Original Posted By: Galen Hutcheson
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Carb HeatPieters,As a very interested and concerned participant in these A-65 Piet incidents I recommend strongly that we call upon the brains, experienced and gifted on this list to try and design a carb heat system for an A-65 to replace the present heat muff marketed with the 7 AC stacks. I wish I could help but this isnot my line of work. I feel very guilty that a Piet I completed has suffered this failure fate without any prior knowledge as to this weakness. My test pilot Edwin Johnson voiced his concern several times during the test period that he was a bit concerned that the RPM drop when carb heat was applied seem too small. I removed the muff and added more surface metal inside which seemed to addmore Rpm drop. I hope someone with the knowledge and skill in this area can come up with a better exhaust system and a hotter air system. I'll forget about the ping pongballs until this problem is solved. Praise the Lord from whom all blessings flow. 2 down and nobody hurt.Corky________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:45:22 -0800 (PST)
Pietenpol-List: Carb Heat
Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb Heat
Original Posted By: "Ed Grentzer"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb HeatIn a message dated 11/28/04 10:34:25 PM Central Standard Time, lesmith(at)roanokeinternet.com writes:>Ed,I really like that idea. I thought about doing that, but I've never seen, or heard of it. However, nothing is free. The problems I see with this set up, besides the extra work, is that the muff will chafe on the fins, and the engine will ingest the chafe, or any rust that builds up as a result of the welding. I suppose one could solve these challenges by very carefully settingup the outer muff so there is no way for it to ever touch the fins, and by doing some type of ceramic coating on the exhaust pipe, before installing the outer muff.Does anyone know if there is fins on any certified exhaust pipes ?Chuck G.________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb HeatIn a message dated 11/28/04 10:34:25 PM Central Standard Time, lesmith(at)roanokeinternet.com writes:>Ed,I really like that idea. I thought about doing that, but I've never seen, or heard of it. However, nothing is free. The problems I see with this set up, besides the extra work, is that the muff will chafe on the fins, and the engine will ingest the chafe, or any rust that builds up as a result of the welding. I suppose one could solve these challenges by very carefully settingup the outer muff so there is no way for it to ever touch the fins, and by doing some type of ceramic coating on the exhaust pipe, before installing the outer muff.Does anyone know if there is fins on any certified exhaust pipes ?Chuck G.________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb Heat
Original Posted By: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
On the carb ice heat muff thing, I recall reading Tony Bingelis suggesting wrappingdoor springs around the exhaust stacks under the heat muff. Has any onetried this?.Alex S.-------------- Original message -------------- > > In a message dated 11/28/04 10:34:25 PM Central Standard Time, > lesmith(at)roanokeinternet.com writes: > > where the exhaust tubing that is encased in the muff has fins welded to > it. >> > > Ed, > I really like that idea. I thought about doing that, but I've never seen, or> heard of it. However, nothing is free. The problems I see with this set up, > besides the extra work, is that the muff will chafe on the fins, and the > engine will ingest the chafe, or any rust that builds up as a result of the > welding. I suppose one could solve these challenges by very carefully setting> up > the outer muff so there is no way for it to ever touch the fins, and by doing> some type of ceramic coating on the exhaust pipe, before installing the outer> muff. > Does anyone know if there is fins on any certified exhaust pipes ? > > Chuck G. > > > > > > > > On thecarb ice heat muff thing, I recall reading Tony Bingelis suggestingwrapping door springs around the exhaust stacks under the heat muff.Has any one tried this?.Alex S.-------------- Original message -------------- -- Pietenpol-Listmessage posted by: Rcaprd(at)aol.com In a messagedated 11/28/04 10:34:25 PM Central Standard Time, lesmith(at)roanokeinternet.comwrites: I have seen examples of heat exchangers(that's what a heat muff is) where the exhaust tubing that is encasedin the muff has fins welded to it. Ed, I really like that idea. I thought about doing that, but I've neverseen, or heard of it. However, nothing is free. The problems I seewith this set up, besides the extra work, is that the muff will chafeon the fins, and the engine will ingest the chafe, or any rust thatbuilds up as a result of the welding. I suppose one could solve thesechallenges by very carefully setting up <B________________________________________________________________________________
