " Whatever you do, DON'T SPARE THE GLUE ! "John Mc----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
Original Posted By: Ron Butcher
Re: Pietenpol-List: Elmer's and Pine
Original Posted By: John Duprey
I said:> I've attached the section of AC 43.13-1b that deals with glue.Oops. Didn't realize this list filters attachments. I'll have toread the sign-up details more carefully. The file I referred toin the original message can be found as part of Chapter 1at http://www.moneypit.net/~pratt/ac43/ . If anyone wantsjust the page or so on glue, contact me off the list, and I'llbe happy to e-mail it.Owen Davies________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 06:04:59 -0500
I said:> I've attached the section of AC 43.13-1b that deals with glue.Oops. Didn't realize this list filters attachments. I'll have toread the sign-up details more carefully. The file I referred toin the original message can be found as part of Chapter 1at http://www.moneypit.net/~pratt/ac43/ . If anyone wantsjust the page or so on glue, contact me off the list, and I'llbe happy to e-mail it.Owen Davies________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 06:04:59 -0500
> Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
Original Posted By: Leo Powning
Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
Original Posted By: Scot Copeland
Ok Scot, good to hear back from you on the subject. I meant to review myinfo, that is the Chem Tech report, but have not gotten around to it asyet. As for Katanas I agree that the 135 degree limit may be more related tothe foam than thebonding materials used, and who knows what they use to laminate it together.Tell you what, I'd kinda like to know and I'll bet they would be happy totalk about it so I will try to give them a call today. Katana is a prettygood machine, with 100 hp theacceleration on takeoff is the first thing you notice (if your a 172 driveranyway!). I'm planning on adding a sailplane ratingmyself this spring.----- Original Message -----
Ok Scot, good to hear back from you on the subject. I meant to review myinfo, that is the Chem Tech report, but have not gotten around to it asyet. As for Katanas I agree that the 135 degree limit may be more related tothe foam than thebonding materials used, and who knows what they use to laminate it together.Tell you what, I'd kinda like to know and I'll bet they would be happy totalk about it so I will try to give them a call today. Katana is a prettygood machine, with 100 hp theacceleration on takeoff is the first thing you notice (if your a 172 driveranyway!). I'm planning on adding a sailplane ratingmyself this spring.----- Original Message -----
Pietenpol-List: Glues
Original Posted By: Kip & Beth Gardner
I've been reading with great interest all the recent discussions aboutchemical safety as it applies to glues and solvents. I believe allthose who recommend considerable caution when using these materials areright on target. Corky, you mentioned butyrate as a possibly lesshazardous covering system. Be careful here; I had an A&P instructor whofelt butyrate dope thinner was just about the most effective solvent youcould find, as it contains MEK plus may other solvents. Always havelots of ventilation using that stuff.Regarding T-88 glue, I also have some of the same concerns as othergroup members. With that in mind, has anyone formed a definitiveopinion regarding Gorilla Glue, Elmer's ProBond, or other similarone-part polyurethane glues as being suitable or not suitable for use inprimary aircraft structure? It's advertised as waterproof, has somegap-filling properties, and is easier to work with than T-88. As longas it consistently makes a joint where the wood separates before theglue, why not? Anyone know of an aircraft flying with Gorilla Glue? Has anyone gotten any input from the FAA on polyurethane glue? Anyonedone any testing with this stuff?Ted________________________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 20:22:01 -0500
I've been reading with great interest all the recent discussions aboutchemical safety as it applies to glues and solvents. I believe allthose who recommend considerable caution when using these materials areright on target. Corky, you mentioned butyrate as a possibly lesshazardous covering system. Be careful here; I had an A&P instructor whofelt butyrate dope thinner was just about the most effective solvent youcould find, as it contains MEK plus may other solvents. Always havelots of ventilation using that stuff.Regarding T-88 glue, I also have some of the same concerns as othergroup members. With that in mind, has anyone formed a definitiveopinion regarding Gorilla Glue, Elmer's ProBond, or other similarone-part polyurethane glues as being suitable or not suitable for use inprimary aircraft structure? It's advertised as waterproof, has somegap-filling properties, and is easier to work with than T-88. As longas it consistently makes a joint where the wood separates before theglue, why not? Anyone know of an aircraft flying with Gorilla Glue? Has anyone gotten any input from the FAA on polyurethane glue? Anyonedone any testing with this stuff?Ted________________________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 20:22:01 -0500
Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
Original Posted By: "D.Dale Johnson"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
Original Posted By: Ron Butcher
Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
Original Posted By: "D.Dale Johnson"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues
Pietenpol-List: RE:Glues
Original Posted By: "Owen Davies"
consists of urethane foam. I would be interested in hearing from anyone> else who is doing any testing of glues.> Dick Hartwig Dick and List,I have also done some testing of Polyurethane glue. The test is:Make 3 pieces of wood about the size and shape of dominoes. Glue togetherin a stack, slide the middle piece 3/8 out one end. After curing put thesandwich in a vice endwise and close till something gives. Have done thistest about 8 or 10 times with two different brands of glue, the last onewas Probond by Elmers. The best results I could get was about 10% to 15%wood broke while 85% to 90% glue broke. Not very good.The same test with T88 results in the wood becoming mashed or crushed andthe joint never breaking. I find you have to make a sample with bigger woodor less glue surface when testing T88, and then you get close to 100% woodbreakage and 0% glue breakage, that is good.I know Roger Mann and others use this glue in airplanes. It takes allot offorce to break the joints and maybe it is strong enough, maybe evenstronger then the glues they had back in the 1930's. My advice is to testit to your own satisfaction before you use it in an aircraft.Skip, working on the ca bane for my landing gear in Atlanta.________________________________________________________________________________
consists of urethane foam. I would be interested in hearing from anyone> else who is doing any testing of glues.> Dick Hartwig Dick and List,I have also done some testing of Polyurethane glue. The test is:Make 3 pieces of wood about the size and shape of dominoes. Glue togetherin a stack, slide the middle piece 3/8 out one end. After curing put thesandwich in a vice endwise and close till something gives. Have done thistest about 8 or 10 times with two different brands of glue, the last onewas Probond by Elmers. The best results I could get was about 10% to 15%wood broke while 85% to 90% glue broke. Not very good.The same test with T88 results in the wood becoming mashed or crushed andthe joint never breaking. I find you have to make a sample with bigger woodor less glue surface when testing T88, and then you get close to 100% woodbreakage and 0% glue breakage, that is good.I know Roger Mann and others use this glue in airplanes. It takes allot offorce to break the joints and maybe it is strong enough, maybe evenstronger then the glues they had back in the 1930's. My advice is to testit to your own satisfaction before you use it in an aircraft.Skip, working on the ca bane for my landing gear in Atlanta.________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: RE:Glues
Original Posted By: "Christian Bobka"
Among other useful comments, Skip Gadd reported:> I have also done some testing of Polyurethane glue. ...> The best results I could get was about 10% to 15%> wood broke while 85% to 90% glue broke. Not very good.My apologies if this has already appeared here; there havebeen several glue discussions on various lists and newsgroupsin recent months, and I've lost track of which piece of infoshowed up in what thread. Just in case...The other issue is how well the glue stands up with time.There have been some reports that polyurethanes eventuallybecome brittle. This brings up the question of whether itwill continue to accept shock loads, such as those in a badlanding--or, worse, getting slammed by side winds.With all this talk of glues and their problems, I'm beginningto wonder whether I dare trust anything other than resorcinol.Of course, resorcinol is cheap, and it's the only structuralglue I can buy at the local hardware store, and it's not thattough to make wood joints that fit well enough to use it.Hmmm...Owen Davies________________________________________________________________________________
Among other useful comments, Skip Gadd reported:> I have also done some testing of Polyurethane glue. ...> The best results I could get was about 10% to 15%> wood broke while 85% to 90% glue broke. Not very good.My apologies if this has already appeared here; there havebeen several glue discussions on various lists and newsgroupsin recent months, and I've lost track of which piece of infoshowed up in what thread. Just in case...The other issue is how well the glue stands up with time.There have been some reports that polyurethanes eventuallybecome brittle. This brings up the question of whether itwill continue to accept shock loads, such as those in a badlanding--or, worse, getting slammed by side winds.With all this talk of glues and their problems, I'm beginningto wonder whether I dare trust anything other than resorcinol.Of course, resorcinol is cheap, and it's the only structuralglue I can buy at the local hardware store, and it's not thattough to make wood joints that fit well enough to use it.Hmmm...Owen Davies________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear question...
