Original Posted By: santiago morete
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Elevator and Rudder Control HornsPieters,Would like your thoughts and input on the following situation. Am presently rigging my elevators and rudder. On the horn plans the attach holes are 3 1/2 in from center for the elevator and 5 in from center on the rudder. This requires an abnormal movement, in my opinion, on the pedals. I have found that3 1/2 to 4 in on the rudder horn holes from center to be sufficient. I had other Pieters comment that it was impossible to get enough rudder to control themachine in strong crosswind landings and TO.Nathan Moss felt after flying 41CC for about 8 hours it could do with less throw on all the controls, stick and pedal movement. He said it was not like flying a Waco UPF-7.where the pilot needed to be 6ft 6 to fully activate the pedals.Will probably set the pedal ( rudder bar ) for 2 in forward and 2 in aft of center and drill the attach holes for control cables 4 in from center on the rudder horn.Would appreciate your comments other than the usual "Don't change the plans"Corky and Nathan Moss________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 20:04:58 -0300 (ART)
Pietenpol-List: Elevator and Rudder Control Horns
Re: Pietenpol-List: Elevator and Rudder Control Horns
Original Posted By: clawler(at)ptd.net
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Elevator and Rudder Control HornsCorky and Nathan, Nathan commented that the plans set up felt like an abnormal amount of movement. I'm curious - What did he mean by this ? During the landing and takeoff, it is completely normal to be dancing on the rudder. For the rudder, it seems he meant it needed more deflection of the control surface with the same amount of movement of the rudder bar. This is what you will get, if you move the holes on the horn from 5" outboard of the hinge, to 3 1/2 to 4" outboard of the hinge. A change in distance of 1 to 1 1/2 on the rudder horn, is a considerable amount. The trade off will be a very sensitive rudder in cruise flight. You'll be constantly chasing the ball back and forth. I believe you have rudder pedals, as opposed to the rudder bar. Do you already have the pointon the rudder pedal located ? You can also alter this ratio with that attach point. Before you drill the holes, I would suggest you somehow clamp the cables in the anticipated position, and carefully try it out while sitting in thecockpit. Just remember to place the rudder stops to keep the rudder from touching the flippers (elevators). My own experience with well over 200 hours in my Piet, is that I have NEVER ran out of rudder authority. When entering a turn, I lead the turn witha tiny bit of rudder, which helps cooridinate the turn. Adverse Yaw is a way oflife with vintage designs. Even in my cross country flights, it is seldom that I have to make landings in severe crosswinds. There is almost always a place to put 'er down with less than a 10 kt crosswind component. If need be,I land a little bit diagonally on the runway, while keeping the upwind wing low,and touching down on the upwind wheel. The rule of thumb for maximum crosswind component is 25% of the stall speed. If it is more than a 10 kt crosswindcomponent, you don't have any business out there in those conditions. As for pitch control, the power setting is an effective pitch control due to the penduleum effect. This becomes even more pronounced, with the longer cabane struts. In my opinion, I have found harmony with all the flight control surfaces, and wouldn't change a thing. I did about 6 or 8 landings this evening, with about 15 to 18 down the runway. By dragging the tail in before the mains touch, is the only way I can get a decent full stall landing. I didn't have todo that when I just had a tail SKID back there. With a tail wheel back there, it raises the tail to a point where the wing is not done flying yet, in the 3 point attitude, and a couple of bounces are in order. In windy crosswind conditions, a wheel landing is preferred. I have also found a wheel landing ispreferred when I have a passenger on board, or when landing on a hard surface runway.Chuck G.enjoying the challenges of the wind, however, I refuse to fly if a tornado is near by...________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 08:29:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Elevator and Rudder Control HornsCorky and Nathan, Nathan commented that the plans set up felt like an abnormal amount of movement. I'm curious - What did he mean by this ? During the landing and takeoff, it is completely normal to be dancing on the rudder. For the rudder, it seems he meant it needed more deflection of the control surface with the same amount of movement of the rudder bar. This is what you will get, if you move the holes on the horn from 5" outboard of the hinge, to 3 1/2 to 4" outboard of the hinge. A change in distance of 1 to 1 1/2 on the rudder horn, is a considerable amount. The trade off will be a very sensitive rudder in