On the carb ice heat muff thing, I recall reading Tony Bingelis suggesting wrappingdoor springs around the exhaust stacks under the heat muff. Has any onetried this?.Alex S.-------------- Original message -------------- > > In a message dated 11/28/04 10:34:25 PM Central Standard Time, > lesmith(at)roanokeinternet.com writes: > > where the exhaust tubing that is encased in the muff has fins welded to > it. >> > > Ed, > I really like that idea. I thought about doing that, but I've never seen, or> heard of it. However, nothing is free. The problems I see with this set up, > besides the extra work, is that the muff will chafe on the fins, and the > engine will ingest the chafe, or any rust that builds up as a result of the > welding. I suppose one could solve these challenges by very carefully setting> up > the outer muff so there is no way for it to ever touch the fins, and by doing> some type of ceramic coating on the exhaust pipe, before installing the outer> muff. > Does anyone know if there is fins on any certified exhaust pipes ? > > Chuck G. > > > > > > > > On thecarb ice heat muff thing, I recall reading Tony Bingelis suggestingwrapping door springs around the exhaust stacks under the heat muff.Has any one tried this?.Alex S.-------------- Original message -------------- -- Pietenpol-Listmessage posted by: Rcaprd(at)aol.com In a messagedated 11/28/04 10:34:25 PM Central Standard Time, lesmith(at)roanokeinternet.comwrites: I have seen examples of heat exchangers(that's what a heat muff is) where the exhaust tubing that is encasedin the muff has fins welded to it. Ed, I really like that idea. I thought about doing that, but I've neverseen, or heard of it. However, nothing is free. The problems I seewith this set up, besides the extra work, is that the muff will chafeon the fins, and the engine will ingest the chafe, or any rust thatbuilds up as a result of the welding. I suppose one could solve thesechallenges by very carefully setting up <B________________________________________________________________________________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Carb Heat
Original Posted By: "Phillips, Jack"
Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb Heat
Original Posted By: Michael D Cuy
Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb Heat
Original Posted By: Prange Larry J PSNS
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb HeatI visited with my dad today and mentioned this rash of forced landings due to carb ice. (My dad retired with 5 type ratings, 25,000 hours and an A&P license and was a crop duster after WW2) I figure anyone who has flown this longand lived to tell about it has some merit in their observations about flying experience and things mechanical.Although he is 85, he remembers problems associated with carb ice as being more prone to car gas and he said that 100LL tends to be safer than mogas whenhumidity levels are high. He started mentioning something technical, but I hadto dodge a deer on the road and my mind wandered off the subject matter...I wonder if the previous problems of the last few months with downed Piets were associated with folks who were using mogas?________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb HeatI visited with my dad today and mentioned this rash of forced landings due to carb ice. (My dad retired with 5 type ratings, 25,000 hours and an A&P license and was a crop duster after WW2) I figure anyone who has flown this longand lived to tell about it has some merit in their observations about flying experience and things mechanical.Although he is 85, he remembers problems associated with carb ice as being more prone to car gas and he said that 100LL tends to be safer than mogas whenhumidity levels are high. He started mentioning something technical, but I hadto dodge a deer on the road and my mind wandered off the subject matter...I wonder if the previous problems of the last few months with downed Piets were associated with folks who were using mogas?________________________________________________________________________________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Carb Heat
Original Posted By: "Eric Williams"
Here is what those stainless steel wool scrubbing pads look like after youpull them out of your carburetor:Jack PhillipsIcarus PlummetHi guys:I know of a couple of ways to get some extra heat from your muff: One wayis to stuff your muff with some stainless steel scrub bud pads, like theones used for doing dishes or another way is to use some door spring andwrap the exhaust pipe before putting on your muff.Mike LutherNX1953M________________________________________________________________________________
Here is what those stainless steel wool scrubbing pads look like after youpull them out of your carburetor:Jack PhillipsIcarus PlummetHi guys:I know of a couple of ways to get some extra heat from your muff: One wayis to stuff your muff with some stainless steel scrub bud pads, like theones used for doing dishes or another way is to use some door spring andwrap the exhaust pipe before putting on your muff.Mike LutherNX1953M________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb Heat