Original Posted By: "Gary McNeel, Jr."
Gary Mc Neel,Make sure to get the plans from Don Pietenpol and no one else.Chris bobka----- Original Message -----
Gary Mc Neel,Make sure to get the plans from Don Pietenpol and no one else.Chris bobka----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Plywood gussets
Original Posted By: "Gary McNeel, Jr."
He is in Minneapolis and participates on this list from time to time.Search the archives under okume. I will post his info again.chris bobka----- Original Message -----
He is in Minneapolis and participates on this list from time to time.Search the archives under okume. I will post his info again.chris bobka----- Original Message -----
Pietenpol-List: Glues
Original Posted By: "Oscar Zuniga"
Subject: Pietenpol-List: GluesI've read with interest the glue posts -- I'm using the West System epoxy. I've built several test joints and simply cannot break this stuff. I took a hammer to one test joint and only succeeded in breaking out the ply gusset material around the joint, but the joint still held. I also gave a test joint to one of my boys who was into weight lifting at that time. Just one day after making that joint, this kid who can squat 450 lbsand dead lift 500-plus, could not break that joint. I imagine a human cannot exert enough pressure to break that stuff anyway no matter how strong, but it sure was dramatic watching him try to pull that test joint apart... The other advantage with the West System, in addition to being easy to mix using the pumps, is that our local marine supply store (10 minutes from my house) carriesWest System epoxy. I mix it using plastic coffee container lids -- after the leftover epoxy hardens it simply cracks out of the lid and you can reuse the lid. When a lid gets too scruffy after a while, just throw it away and grab a fresh one. Took the Piet fuselage structure out of the basement the other day, mainly to take better pictures as it is hard to get good pics in the cramped workshop. Also proved that I CAN get the fuselage out of the basement -- quite easy actually, even with stairs and two doors to go through plus navigate around somejoist supports...I'll post some pics if someone can tell me how to do that...That's about if for this Saturday morning on the Upper Miss. Looks like another nice fall day but some rain moving in later...hate to say it, but there'sa mention of snow showers in the forecast for tonight and tomorrow morning...won't be long and we'll all be yearning for those hot, dry summer daysat Brodhead...Also, I got a note from Ken Perkins a few days ago -- he is home and on the mend following heart surgery. Good news! Regards to all,Fred B.La Crosse, WI________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pietenpol-List: GluesI've read with interest the glue posts -- I'm using the West System epoxy. I've built several test joints and simply cannot break this stuff. I took a hammer to one test joint and only succeeded in breaking out the ply gusset material around the joint, but the joint still held. I also gave a test joint to one of my boys who was into weight lifting at that time. Just one day after making that joint, this kid who can squat 450 lbsand dead lift 500-plus, could not break that joint. I imagine a human cannot exert enough pressure to break that stuff anyway no matter how strong, but it sure was dramatic watching him try to pull that test joint apart... The other advantage with the West System, in addition to being easy to mix using the pumps, is that our local marine supply store (10 minutes from my house) carriesWest System epoxy. I mix it using plastic coffee container lids -- after the leftover epoxy hardens it simply cracks out of the lid and you can reuse the lid. When a lid gets too scruffy after a while, just throw it away and grab a fresh one. Took the Piet fuselage structure out of the basement the other day, mainly to take better pictures as it is hard to get good pics in the cramped workshop. Also proved that I CAN get the fuselage out of the basement -- quite easy actually, even with stairs and two doors to go through plus navigate around somejoist supports...I'll post some pics if someone can tell me how to do that...That's about if for this Saturday morning on the Upper Miss. Looks like another nice fall day but some rain moving in later...hate to say it, but there'sa mention of snow showers in the forecast for tonight and tomorrow morning...won't be long and we'll all be yearning for those hot, dry summer daysat Brodhead...Also, I got a note from Ken Perkins a few days ago -- he is home and on the mend following heart surgery. Good news! Regards to all,Fred B.La Crosse, WI________________________________________________________________________________