cruise flight. You'll be constantly chasing the ball back and forth. I believe you have rudder pedals, as opposed to the rudder bar. Do you already have the pointon the rudder pedal located ? You can also alter this ratio with that attach point. Before you drill the holes, I would suggest you somehow clamp the cables in the anticipated position, and carefully try it out while sitting in thecockpit. Just remember to place the rudder stops to keep the rudder from touching the flippers (elevators). My own experience with well over 200 hours in my Piet, is that I have NEVER ran out of rudder authority. When entering a turn, I lead the turn witha tiny bit of rudder, which helps cooridinate the turn. Adverse Yaw is a way oflife with vintage designs. Even in my cross country flights, it is seldom that I have to make landings in severe crosswinds. There is almost always a place to put 'er down with less than a 10 kt crosswind component. If need be,I land a little bit diagonally on the runway, while keeping the upwind wing low,and touching down on the upwind wheel. The rule of thumb for maximum crosswind component is 25% of the stall speed. If it is more than a 10 kt crosswindcomponent, you don't have any business out there in those conditions. As for pitch control, the power setting is an effective pitch control due to the penduleum effect. This becomes even more pronounced, with the longer cabane struts. In my opinion, I have found harmony with all the flight control surfaces, and wouldn't change a thing. I did about 6 or 8 landings this evening, with about 15 to 18 down the runway. By dragging the tail in before the mains touch, is the only way I can get a decent full stall landing. I didn't have todo that when I just had a tail SKID back there. With a tail wheel back there, it raises the tail to a point where the wing is not done flying yet, in the 3 point attitude, and a couple of bounces are in order. In windy crosswind conditions, a wheel landing is preferred. I have also found a wheel landing ispreferred when I have a passenger on board, or when landing on a hard surface runway.Chuck G.enjoying the challenges of the wind, however, I refuse to fly if a tornado is near by...________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 08:29:46 -0400
RE: Pietenpol-List: Steve's trip--tell us more !
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Mike,Sorry I missed your request for pictures, I missed a few messages that day.Here are the pictures DJ took, and the link below shows pictures I took on aCOLD (-3*F) Indiana morning (when you are from TX, that is WAY too cold).http://www.wotelectronics.com/flying/GN ... %20GN1/I'm working (OK I still need to start) on a page that will have all of my"trip stories" and pictures, maybe I can get that done tonight. It was agreat trip, and I met some of the nicest people you could ever meet.I spent nearly 4hrs in my new plane yesterday, and I'm going back thisafternoon to give some rides to friends. I'm having a great time if youcan't tell!Steve RuseCoppell, TX (DFW)N6383J-----Original Message-----
Mike,Sorry I missed your request for pictures, I missed a few messages that day.Here are the pictures DJ took, and the link below shows pictures I took on aCOLD (-3*F) Indiana morning (when you are from TX, that is WAY too cold).http://www.wotelectronics.com/flying/GN ... %20GN1/I'm working (OK I still need to start) on a page that will have all of my"trip stories" and pictures, maybe I can get that done tonight. It was agreat trip, and I met some of the nicest people you could ever meet.I spent nearly 4hrs in my new plane yesterday, and I'm going back thisafternoon to give some rides to friends. I'm having a great time if youcan't tell!Steve RuseCoppell, TX (DFW)N6383J-----Original Message-----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Elevator and Rudder Control Horns
Original Posted By: TRichmo9(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Elevator and Rudder Control HornsIn a message dated 4/24/05 12:35:47 A.M. Central Daylight Time, Rcaprd(at)aol.com writes:Corky and Nathan, Nathan commented that the plans set up felt like an abnormal amount of movement. I'm curious - What did he mean by this ? During the landing and take off, it is completely normal to be dancing on the rudder. For the rudder,it seems he meant it needed more deflection of the control surface with the same amount of movement of the rudder bar. This is what you will get, if youmove the holes on the horn from 5" outboard of the hinge, to 3 1/2 to 4" outboard of the hinge. A change in distance of 1 to 1 1/2 on the rudder horn,is a considerable amount. The trade off will be a very sensitive rudder in cruise flight. You'll be constantly chasing the ball back and forth. I believe you have rudder pedals, as opposed to the rudder bar. Do you alreadyhave the point on the rudder pedal located ? You can also alter this ratio with that attach point. Before you drill the holes, I would suggest you somehow clamp the cables in the anticipated