Original Posted By: "Oscar Zuniga"
Pieters,My experience with mogas in my RV-3 was vapor lock. When it got near 72 this occurred.Found that 5 gal. of avgas with 20 gal of mogas stopped it. Never hadcarb ice with the Lycoming 0-320.Alex S.-------------- Original message -------------- I visited with my dad today and mentioned this rash of forced landings due to carbice. (My dad retired with 5 type ratings, 25,000 hours and an A&P licenseand was a crop duster after WW2) I figure anyone who has flown this long and livedto tell about it has some merit in their observations about flying experienceand things mechanical. Although he is 85, he remembers problems associated with carb ice as being moreprone to car gas and he said that 100LL tends to be safer than mogas when humiditylevels are high. He started mentioning something technical, but I had tododge a deer on the road and my mind wandered off the subject matter... I wonder if the previous problems of the last few months with downed Piets wereassociated with folks who were using mogas? Pieters,My experience with mogas in my RV-3 was vapor lock. When it got near72 this occurred. Found that 5 gal. of avgas with 20 gal of mogas stoppedit. Never had carb ice with the Lycoming 0-320.Alex S.-------------- Original message -------------- I visited with my dad today and mentioned thisrash of forced landings due to carb ice. (My dad retired with 5 type ratings,25,000 hours and an AP license and was a crop duster after WW2) I figureanyone who has flown this long and lived to tell about it has some merit intheir observations about flying experience and things mechanical. Althoughhe is 85, he remembers problems associated with carb ice as being more proneto car gas and he said that 100LL tends to be safer than mogas when humiditylevels are high. He started mentioning something technical, but I had to dodgea deer on the road and my mind wandered off the subject matter... Iwonder if the previous problems of the last few months with downed Piets wereassociated with folks who were using mogas?________________________________________________________________________________
Pieters,My experience with mogas in my RV-3 was vapor lock. When it got near 72 this occurred.Found that 5 gal. of avgas with 20 gal of mogas stopped it. Never hadcarb ice with the Lycoming 0-320.Alex S.-------------- Original message -------------- I visited with my dad today and mentioned this rash of forced landings due to carbice. (My dad retired with 5 type ratings, 25,000 hours and an A&P licenseand was a crop duster after WW2) I figure anyone who has flown this long and livedto tell about it has some merit in their observations about flying experienceand things mechanical. Although he is 85, he remembers problems associated with carb ice as being moreprone to car gas and he said that 100LL tends to be safer than mogas when humiditylevels are high. He started mentioning something technical, but I had tododge a deer on the road and my mind wandered off the subject matter... I wonder if the previous problems of the last few months with downed Piets wereassociated with folks who were using mogas? Pieters,My experience with mogas in my RV-3 was vapor lock. When it got near72 this occurred. Found that 5 gal. of avgas with 20 gal of mogas stoppedit. Never had carb ice with the Lycoming 0-320.Alex S.-------------- Original message -------------- I visited with my dad today and mentioned thisrash of forced landings due to carb ice. (My dad retired with 5 type ratings,25,000 hours and an AP license and was a crop duster after WW2) I figureanyone who has flown this long and lived to tell about it has some merit intheir observations about flying experience and things mechanical. Althoughhe is 85, he remembers problems associated with carb ice as being more proneto car gas and he said that 100LL tends to be safer than mogas when humiditylevels are high. He started mentioning something technical, but I had to dodgea deer on the road and my mind wandered off the subject matter... Iwonder if the previous problems of the last few months with downed Piets wereassociated with folks who were using mogas?________________________________________________________________________________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Carb Heat
Original Posted By: Clif Dawson
Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb Heat
Original Posted By: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb HeatIn a message dated 11/29/04 8:39:06 AM Central Standard Time, luther(at)gci.net writes:> This is how Bernard Pietenpol did the Model A engine, leaving the carb heat on, all the time. Again, the problem I see with this arragnement is thatthe spring will chafe on the exhaust pipe or muff, and the engine will ingest the rust. I still like the idea of having fins on the exhaust pipe, inside the muff, but not touching the muff. The fins would be maybe 1/4" high, and long enough where they couldn't get to the carb, even if they did come off. I was considering how to attach the fins, and I think braizing them on would be betterthan welding. Then - BAM !! It hit me...cover the whole pipe inside the muffwith a light coat of brass. No more rust. Has anyone tried coating a piece of thin steel with brass (braizing) ?Chuck G.________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb HeatIn a message dated 11/29/04 8:39:06 AM Central Standard Time, luther(at)gci.net writes:> This is how Bernard Pietenpol did the Model A engine, leaving the carb heat on, all the time. Again, the problem I see with this arragnement is thatthe spring will chafe on the exhaust pipe or muff, and the engine will ingest the rust. I still like the idea of having fins on the exhaust pipe, inside the muff, but not touching the muff. The fins would be maybe 1/4" high, and long enough where they couldn't get to the carb, even if they did come off. I was considering how to attach the fins, and I think braizing them on would be betterthan welding. Then - BAM !! It hit me...cover the whole pipe inside the muffwith a light coat of brass. No more rust. Has anyone tried coating a piece of thin steel with brass (braizing) ?Chuck G.________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb Heat
Original Posted By: Ed Smith
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb HeatI visited with Sky King again this morning. He advised that mogas isn't as highly refined as avgas. One of the culprits he said in mogas is there is something left over in the refining process akin to butadyrine (as in butane) andanother component similar to those found in propane, and these "ingredients" arenot found in avgas because avgas has gone through more refining stages.For anyone familiar with propane and butane (butane is hard to find these days BTW) the are very cold when released into the atmosphere, thus when they arepresent in very small quantities, they can accelerate and exacerbate icing in the venturi of a carb.Improvements in heat muffs is a must but using avgas, or at least a mixture of it with mogas gives you an advantage over straight use of mogas.________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:51:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb HeatI visited with Sky King again this morning. He advised that mogas isn't as highly refined as avgas. One of the culprits he said in mogas is there is something left over in the refining process akin to butadyrine (as in butane) andanother component similar to those found in propane, and these "ingredients" arenot found in avgas because avgas has gone through more refining stages.For anyone familiar with propane and butane (butane is hard to find these days BTW) the are very cold when released into the atmosphere, thus when they arepresent in very small quantities, they can accelerate and exacerbate icing in the venturi of a carb.Improvements in heat muffs is a must but using avgas, or at least a mixture of it with mogas gives you an advantage over straight use of mogas.________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:51:14 -0500
Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb Heat
Original Posted By: Galen Hutcheson
Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb Heat
Original Posted By: Galen Hutcheson
Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: Carb Heat
Original Posted By: harvey rule
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: Carb HeatTrying to start the engine with the carb heat on, which should be permanently on with a Model A powered Piet, shouldn't have an effect on starting. There is little resistance to the intake air when hand propping...unless you've actually got an air filter in the intake and it is extremely dirty. Assuming you'vegot air and fuel (and no water contamination) to the engine, then the only thing left would be ignition --- either weak or no spark or the timing is off...or weak compression. That's how I'd approach a hard starting engine...my2 cents...if the carb float is off it may flood or it should at least fire, thoughit may quit...Fred B.La Crosse, WI________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:52:09 -0500
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: Carb HeatTrying to start the engine with the carb heat on, which should be permanently on with a Model A powered Piet, shouldn't have an effect on starting. There is little resistance to the intake air when hand propping...unless you've actually got an air filter in the intake and it is extremely dirty. Assuming you'vegot air and fuel (and no water contamination) to the engine, then the only thing left would be ignition --- either weak or no spark or the timing is off...or weak compression. That's how I'd approach a hard starting engine...my2 cents...if the carb float is off it may flood or it should at least fire, thoughit may quit...Fred B.La Crosse, WI________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:52:09 -0500