position, and carefully try it out while sitting in the cockpit. Just remember to place the rudder stops to keep the rudder from touching the flippers (elevators). My own experience with well over 200 hours in my Piet, is that I have NEVER ran out of rudder authority. When entering a turn, I lead the turn witha tiny bit of rudder, which helps cooridinate the turn. Adverse Yaw is a wayof life with vintage designs. Even in my cross country flights, it is seldom that I have to make landings in severe crosswinds. There is almost alwaysa place to put 'er down with less than a 10 kt crosswind component. If need be, I land a little bit diagonally on the runway, while keeping the upwind wing low, and touching down on the upwind wheel. The rule of thumb for maximumcrosswind component is 25% of the stall speed. If it is more than a 10 kt crosswind component, you don't have any business out there in those conditions. As for pitch control, the power setting is an effective pitch control due to the penduleum effect. This becomes even more pronounced, with the longer cabane struts. In my opinion, I have found harmony with all the flight control surfaces, and wouldn't change a thing. I did about 6 or 8 landings this evening,with about 15 to 18 down the runway. By dragging the tail in before the mainstouch, is the only way I can get a decent full stall landing. I didn't have to do that when I just had a tail SKID back there. With a tail wheel back there, it raises the tail to a point where the wing is not done flying yet, inthe 3 point attitude, and a couple of bounces are in order. In windy crosswind conditions, a wheel landing is preferred. I have also found a wheellanding is preferred when I have a passenger on board, or when landing on a hardsurface runway.Chuck G.enjoying the challenges of the wind, however, I refuse to fly if a tornado is near by...amen on the tornado chuck i live in oklahoma tom________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Elevator and Rudder Control HornsIn a message dated 4/24/05 12:35:47 A.M. Central Daylight Time, Rcaprd(at)aol.com writes:Corky and Nathan, Nathan commented that the plans set up felt like an abnormal amount of movement. I'm curious - What did he mean by this ? During the landing and take off, it is completely normal to be dancing on the rudder. For the rudder,it seems he meant it needed more deflection of the control surface with the same amount of movement of the rudder bar. This is what you will get, if youmove the holes on the horn from 5" outboard of the hinge, to 3 1/2 to 4" outboard of the hinge. A change in distance of 1 to 1 1/2 on the rudder horn,is a considerable amount. The trade off will be a very sensitive rudder in cruise flight. You'll be constantly chasing the ball back and forth. I believe you have rudder pedals, as opposed to the rudder bar. Do you alreadyhave the point on the rudder pedal located ? You can also alter this ratio with that attach point. Before you drill the holes, I would suggest you somehow clamp the cables in the anticipated position, and carefully try it out while sitting in the cockpit. Just remember to place the rudder stops to keep the rudder from touching the flippers (elevators). My own experience with well over 200 hours in my Piet, is that I have NEVER ran out of rudder authority. When entering a turn, I lead the turn witha tiny bit of rudder, which helps cooridinate the turn. Adverse Yaw is a wayof life with vintage designs. Even in my cross country flights, it is seldom that I have to make landings in severe crosswinds. There is almost alwaysa place to put 'er down with less than a 10 kt crosswind component. If need be, I land a little bit diagonally on the runway, while keeping the upwind wing low, and touching down on the upwind wheel. The rule of thumb for maximumcrosswind component is 25% of the stall speed. If it is more than a 10 kt crosswind component, you don't have any business out there in those conditions. As for pitch control, the power setting is an effective pitch control due to the penduleum effect. This becomes even more pronounced, with the longer cabane struts. In my opinion, I have found harmony with all the flight control surfaces, and wouldn't change a thing. I did about 6 or 8 landings this evening,with about 15 to 18 down the runway. By dragging the tail in before the mainstouch, is the only way I can get a decent full stall landing. I didn't have to do that when I just had a tail SKID back there. With a tail wheel back there, it raises the tail to a point where the wing is not done flying yet, inthe 3 point attitude, and a couple of bounces are in order. In windy crosswind conditions, a wheel landing is preferred. I have also found a wheellanding is preferred when I have a passenger on board, or when landing on a hardsurface runway.Chuck G.enjoying the challenges of the wind, however, I refuse to fly if a tornado is near by...amen on the tornado chuck i live in oklahoma tom________________________________________________________________________________